I recently purchased Audiopoints (cones & spikes) to try against my current DH Labs ceramic cones which replaced Vibrapods which replaced Herbies tenderfeet.
I heard no difference between the DH Labs ceramic cones and the Audiopoints (cones). The theaded Audiopoints speaker spikes were a major dissapointment. I hope to return the Audiopoints without a hassle.
Since I have a suspended hardwood floor I have had major issues with vibration and have been chasing my tail. After reading several threads here and at AA, I decided to try the Ikea Lack Table idea, as well. ----- They sucked in my room!
Vibrated like crazy. Even the Neuance shelf on the Lack table vibrated like crazy. Bass was bloated, soundstage very diffuse and everything sounded out of phase. Maybe the Lack Tables work on concrete pad floors, but not on my suspended hardwood floor.
For my speakers, I finally tried what some others had reported for success with speakers on a suspended hardwood floor. I purchased pre-mounted Travertine on a non-resonant material and sandwiched the correct weighted Vibrapods between two pieces of the Travertine/material. Viola. What a beautiful solution. Incredible change. Very little to no floor excitement and bass became very articulate and tight.
Next I decided to bag the Neuance shelf/DH cones under my transport and try DH cones, points down, sitting on top of Vibrapods. Since this is not possible without a flat surface on top of the Vibrapod for the point of the cone to rest on, I picked up some Formica sample chips (about 2 inches wide and 3 inches long) to place on top of the Vibrapods. They fit just right on top on the Vibrapods.
Let me digress.
Previously when I had the Neuance shelf on top of the Lack Table with the DH Cones between the shelf and my transport, I could put my hand on top of my transport and it was vibrating like crazy with heavy bass frequencies. That's when everything sounded mucked up and out of phase. As soon as I tried the Vibrapod/Formica sample/DH cones combination (without the Neuance shelf) my jaw dropped. I couldn't feel one bit of vibration from my transport no matter how loudly I played low bass frequencies.
I subsequently put the Vibrapod/Formica/DH cone combo under all of my components and I have never heard this level of clarity and transparency in my system. As bad as the Lack Tables are in my room, they are a non-issue with the Vibrapod/Formica/DH cone solution so I will just keep them until I upgrade everything after the first of the year.
YMMV, but in my system with a suspended hardwood floor, the Vibrapod sandwich idea made an enormous difference with my speaker floor/excitation problem and the Vibrapod/Formica/DH cones combo under my components has completely blown away everything else that I have tried. Even my wife commented she couldn't believe how good everything sounds with my current solution and she usually never says anything.
Having said that, the Audiopoints (spikes) under my speakers were a total disaster and the Audiopoints (cones) under my components were no improvement to the DH cones.
The real shocker was how much better my system became after removing the Neuance shelf/Dh Cones and replacing it with the Vibrapod/Formica/DH Cone combo.
I think the issue here is that everyone's room and situation is different. What might work well on a concrete pad may not work well on a suspended hardwood floor, but I have finally found the solution for my room. The difference is amazing and until I heard the transformaton with my own two ears, I would have never believed that controlling vibration could make such a huge difference. It has been bigger than any component upgrade I have ever made. (But then again, my suspended hardwood floor was incredibly egregious in my room.) |
Warren,
I use a heavily modified PD65 as a transport with all BlackGates throughout the power supply, Harris Freds, solid silver wiring, Canare BNC, etc.
Extremely modified Audio DAC 1.2 with all Black Gates, tantalum resistors, solid silver wiring, Audio Note Copper Caps, Audio Note Siver Digital Interface transformer, NOS Amperex Orange Globes, Audio Note silver "Interstage" Transformers which bypass the digital filter, custom HMS internal IC's, Canare BNC,....
Supratek Chardonnay preamp with WE 350B's, 1952 Sylvania 6SN7's, Mullard 5AR4, upgraded pot to a DACT, Auricap upgrade, by-passed selector switch...
PS Audio HCA-2 with Black Gates in the signal path and solid silver output wiring.
Heavily modified Newform Research 645's.
All HMS Gran Finale IC's and DIY solid core silver speaker cables.
