02-18-08: Dan_ed said:
"Here's my .02. Get the best table, arm and phono stage you can for now. You can always add a better platform and cartridge latter. If you're handy you can easily build a decent RCM for less than $100."
I have to disagree strongly with Dan_ed on this one. Even without springy floors, I believe that a good isolation platform adds an major measure of excellence for any table. The physics of adding stages of isolation is easy to demonstrate and hear, even without springy resonant floors.
Try the Disc Doctor manual record cleaning system before springing for a RCM. Like me, you may find the need for a RCM totally absent.
I think his budget of Aus$20,000 is a very substantial amount and it's reasonable to think that he can expect a complete system within that budget. I don't sense that he wants to do it in stages, but arrive with a VERY satisfactory setup quickly.
Dave |
From Sumiko's webpage Massive 12lb. (5.4kg) sandwich construction acrylic platter virtually eliminated unwanted resonances. I can see why you need some help with dampening. Dgarretson's VPI runs around 60-70 lbs. Maybe that's a little better, but I see a common theme with those who keep demanding that everybody who doesn't use complete isolation is missing out. For comparison, my table and stand together are well over 300 lbs. Hey, if it works for you. If I've learned anything in this hobby it's that one size doesn't fit all. |
Nrchy I did love my Sota turntable and was surprised when it beat my friend's VPI HW-19 with Triplanar arm when we did a head to head shootout. I was using a Denon DL-304 cart, he was using a Sumiko BPS cart. It sounded fuller and more lifelike, VPI thinner and more analytical. But I think I would like to get something a bit different this time.
DCstep, I have been keeping an eye out for the T/T's on sale here, but the problem is that nearly all of them are in the USA. That means - 110V (240V over here), and expensive shipping. Both problems are not insurmountable, I could get a step-down transformer, but why complicate things when I don't have to.
Also - I know someone who can weld steel and has made his own T/T table. It's a massive thing, 75kg, and inert. I will probably ask him to make one for me. In the past, I DIY'ed my own sandpit and it helped tremendously. I might DIY another sandpit for this new T/T. We will see.
Dan_Ed precisely what I was thinking. If I am going to skimp anywhere in the short term, it would be with the cartridge and phono cable. Such things are easy to replace and I won't mind having a spare Denon cartridge lying around. BTW, RCM = record cleaning machine? |
Amfibius, I should have mentioned in my post that I'm keeping in mind the rest of your system. Those Violons deserve to be feed with a really good analog source. I don't want to totally dismiss the importance of stand, etc., but the idea is that you can always improve the sound with additions and tweaks if you start with a great component.
If you get the urge to DIY a table I would suggest contacting Teres for the bearing and a perhaps a platter because I think Chris Brady still sells these ala-carte.
Also, if you consider a good DC motor you can either use a wall-wart or better yet a 12 volt batter supply to drive it. Here again, ask Teres. Maybe they still have some left over prior to the rim drive switch.
Yes, RCM is record cleaning machine. I built one several years ago and still use it today. It's manually powered but I'd put it up against anything as long as we don't count convenience and noise. |
The springs I'm using are rated 40-60lb. each & six springs are used to support a 100lb TT plus a 200lb. sandbox. |
02-18-08: Dan_ed said:
"From Sumiko's webpage
Massive 12lb. (5.4kg) sandwich construction acrylic platter virtually eliminated unwanted resonances.
I can see why you need some help with dampening. Dgarretson's VPI runs around 60-70 lbs. Maybe that's a little better, but I see a common theme with those who keep demanding that everybody who doesn't use complete isolation is missing out. For comparison, my table and stand together are well over 300 lbs. Hey, if it works for you."
What's Sumiko got to do with it? His budget is Aus$20,000. I'm sure there's a different SME distributor in Aus, if that's what you were looking at.
If isolation and mass isn't important then why do you have a 240 lb stand???
Nobody said one size fits all except you. I'm saying to allow for a stand or isolation base in the budget. He's talking about a sandpit now, so I think he understands the issue.
Dave |
Amfibius,
your impressions of the SOTA Vs. VPI sound like the characterstics of those two cartridges. |
Congrats on your suspension modification. I don't see the need for it, but if it makes you happy you can be the High Priest of the Isolation sect. |
Mass, yes. Isolation, not so much. |
Ah, I get it. Isolation under components like power supplies. Yeah, that works. At least I get good results with the roller blocks. I'm using Stillpoints under my table as a temporary stop gap. The granite in direct contact with my table doesn't work so well due to the ringing of the stone. But I'm doing so at the expense of a slight loss in attack and some bass punch. |
02-18-08: Dan_ed said:
"Mass, yes. Isolation, not so much."
Different correct answers to the same physics question.
My question is, what happens if you deaden structure-born resonance, but what about airborne vibrations? The arm and cartridge, unless islotate, are subject to performance degradation if not protected (isolated).
Dave |
Dan_ed I am not thinking of DIY'ing my own turntable, I was thinking of DIY'ing my own turntable TABLE ... i.e, something to put the turntable on! As you can tell from my initial question, I know bugger all about designing turntables. I would rather pay someone who knows what they are doing :)
The learning curve I have in front of me is pretty steep, and i'm at the bottom of the curve :( Have been googling up as much information as I can find.
