SUT into MM input section of Solid State Phono Stage

What is your MC cartridge then? Start from the cartridge, not from the SUT. If you already have SUT then you are limited to certain type of LOMC according to cartridge impedance matched to your SUT. You can't use one SUT for all LOMC cartridges. 

+1, chakster. In most cases, a customized SUT for your MC cart should sound better than your internal phono’s MC step up transformer.

That IS the purpose of a SUT that is properly matched to the LOMC.
Or am I missing something?

Dear @no_regrets : what you are experienced is something that happens to often and depends mainly of the quality level design of the active high gain stage in the phono stages and not because it's better the SUT/MM combination.

Btw, what other gentlemans as @lalitk and @fuzztone posted here is not exactly that way because it's not the cartridge and the SUT impedance what must be matched this is totally false.

A LOMC cartridge is not affected by SUT impedance, it's insensible to loading impedence changes.

   " Loading the transformer does have an effect on the load seen by the cartridge, but any change in sound quality is more likely to be due to altering the performance of the transformer, not the cartridge . "

What must be matched between a SUT and the cartridge is the SUT gain to the cartridge output level, this is the main issue and not impedance loading.Any SUT with the rigth gain can works with any cartridge with the adequated output level it does not matters its impedances.

Low knowledge levels in that subject makes that audiophiles post wrong information/advises.

So, just continue listening where you are satisfied.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Hello and thank you for all of the replies thus far.
Unfortunately I think I may not have been  clear in my original post and I’m truly sorry for the confusion.
My Hirata Tango at 1:8 step up ratio is a great match for my Zebra Wood Benz Ruby ZH that has a .7 mV output and 38 ohm internal impedance. That should give me about 18 dB and present a load of roughly 738 ohms if I remember correctly,  which sounds great!
I was just curious if any of you had tried doing this into a solid state phono and if it sounded better than using the mc section which in solid state phono’s often use an active gain of fet/bipolar transitors, etc instead of SUT’s.
Thanks much and best wishes,
Don

If we will look on any classic SUTs we will see impedance range stated in the manual or market near the cartridge input on the SUT. In reality a low impedance MC are very low output. When a SUT says primary 3 Ohms connection it means this SUT designed for LOW IMPEDANCE cartridge only (LOMC with 2 Ohm internal impedance for example). This type of SUT obviously can NOT be used with a LOMC cartridge with 40-70 Ohm impedance.

For a high impedance LOMC cartridges there are specially designed SUT, for example a SUT that can handle 40 Ohm or higher impedance.

There is also something in the middle, for example this Luxman SUT can handle MC cartridges with impedance from 3 to 40 Ohm.

Everything marked right on the SUT, all classic Japanese SUTs from Denon, Audio-Technica are all have that marks (to match a sut and cartridge impedance), this is very user friendly! If modern SUT manufacturers can’t give a buyer this information it’s very strange and NOT user friendly!

@no_regrets  : "  what you are experienced is something that happens to often and depends mainly of the quality level design of the active high gain stage in the phono stages and not because it's better the SUT/MM combination. "

So sometimes sounds better with the SUT sometimes not. Even that your unit was designed by Threshold is an entry level and obviously not the best active high gain design and that's why your frefer the SUT.

R.

Yes, I know that my Forte is not a State of the Art phono stage.  I had bought it to be used just as a backup for my main phono stage.  I never thought of the Forte as being bad, but I was certainly cognizant that there are much better available.

However, when I hooked up my Tango SUT to the moving magnet section, I was simply amazed at how much nicer this combo sounded than simply using the MC section on it's own.  What an incredible difference!  It still doesn't compete with my Tango/Artemis Labs Ph-1 tubed phono combo, but man... I have to say I was shocked.

So this experiment just made me wonder if anyone here has tried it themselves (using your SUT into a solid state phono).... you might be surprised at what you hear.

I think most people probably use their SUT into the moving magnet section of their tubed phono I as do.  Anyhow, was just wondering.

Best Wishes,
Don

@no_regrets Yes , i have used a Entre ET100 SUT wiith a Roksan Reference phono which is solid state op amp based and i prefer it better than through the MC setting in this phono stage.

Not sure why do you think most people use tube phono stages? I think you are wrong. I’ve been using SUT only with Solid State phono stages. I must say that current-injection phono stages are much more impressive than SUTs and MM phono.

What must be matched between a SUT and the cartridge is the SUT gain to the cartridge output level, this is the main issue and not impedance loading.Any SUT with the rigth gain can works with any cartridge with the adequated output level it does not matters its impedances.

This is at best misleading.  I agree 100% that the sole purpose of the turns ratio is level matching.   It is best to match a SUT for both step up ratio and cartridge impedance.  Taking the two extremes of a 2Ω and a 40Ω, a 2Ω cartridge feeding a SUT designed for 40Ω will have bass response down to the single digits and show a pronounced resonant peak at some point (hopefully) above the audio range.  Going the other direction and using a SUT intended for a 2Ω source with a 40Ω cartridge will result in inadequate low and  (possibly) high frequency response.

dave

D@intactaudio : That’s how the SUT react not the cartridge. I think that you can do what you posted ( dedicated SUT. ) because you make your own SUT. I’m talking of normal SUT and I own quite a few that I tested in a very high resolution system and what you posted I just can’t detected.
Your post appreciated.

R.

Dear @no_regrets  : I did it and time to time I do and my active high gain phonolinepreamp is a little better.

R.

As a fact the comercial SUT are designed that way where ( example. ) 3 ohms of impedance means high gain between 30db-40db .
I never seen a SUT with 36db of gain for 40 ohms impedance cartridges.

Normally cartridge internal impedance value has an inherent relationship with its output level and the gain it needs .

SUT gain is critical to match a cartridge because if it's to high normally will overload the phono stage and if it's to low will develops some kind of noise and a little dull sound.

R.

What must be matched between a SUT and the cartridge is the SUT gain to the cartridge output level, this is the main issue and not impedance loading.Any SUT with the rigth gain can works with any cartridge with the adequated output level it does not matters its impedances.

This is at best misleading. I agree 100% that the sole purpose of the turns ratio is level matching.  It is best to match a SUT for both step up ratio and cartridge impedance. Taking the two extremes of a 2Ω and a 40Ω, a 2Ω cartridge feeding a SUT designed for 40Ω will have bass response down to the single digits and show a pronounced resonant peak at some point (hopefully) above the audio range. Going the other direction and using a SUT intended for a 2Ω source with a 40Ω cartridge will result in inadequate low and (possibly) high frequency response.

dave

Thanks Dave.
There are some MC cartridges on the edge aka extremely low output MC or higher output MC, but the majority of the LOMC cartridges are 0.2 - 0.3 mV or very close to it (in my opinion). For different LOMC cartridges with the same output of 0.2 mV the difference in cartridge impedance can be huge from 2 Ohm to 30 Ohm, if the output is slightly different the impedance difference can be even bigger. I think all users have to pay attention to impedance matching of the SUT and Cart and for Japanese manufacturers of the SUTs it was very important (always). For American or European manufacturers I often see only step-up ratio. 

 

In my opinion 0.2 or 0.3 mV can be handled by almost any MC phono stage with ease, don't know why people looking for higher output MC.

Running my 0.24 mV FR-7fz with Gold Note PH-10 phono stage without SUT I can use the lowest gain setting (-3db) even with passive preamp and 1.5 W single ended power amp. I really don't understand why people always looking for higher gain and higher output. Those folks should look for high efficient speakers instead.