Warren, do a search here and at AA. Many have moved on from Audiopoints. That is not to say Audiopoints aren't great. But like so many things they are system dependent.
The Audiopoints (cones) made absolutely no difference to my ear over the DH Labs Ceramic cones and I don't think the Audiopoints threaded speaker spikes scould penetrate my carpet. I have a 13 x 20 ( ? ), very heavy and tightly woven Persian carpet on top of a carpet pad and I don't think the Audiopoints ever got through. I also tried them with the coupling discs that Robert recommended. They were awful with the discs and only marginally better without them.
As I said, I suspect the Sistrum products are very good, but not in my application. The difference between the Vibrapod solution and the Audiopoints was night and day. |
Stehno, your logic is flawed.
You write:
"In other words, to realize the full benefits of the Audio Points, the methodology (coupling) has to be applied everywhere.
Assume for the moment that you are using zip cord for all of your cabling needs. You then install Jena Labs top of the line speaker cables, and one pair of their ic's but you leave the other pair of zip cord ic's in place.
You would probably notice a nice little improvement, but most likely not worth the $10k you just paid for these cables, and you'd probably want Jena Labs to refund your monies. But when you install that last pair of Jena Lab ic's and allow for proper burn-in, your system is now singing a whole new song."
Hogwash.
I have heard big differences when changing out one set of IC's or applying vibration control to just one component. Is the improvement cumulative? Certainly, but if you are telling me that Audiopoints can only work in an "all or nothing" approach, then I will tell you they aren't as effective as Vibrapods in MY SYSTEM. The Vibrapods were very audible upon only being installed under my speakers, not my whole system.
The effectiveness of applying the Vibrapod sandwich to my speakers after trying the Sistrum spikes for five days was immediate and dramatic. Helen Keller could have heard the difference.
Once again, if the Sistrum spikes are so much better, why would I have to "Sistrum" my whole system to hear a difference? Robert was confident that I would hear an immediate difference upon installing the spikes on my speakers. Well, I did hear a difference and it wasn't pretty. After five days of trying the spikes, with and without the coupling discs, moving my speakers, etc., I gave up. I finally went out and bought the materials to make the Vibrapod sandwich and the difference was staggering as soon as I hit the play button.
And if the Audiopoints are so effective, then why would I not hear a considerable difference just because I was using the "cheap" Lack Table for my components. If the Vibrapod/Formica solution worked incredibly well on the Lack Table, why not the Audiopoints!
In fairness, I heard no difference between the DH Labs cones and the Audiopoints on the Lack Table without the Vibrapod/Formica combo in place. Not until putting the Vibrapods/Formica solution between the cones and the Lack Table did I get a tremendous improvement.
So what is the common denominator here? Vibrapods. On both my speakers and my components, same result. Without the Vibrapod/Formica setup on my transport, I could feel incredible vibration with my hand; I had horrible soundstaging, bloat and confusion. Immediately upon installing the Vibrapod/Formica idea, not one bit of vibration could be felt on my transport no matter how loudly I played heavy bass material. And my system took a huge leap.
(BTW, I forgot to mention in my first post that I also have dedicated lines and isolation transformers on each line, Acme cryoed silver outlets for each component and Virtual Dynamics power cords.)
Stehno, I am not saying Audiopoints are not great. Maybe they are in your system. Not in mine. No big deal. When we build our new house and I build a dedicated listening room, I will certainly try an entire Sistrum approach at that time. But I will have a concrete pad for my room, as well!
Suspended hardwood floors are just a different animal than concrete pads. So much energy is transferred to the suspended floor and subsequently to the components as compared to a concrete pad poured upon the ground.
I think with a concrete pad, coupling with a Sistrum system makes sense. Get the vibration to ground as quickly as possible. But a suspended hardwood floor is totally different. Since the energy is absorbed by all of the construction materials, everything simply vibrates wildly until the energy is converted to heat or finally finds it way to ground. Enter the Vibrapod solution for the suspended hardwood floor. Immediately convert the resonant energy to heat at the source! Makes perfect sense to me and in my room, there is no argument. One solution works immaculately well and the other is only a marginal improvement over nothing.
