Audiokinesis,
Good to hear about your plans.You are right about the surrounds too.I have always preferred cloth surrounds to rubber.
I understand that many of the RCF woofers are now back in production.
I have mounted the L15/554k in a coffee table style box[firing down].This seems to sound best in the middle of the room.The gap at the bottom is about 100mm[4 inches].
This sounds superb with ER Audio stats as well as full range point source type speakers like Lowthers etc.
Many people swear by a high pass filter on the main speakers but I have found this is not really necessary unless they go below about 50hz-which most panels struggle to do.
Good luck.There is a real need out there for this type of low bass speakers that mainstream subs fail to address.
JT |
I think that most people buy subwoofers largely by the numbers, and the numbers aren't kind to transient response optimizing designs.
Consider two subwoofers, identical in size and price. The first one is -3 dB anechoic at 40 Hz, and second one is -3 dB anechoic at 20 Hz. Which one do you think most people are going to buy?
What the numbers don't tell you is that the 40 Hz subwoofer has much better transient response than the 20 Hz one. Good transient response is expensive in terms of box size and bass extension.
I'm involved in the development of a subwoofer designed specifically to work well with Maggies, and if the project is a success it will probably be marketed through Audiogon. The design will be optimized for transient response, rather than for loudest deepest possible bass in smallest possible box.
I do not think that the surround itself is a dominant factor in the sound of a subwoofer. Rather, those subwoofers you see with the donut-like surrounds are typically optimized for loudest deepest possible bass in smallest possible box, and transient response is the casualty. The prosound 15" woofer mentioned by Jtgofish has parameters more conducive to good transient response, assuming adequate box size.
Duke |
I find it very hard to belive the DD series did not work well. They also have very good tech support.
Tim |
Martin Logan Depth sub and 3.6 Maggies sound fantastic in my room....crossed over at 35Hz. |
A couple more possibilities:
1) Consider stereo subs. IMO, even at low X-over points, stereo subs create more realism. See the 6moons article:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/vbt/magellan82.html
Also, consider a pair of VBT/TBI subs as an option. They're small and inobtrusive and can be placed anywhere and have short excursion drivers and I've found them to integrate well with several speakers.
2) If size doesn't matter, consider a pair of dipole sube to match your dipole speakers, and place them in the plane of your Maggies.
I first realized the value in dipoles when I had a square room and big Proacs. Couldn't get the bass right with any placement. Switched to Genesis V with integrated dipole subs and the bass improved dramatically.
I'm using DIY Linkwitz Phoenix dopole subs and can't say enough good things about them.
3) Consider Tact preamp room-correction. Maybe more than you want to spend, but I've not heard anything that integrates subs with the mains as well as this. I was astonished the first time I heard it. Nice and fast digital crossovers allow you to position the subs where the bass sounds best and corrects the bumps and valleys of the bass frequencies at your listening position.
When you see the aberrant bass measurements in your room with the Tact you'll understand why so many folks abandon subs---their loss. Low frequencies add spatial cues that add so much to realism, but they have to be tamed so they don't sound out of control (and muddy up the mids). The Tact does this amazingly well.
Good luck. |
Eldartford is correct in saying you need large diameter short excursion cones.Most mainstream subs using long excursion drivers with heavy rubber surrounds are going to sound slow and smeared.They are just wrong.
I can recommend the RCF L15 /554k 15 inch woofer[superb quality Italian pro speakers] as a great driver for using with panel speakers.Put these in a 100 litre box and port to RCF recommendations and drive with any half decent subwoofer amp and you will get that extra octave of bass[33-66 hz] that many panels lack.And it will integrate superbly and be fast sounding.Also this drivers high sensitivity means something like a 100 watt sub amp is more than adequate. |
There's a basic rule of thumb that usually works very well: Cross over the sub one octave above the -3 db of the main's low end, e.g., if you're mains are -3 db at 40 Hz, set the cross over at 80 Hz. This counters the conventional wisdom of crossing over as low as possible. I had the same problems when I persisted in crossing over low. You will need an SPL meter, test CD, and some time to get both the sub's level and phase set properly for the flattest response in your room. I was even able to tame my room's 60 hz mode. I don't buy that subs can't be integrated well with stats or panels. It takes some time and experimentation. Don't assume just because an audio store or someone you know has plowed megabucks in their system that they know how to get a sub integrated properly. |
Hmmmmm, I have been thinking about adding a sub to my electrostats. I had not thought about the above problems. Now I probably won't try as i can do better without than a poorly mated 'with'. |
I have heard Nola Thunderbolts sounding very good with Maggies. The TBs are very fast and transparent - musical is a term that gets tossed around without much meaning but it does apply in this case.
