This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
And happy young people have more to do in their lives than obsess over the tinniest bits of difference in some audio reproduction spectrum. That combined, Michael Green cannot be more right.
Michael Green (once you come back),
Reading a few of your last posts, I realized you might have picked a wrong career. It is too narrow of a spectrum of followers for tuning and tweaking. Being a leader of some new church denomination may be way more lucrative. High End Audio is surely dying, but televangelists are doing well.
Things come and go all of the time. If this forum dies, so what? Audio is your gravy, so I understand why you would get upset if it goes away. Heck, you have been here selling since your first post. Every time the bow wave dies down, you come back. However, your solution to what you perceive to be the problem is exactly why this country is in the dire decline it is in. If you don't like what someone has to say, then they should not be able to say it. Ban them, ban them all! This is a country of free speech, irrespective if you like what is being said or not. You can always just go back to your safe space where you are king and stay there. Or you can come here and participate where people are free to have differing opinions. It is up to you. Having five or six different forums where everyone sings your version of kum baghya has no interest for me.
Yep, this audio forum should run wide until it closes it's door, and it will. See you later friendly audiophile exchanges. Sorry you got mugged while you were here.
Sorry Golf but that's why HEA is in dire decline. Grumpy old men are not the happy future of HEA. Not convinced come back a year from now and lets post here.
See ya gang, thanks for visiting and all the different opinions. I'll see you in a month or so.
If any one should be banned, it is the person calling for censorship in the forums. I have followed this train wreck of a thread from the beginning. There has been plenty of trolling from both sides. Heck, the OP admitted at one point to trolling and his trolling has continued throughout. He just wants to decide what style of trolling is allowed. He has done a fabulous job of providing non answers from the very beginning. There is no way any sort of censorship should be tolerated here. If you don't agree with the OPs sort of thinking and posting style, he feels you should be banned. No way. There are plenty of the people posting here that often post things that I don't care for. So what, I just move on. MG already has an entire forum where he gets to call the shots. Now he wants the same here, there and everywhere. Toontown for everyone, everywhere, all of the time. No other thinking or conversation is allowed except what you deem proper. BTW, in all of the time I have been a member here, I have yet to see anyone that deserves to be banned and that includes MG. However, if he wants to be the one always calling the shots, deciding who can say what and how, he should go back to where he came from. No censorship is wanted or needed here.
Something’s obviously wrong with Costco-emoji. We don’t really know what it is. He exhibits a lot of Aspergers’s symptoms, but so much more. Once he sinks his teeth into you, he never lets go. Think of him as our pet wolverine.
LOL uberwaltz, like I said to Glupson, don’t pull me into this stuff. This forum should be getting rid of internet trolling period. If Audiogon nailed about 3 of these guys you would see things change a lot around here. The rest of you who feed the trolls should start putting your hobby first.
Life is too much fun and some here seriously need to park their keyboards for a while and deal with their issues.
Now to the fun stuff. Last night I talked to the reviewer of my latest review of the Rev6 speakers (very cool guy). Nice review I appreciate it! I also got to see what’s happening in Malaysia with my Bare Essence "White" speaker wire another cool thing. Then this morning I woke up to this rumble outside my window. There’s Sam (does the over seas shipping for me) stepping out of his new AMG C43 (black on black) gorgeous! Life is good, unless you turn it bad.
Guys, this hate thing is for little children. Don’t bother pulling me in on your little game cause everyone can read. Negative people will always be there to jump in the middle, and these trolls have no turn off swift. It’s the only way they can be relevant. We shouldn’t be feeding them past saying "you need to go".
If you don’t draw a line, it’s only a matter of time before this forum will go the way of TAS. I hope that doesn’t happen but you guys are pushing this place closer to the edge every day and it doesn’t need to be.
If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion. This kind of stuff is REALLY what is killing these forums imho. This is not simple light hearted banter.
So why don't you pair just take it to pms where you can hurl insults at each other all day long instead of messing up an admittedly already messed up thread.
I wouldn’t be to happy with you either pulling that kind of stunt. I would hardly call 8:30pm all night. Kosst the next time you go attacking ones career consider the consciences.
And the next time you call me a clown JC Griffin will be getting another message asking him why he has you running loose at the mouth about him on a public forum.
I know, I said a few pages ago that I would go sit in the corner. But this banter reminds me of my days long ago in the fraternity I belonged to in college for a couple of years (sophomore and junior). By my senior year, I’d had enough of the toga parties with the food fights and next morning the front and back doors left open and the neighborhood dogs in the dining room eating all the floored food. And the drunken, mysogynistic crap from the "emboldened" brothers who thought they were god’s gift to women. It was all trolls under the bridge. I left my senior year and they asked me why and my answer, perhaps juvenile of me, was that I had outgrown it. But, I had, and I couldn’t express it in another way. It just seemed such a waste of intelligence and creativity to dumb down the quality education we were putting the finishing touches on. It amazes me to this day that the Greek system is still alive and kicking in 2018, even though many universities have done away with it, and many chapters have been suspended for hazing. But, being the only boy in a six kid family, other than signing up for the military, and I did consider that for a time, that was my one chance to live in a 100% male environment for a couple of years. At least I got that experience. Wasn’t what I had hoped for or expected.
So, what’s my point? I read these darts, jabs and veiled threats, and the one ups you guys bestow on one another, and I wonder, is this the "talk" that constitutes a self-admitted group of audio enthusiasts who have ultimately become so bored with everything, that it is now frat house slobbery?
What happened to the suggested empiricism of the OT? Or, am I accurate in concluding that that aspect died pages ago and who cares anyway what this is supposed to be all about?