In December, I will have my business paid off. At that time, my income will approach seven figures annually after losing the burden of a huge business loan. I am changing my speakers, amp and my transport (possibly Meitner gear - or just a high-end transport for Audio Note DAC which I think is incredible). I will keep my HMS Gran Finale ICs, probably my DAC and my Supratek preamp. One of my first efforts will be to find the right high-end solution for a rack system, along with speakers, transport and amp. Much will change, but I will still have the suspended hardwood floor. Time will tell what the best solution will be.
In the meantime, I am glad the Sistrum products work for you. I have found what works in my room and thats all that matters. Maybe you like horns
.I dont. To each his own. The most important thing is to find solutions that bring us the most musical enjoyment and I am ecstatic with the results I am getting with my current modest setup.
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Tom, if you read my post I was the first to say I didn't think the Audiopoints had ever penetrated my Persian rug and wool pad beneath it. I realize the Audiopoints are most effective when they are coupled to the floor, but if the points couldn't get through my rug...nothing I can do about that. I certainly am not going to change the rug! Its a multi-thousand dollar rug and we bought it from an interior design standpoint.
But Robert at StarSound was certain the spikes would work on my carpet/pad and suspended floor and was also adamant that the coupling discs would work on top of the carpet, just not quiet as well as without them. Either way he said I would experience a huge improvement.
And I don't doubt that you experienced exactly what you said you experienced today with the Revels. In contrast, I am telling you what didn't work in my room (for whatever reasons) and what made an amazing difference. Nothing more I can add to that.
Stehno, sorry if I misinterpreted your points. Wasn't intentional.
But I still take exception to this statement:
"Please stop using the concrete slab vs. suspended hardwood flooring systems as it doesn't substantiate your perspective no matter how much you think it may."
No, let me tell you what substantiates my perspective and reduces yours to nonsense. I have been in this room everyday for the last year and a half and you have never set foot in it.
Until you come hear my room and my floor your comment simply smacks of arrogance. Do a search here and at AA. Numerous others have experienced the exact same problem with suspended hardwood floors and in virtually every instance coupling excited the floor more and made the problem worse. The only successful solution for several others before me was the Vibrapod sandwich solution.
You keep talking about the energy getting to ground. THAT'S THE PROBLEM! In my room, the suspended hardwood floor resonates like crazy at certain bass frequencies if my speakers are sitting directly on the floor. You can talk till you are blue in the face. I have lived this scenario every day. I know what has exacerbated the problem and what has cured it.
The point you seem to be missing is that the energy can't get to ground. Don't you get that. Sure some of it will eventually get there, but it has to travel across all of the sub-flooring and floor joists before it finally gets to a point of exit which would be pillars beneath the floor which go to the foundation. By that time the damage is done. The floor has already been vibrating like a drum before the vibrations get to the pillars. No way around that. The energy simply can't jump across all of the floor joists to the pillars.
And your analogy of the lightening rod is excellent. You prove my point. The lightening (airborne vibrations) can't immediately get to ground because there is no direct path in my floor for the lightening to go to ground. It has to go in a convoluted way to find the ground. And again, the damage is already done. I don't understand why you can't grasp that.
Since I can't efficiently get the airborne vibrations and/or the vibrations from my coupled speakers to the ground before they have already have caused a lot of damage, I have chosen to convert them to heat with the Vibrapods. End of story. It works. The bass is fast, articulate, great slam, focus, etc. with the Vibrapod solution. Everything else is dramatically improved, as well. And there is virtually no floor excitation/boom to the point that I have to ask myself if I can even hear any at all.
I find it interesting that some of you guys are prone to tell me and others that what we are experiencing is simply wrong when we are the ones with first-hand experience with our particular situations. It is simply laughable that you are wasting any time at all trying to contradict what I am telling you about my "real world" experience in MY room!
I know what I hear and what I have experienced in my room. And my experience is exactly the same as many others here if you will take the time to do a search.
Stehno, sorry if I seem agitated, but it is frustrating when someone tells me that my own personal experience isn't what in fact it is.