When I sold my last pair of Maggies ten years ago, alas, the TB was not available. |
I tried running Running two Velodyne DD 10's subs with built in room correction. These are awesome subs IMO very fast and dynamic. But intergrating them in my system, at that time was to big a trade off for bass. Using the high pass in the subs made the speaker and sub intergration very very good. But it made the mids and highs sound electronic.
And by not using the high pass, and just using the room correction, I could never get the seamless intergration with the main speakers which were ML Odysseys. I ended up selling the two subs and the speakers and bought a better full range speakers. The Martin Logan Summits with built in Subs. Which are every bit as good as the Velodyne Subs. Now their is no trade off.
However, if you pre amp is processor based and your using that with the 2 Velodynes DD 10's it would intergate the bass very very well.
But in an all analogue system I don't think can be done. With good results |
OK, thanks. I thought the drive units were embedded in the wall. |
Gregm...My three SW systems are "sealed enclosure" which as you probably know is not the same thing as "infinite baffle". The enclosures (which are all the world like coffins standing on end) are embedded in a wall. Their front baffles, which go floor to ceiling, are covered with acoustic foam (for the Maggie backwave). Fabric goes over the whole thing, so the SW systems are completely camouflaged.
Phasing is easily verified using my spectrum analyzer. (Out of phase produces a deep sharp notch at X/O). |
MrTennis - I have a pair of Revel B12 subs (non-ported)with my Magnepan 3.6 r's and they are completely integrated into the system. That was NOT easy to do. I spent 6 months experimenting with placement of the subs and experimenting with subwoofer interconnect length and materials. I finally settled on custom made silver cables 1.5M long (the amplifiers are 3M of cable (Nirvana SX Ltd XLR) from the pre-amp and the main speakers use 4ft of (Purist Audio Aqueous Anniversary bi-wire)speaker cable. I have access to lots of cables to try and a lot of patience to get the system sounding right. To get a sub (or subs) to seemlessly integrate with planer or panel speakers isn't easy - it takes a lot of work, but I am here to tell you it CAN be done. |
My experience echos that of Cmo's. Low pass set very low, 40hz., and at low volume, I can get a pretty good blend and sub bass reinforcement. When I try to use the sub to recreate the bass of 1.6's for certain types of music, (rock, alternative) it just won't blend properly. But then again, my rock is usually played at volumes high enough that the room accoustics have broken down, destroying anything approaching sound coherence.
Active crossovers in front of the amps might make playing a wider range of bass through the sub more workable with the 1.6's.
Jim S. |
Sit in front of and between ML Summits.
Play music.
Listen.
:) |
Eldartford describes: "sw drivers mounted in the wall behind it" SO, you're "infinitely baffling" the sw?
If so, I assume you're equalising the s/w via the Behringer - no? Have you checked for phase?
Cheers
Mrtennis notes "i still tend to hear both cone and panel separately ". That's often the case. Don't forget, panels are open baffle while sw are boxes.
BTW, someone describes using an open baffle SW system to pair with stats -- but can't find it. |
Mrtennis...One characteristic of my system which suggests that the SW and Maggies are well integrated is that, while playing a pink noise test signal I can sweep the X/O frequency between 40 Hz to about 300 Hz without any change in the sound. When playing certain kinds of music, loud organ and the like, I push the X/O up to 300 Hz or so to get that "slam" which Maggies lack. Chamber music is down to 50 Hz. Most of the time I am at 80-100 Hz. |
The panels run full range. REL subs are designed to use a signal from the power amp and re-enforce the sub-bass below the signal of the main speaker. I have mine crosed over pretty low (around 32Hz if I remember right). REL's are known for their speed and musicality...... less so for their HT type dinosaur stomping/explosions, etc. |
gentlemen, do you let the maggies run full range or do you cross them over. also what about the subs, do they run full range or are they crossed over say at 50 hz ?
i still tend to hear both cone and panel separately even in the best set up. maybe you have solved that problem. |
Martin Logans and Revels are a fine match thank you. |
Mrtennis...I designed my custom sw systems so that each of three Maggie MG1.6 has two big sw drivers mounted in the wall behind it. Large cone area (small excursion) and location directly behind the panel ("plays through" the screens) works for me. |
I have been using REL subwoofers and Maggies in combination for a long time......... I find the sound very cohesive. Maybe you hearing the wrong sub???
Chris |