I think that Michael Green is correct about his prediction. On the other hand, it is not that hard to predict it. Nothing lasts forever and Internet forums have their natural course, too.
Newsflash, in a few billion years the Earth will be no more.
kosst, actually I respectfully disagree. Quoting MG "A few weeks ago a member here had me take a look at the activity here, pointing out how many different posters were posting on any given subject years ago and how now there are the same posters on every thread."
Actually, this is also what I see happening, not everyone for sure, but now there is a smallish group of ego driven posters that are the new "experts" on all things. I wouldn't listen to any of them in person, just because of who they are, or to be precise, how important they need to think they are.
MG, you have seemingly thought through the issues related to the maturing/aging of the HEA industry. Your post reads like a combination obituary/inspirational talk with the sum equivalent being, crap happens. Stereophile, Audiogon, MG, or the rest of us have no power to alter the progression of technology, societal changes, or HEA. Enjoy the music.
I'm glad Stereophile was brought up. Something I have done over the past several years is watch the tide of readers and posters rise or drop. While DIY and computer audio forums are holding their own and bringing in younger crowds. HEA forums are in serious decline just as the expensive products are.
Who would have ever guessed that a forum hosted by TAS would end up folding? Stereophile's forum is almost gone or at least a graveyard. This forum is now on the decline. A few weeks ago a member here had me take a look at the activity here, pointing out how many different posters were posting on any given subject years ago and how now there are the same posters on every thread. I was not surprised, but did wonder why Audiogon would allow this to happen. Maybe they are not paying attention or maybe they are going to let it go until it is too late. Or maybe they have plans in the works behind the scenes. However it works out this forum is hemorrhaging members.
The world has changed and people's priorities have moved on from being involved in the fascination of internet trolling. As I said on Stereophile "if you don't turn away you will die" I also said that to JA directly. The Stereophile forum in a few month's of that became a graveyard. The old saying goes "it's not a matter of if but when".
People are leaving here to sell on Ebay, Audiomart and several other places. It can be debated why, but by the time that debate has concluded the buyers & sellers here will already be gone. I have no doubt at all that the owners of this site are looking to what the future brings. They've got to be aware of the market decline, but what I wonder is are they able to move from negative to positive? Whoever grabs the positive ring first will be the winner.
As for me, I'm sticking with the positives. The negative folks can continue to die off or self implode. They'll go down kicking a screaming and trying to pull down as many as they can, but the end result will be the same. To those folks I say, "Nah". How many senior citizens can you turn from positive to negative? Who cares. For every one negative audiophile there are a hundred positive ones. I've said, and continue to say, "everyone paints their own picture".
I hope Audiogon is able to find that positive place. I know the on-lookers here desire that, but for how long will the interest stay here while trolls run free? Like on TAS and Stereophile, I don't think long.
Katie You do get your wires crossed quite a few times don’t you? I have plenty of "idea" what you are talking about, the power of the internet, you know like Google search...duh. And yes been paying plenty of attention and from an early stage it was obvious you were taking no sides at all but not really provoking MG in any way. Which was interesting. And definitely not "cautioning you". I would never be so bold...or waste my time with that. The coffee is quite good this morning actually, thank you for asking.
What a sensitive young man. 😛 You have no idea what I’m talking about yet you’re what, cautioning me? How rude! If you’d been paying attention you would have notice do have not attacked MG at all while he’s been here. I gave him free passage. Yet he has attacked me directly and indirectly at least a few times. Wake up and smell the coffee. ☕️
Just so there are no misconceptions, and in the interest of full disclosure, MG and your humble narrator engaged in debates and discussions on a range of topics almost daily for a period of two years over on Stereophile magazine forum, which was then quite active. That all stopped a couple years ago. Peter and May Belt of PWB Electronics were involved heavily in those discussions and debates as were others at Stereophile forum, including a moderator. A very patient moderator. A good time was had by all. 😬
I can leave you out of, pretty much, anything, but I will have to agree with you. "When you feed it, you become a part of the cycle." Welcome to your own thread. Full of trolls, as you like to say.
Here's what I think and you can take it anyway you want, or do with it whatever you wish. Some people are insane with hatred. Others feed off of this type of thing and feed into it. When you feed it, you become a part of the cycle. Like I said, do what you wish but leave me out of it please. thanks
Two centuries were mentioned not as "for two hundred years" but as "in 20th century and now in 21st century" which is in both centuries. Span of only twenty years, but still multi-century debate.
I think these guys are just fine fighting here. No harm is done. Anything else could escalate and really be not worth it.
Actually pigeons and smoke signals and even humans have been employed for many centuries to send messages, even encrypted messages. Would you believe they used to argue until blue in face which pigeons were the most reliable and fastest? And which wood produced the best smoke for long distance reception, you know, early telecommunication? My favorite use of encrypted messaging was shaving a runner’s Head completely, writing the secret message on his bare scalp, then waiting until his hair grew back in before sending him to deliver the message, you know, in case he was stopped by the enemy. 🏃♂️ A precursor of spread spectrum communications you could say.
Yond Glubson has a lean and hungry look; he thinks too much: such men are dangerous. Fear him not; he's not dangerous; He is a noble T—— and well given.
I doubt anyone can fuel their anger in this case. If they have kept it for 20 years, there must be a lot more in there. No way any of us, you excluded, can do much about it in any way. That is the game between two of you.
My previous post was just because I do like to make sure I got everything right. Like two centuries and so on. Simple facts are facts. It does not mean anything to anybody, but me. Once you say it was my invention, I'd like to check which one of us was wrong. I am surprised you even remember who was around you for a short time 20 years ago, by the way. Not in any bad way, more like I am in awe of sorts.
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