I do appreciate your feedback and everyone else's, as well. But it seems that anytime anyone questions Sistrum products and or their claims around here (or in my case, has actual disappointing results) the gang piles on. That's okay, as I am confident in what I know to be true in my personal experience and I have never been one to be intimidated by the crowd.
The simple truth is I wanted the Audiopoints to work. They are cheap enough and I was hoping to find a starting place for vibration control as I head into upgrading my system next year.
I am a firm believer in tweaking and I am always open to things that work in my system. But if something doesn't work in my system, I am not afraid to say so. I simply try to state how a product performs in MY system. And I never go out of my way to slam or bash a product. I simply say my peace about my experience and move on.
As I said before. I am sure Audiopoints is an excellent product given the right set of circumstances. The circumstances simply weren't right in my situation.
Oops, I almost forgot your last question:
"Are you saying that installing Vibrapods under your transport also eliminated any air-borne vibrations captured by the transport as well?"
Where did you get that? No, I simply said I couldn't feel any vibrations with my hand after installing the Vibrapods. I am sure there are micro-vibrations at work that I can't feel, but what does that have to do with anything. If I had Audiopoints under my transport the same airborne vibrations would be working on my transport and hopefully the Audiopoints would transfer them away to the ground.
Well, my DH Labs cones under all of my components do the same thing, with one exception. (And who knows, maybe the DH cones aren't as effective as Audiopoints after all, but I didn't hear any difference).
The only difference between the Audiopoints concept and my current setup with the DH Labs cones/Formica/Vibrapods is that the Audiopoints work by transferring the vibrations to ground in an appropriate rack system and my DH Labs transfer the same vibrations to the Vibrapods to convert them to heat.
You know a thought just entered my mind. I don't know about your floor, but my floor joists span 14 feet across the room (32 feet long) without any pillars at all beneath them. This is one big drum head. The entire width of the room is open beneath the floor with pillars only on each side of the room. Maybe your room spans only eight feet or so without pillars. Another factor is my floor is a minimum of six feet above the ground progressing to seven feet. I suspect floors that are closer to the ground may not be as prone to the drum effect due to a more limited reverberant cavity. I obviously don't know shit about this stuff, but it makes sense to me.
I purchased screw jacks as a last resort to use with timbers to tighten up my floor in lieu of pillars (which would give the vibrations a more direct path to ground). I thought I would try the Audiopoints first, but I ended up with the Vibrapod solution instead. As good as the results are with the Vibrapods, I have absolutely zero interest or need to address the floor.
Since we built this house a year and a half ago and we will only be in it another two years or so before we build a larger custom home with a dedicated listening room, I don't really want to hassle any more than I have to with the floor. Otherwise, if we were staying in this house long-term, I would have a contractor come out and add additional footings and pillars under the floor.
But one thing is for sure. Our next home is going to have a dedicated listening room on a concrete pad!
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Tvad, the pre-mounted Travertine was purchased at Lowes. It has two, 12 x 12 in. squares of Travertine mounted on some sort of fiberboard. There is a grout line between the two pieces of Travertine. This product is obviously made to make installation of the Travertine quick and easy with perfect grout lines. It comes five pieces to a box with two tiles of Travertine per piece and I think it was about $65 for the box of five.
Unlike the granite, marble, tile, etc. that I have examined, the pre-mounted Travertine doesn't ring at all when you tap it. It simply has a dull thud.
I used two pieces of the pre-mounted Travertine (24 x 12) under each speaker with the appropriate Vibrapods between. I have my speakers sitting directly on top of the upper-most Travertine/board.
Under my components I use DH Labs ceramic cones, points down, sitting on top of Vibrapods that have a Formica sample piece between the cone and the Vibrapod to support the point of the cone on the Vibrapod.
These Formica pieces are the standard 2 x 3 in. sample pieces that home improvement stores have hanging on little pegs on their Formica displays. I asked if I could have a dozen or so and they said, "no problem".
Hope that answers your questions.
And one other thing. I used about 9 furniture sliders attached to the underside of each bottom piece of the Travertine/boards. My speakers and the sandwich beneath them are very stable, but I can now slide my speakers rather easily if I choose to move them into the corners (or if my wife makes me) when we have dinner parties. |
Tom, thanks for your info.