Piedpiper that was what we suspected when we did the comparison, because my table/arm combo was much cheaper than his. Unfortunately we did not repeat the shootout with a cartridge swap. |
That's been in the back of my mind as well. For the moment, forget about vibrations that may be transfered through the stand or table. Short of playing records in a vacuum, I don't see how we get away from airborne vibrations no matter what we chose to put under our tables. But it seems to me that these are much less deleterious than the vibrations and resonances within the cartridge body and tonearm due to the physical vibrations imparted by the gyrations of the stylus. These are the real culprits to me. I've never been able to get a stylus to mistrack because of sound pressure, not that I've really tried beyond just cranking the volume to rock out. Maybe I've missed it, but I don't recall hearing of anyone ever reporting that happening either. Now I think anyone who has spent time in the analog world has experienced LF feedback. But that's not what I'm talking about here and I doubt that is an issue with several hundred pounds of mass involved. |
Oh, you can hear it easily. I isolate my TT in a 100+lb armoire, loaded with probably 50 pounds of CD and spare cables and wires in the bottom and my control amp, universal player and TT in the top. All-in we may be talking about 200 lbs.
I've got a Korg MR1000 hard drive recorder that records in 1-bit DSD at 5.6MHz, twice SACD resolution. For the best recording quality I go straight from the phono preamp into the Korg with no speakers. When I record the same thing with doors open and the speakers on I get a less clear recording. With the doors closed and the speakers on the recording is almost as good as with no speakers.
The distortion presents itself as slight smearing or obscuring of detail. There's no outright mistracking. I haven't tried it at really high levels, merely the levels that I'd listen to music at (75 to 100dB at my listening position, with averages in the mid 80dB range).
My armoire and TT is 6 inches from the left speaker and about 18" from the right speaker, so there's a lot of energy right around the TT. After my little experiement I keep the armoire doors closed for all listening session and all recording is monitored with headphones. (I'm archiving my D2D recordings to DSD.
I've got 10" concrete floor and ceiling, so room-borne vibrations are not a big issue for me. Also, the mass of that armoire and all the stuff in it gives my turntable a nice headstart.
The demonstration is easy to replicate if you've got a high quality recorder and a way to isolate your TT from airborne sound waves. (Maybe move it outside the room door). The beauty of the recording is that you can set the level and then move things around quite a bit between test recordings, but when you play back you go very quickly from A to B to C, making it easy to hear the differeces.
Dave |
nice test Dcstep! Have you figured out a way to burn SACDs from your Korg? |
Dcstep, that's a test I can trust. I wonder if I can re-create this with my CDP and a recording that I have in both formats. |
02-19-08: Piedpiper said:
"nice test Dcstep! Have you figured out a way to burn SACDs from your Korg?"
No, SACD is a controlled format; however, DVD-A has equivalent resolution and that works.
I have big ambitions for my Korg, but they're unrealized so far. The DAC is exceptional, but the analog inputs and outputs are a little noisy. You can listen through the noise, but I'd rather not. I thought I had a modder lined up to upgrade the input and outputs and add some internal shielding, but he's gotten tied up with other projects.
If I can find somebody to do the mods, then I'd like to do a bunch of comparisons and make those available to people on this forum and clubs and just cover the postage. The resolution is so incredible that you can actually successfully record the different in interconnects, for instance. As a club project, it'd be very interesting to record a bunch of cartridges, arms, etc., etc.
Any modder want to fix up my Korg??? Ric Schultz was who I had in mind. I may just wait him out, but I'd also like to start some projects.
Dave |
Dan ed,
you'll have to be sure that it was mastered by the same company. I've done the vinyl vs. CD test numerous times for myself and others using audiophile recordings such as those from Audioquest where the recording itself is reliably good and the mastering is consistent between the two formats. This test won't give all the information that Dcstep got but it should tell you a lot. |
02-19-08: Dan_ed said:
"Dcstep, that's a test I can trust. I wonder if I can re-create this with my CDP and a recording that I have in both formats."
Taking into account that the CD likely has limits as compared to the LP version, you might switch back and forth at 100dB or so. Another test might be to listen on high quality headphones at a fairly loud level (say 90dB or so) and then turn on the speakers at 100+dB and see if you can hear a degradation.
The beauty of recording is that you can listen to your results on headphones so that the small differences are more apparent.
Oh, I just thought, if you've got an SACD or DVD-A of one of your LPs, that'd be a much better test than a CD. I'm just afraid that the congestion of the CD will mask the difference, because most LPs start out ahead of their CD versions. My experience with SACD and DVD-A however has been very positive.
Dave |
Maybe we should start a new thread. Seems like we're getting farther and farther away from Amfibius' topic.
I'm really not setup to do this test. No headphones, no SACD or DVD-A. |
02-19-08: Dan_ed said:
"Maybe we should start a new thread. Seems like we're getting farther and farther away from Amfibius' topic."
Yes, but it's good to consider placement of the TT relative to the speakers, so I don't think that we hijacked.
I'd be happy to join a new thread if you'd like to explore this further. I'd be curious to hear of others' experiences in this arena. I've probably exhausted all I've got to say, but I could Copy and Paste.
Dave |
Anyone intersted in suspending their turntable can take a look at what I did. It worked for me, I believe it's better than most tt i have heard but then i am biased, sorry its my baby. |
funny this went on so long, dan and albert already said it. |