I do believe the Audiopoints were ineffective in my system simply because of the particular application. I do fully intend to try the Sistrum products again when my situation changes because so many people swear by them. As I said, based on anecdotal information, I believe Audiopoints work. I believe a lot of isolation products work. Some better than others I am sure. But at the moment I have found a dramatically effective solution for my given situation and I am very happy that I have finally rid my room of any floor boom.
And Stehno, thanks for your reply. I believe we are actually on the same page, but given the particulars of my room, the Audiopoints simply didn't work. (BTW, I forgot to mention; in our previous home before our new house, I had the exact same speakers and virtually the same equipment/setup, all sitting on a concrete pad and I never had the slightest problem with floor boom.)
I'll tell you what I have thought about since the day I received the Audiopoints.
The reason the points never coupled is that they never got through to the floor. The points were plenty sharp, but the bevel on the point prevented the point from getting through my carpet and pad. If the bevel was steeper, I have no doubt that my speakers would have pushed the Audiopoints through my carpet and pad.
A needle with the same degree of bevel would get through to the floor, whereas the same bevel on a one inch rod wouldn't have a chance.
I am disappointed that the spikes were never allowed to work because I truly did want to see what would happen, good or bad, with the "famed" Audiopoints in place and coupled to my suspended floor.
The bad news is that I didn't get results with the Audiopoints. The good news is that I found a solution for my speakers and components in my current situation that has given me clarity, detail, imaging, etc. that I never thought possible with my modest system.
Once again, thanks for the efforts to help. I never object to spirited debate as long as the motive is right. |
Tvad, not sure what speakers you have and how much they weigh.
My speakers weigh 110 lbs. apiece with most of the weight concentrated on the front. The drivers and especially the 50 lb. ribbon right on the front make them extremely front loaded. I simply placed the Vibrapods accordingly based on the proportional weight of my speakers.
The grout line in the middle is not a concern of mine since 3/4 of the weight is centered right in the front of my speakers and consequently away from the center of the tiles.
I think you would be in great shape to simply distribute the appropriate rated Vibrapods according to the weight distribution of your speakers. I doubt your speakers will be as heavily weighted toward the front as mine so placing a couple of Vibrapods under the seam would probably work beautifully.
One suggestion. For stability purposes, I would use more Vibrapods than less. For instance: on a one hundred pound speaker you could use four #5 pods distributed accordingly or ten #3 pods. The ten pods would support the equivalent weight of the four pods, but the weight would be distributed more evenly.
BTW, the floor sliders are 3/16 of an inch, the pods are 9/16 of an inch and the Travertine is 1/2 thick. Total for the sandwich, 1 3/4 inches. Not really that much.
Aloha,
Warren |
In the interest to those who offered me assistance in this thread, I emailed Robert Maicks at Star Sound Technologies and explained my results with Audiopoints.
Robert emailed me back and generously offered to refund my purchase upon return of the product. He said, "I have been following the active thread on Audiogon as I would like to determine as to why our product has produced a minimal effect within your environment."
In my email to Robert I stated that I would take the loss on the Audiopoints coupling discs since the spikes had scarred them during setup. He replied, "We will take back all products, regardless of condition as there is no reason for you to lose any financial investment. We truly do stand behind our satisfaction guarantees."
Furthermore, Robert asked if I would provide additional feedback about my equipment in an effort to better understand what may have caused the performance issues. He also genuinely expressed an interest in trying to help address my problem in the future if he arrives at any solutions.
I must say I have been impressed with Star Sound Technologies committment to customer satisfaction, the manner in which Robert communicated with me and his desire for information to continually improve his product and to possibly help my situation.
Until I do a major upgrade of my system next year, I am extremely satisfied with the results that I have acheived recently with decoupling. However, when I do ultimately upgrade my system, I have committed to myself that I will re-visit Star Sound Technologies products. Robert earned both my respect and my willingness to do business with his company again.
Unfortunately, my results with Audiopoints were not what I had hoped for, but one couldn't ask for a better consumer experience, audio related or not.
Once again thanks to those that offered me feedback and help in addressing my vibration issues.
Warren |
