Step Up Transformer

@edgewear 

@dover given your extensive experience, would you share with us what you consider to be the best trannies you ever heard? Thanks.

That is like asking how long a piece of string could be if you unwound it.

I have not heard any mc transformer that sounds as good as my current mc input 

In terms of best, the problem is that there is no best, it so much depends on the cartridge/sut/phono combination.

For example I have amongst my collection some Altec 4629's and 4722's. Same "specs", different construction. With most cartridges the 4629's outperform the 4722's - however with one exception, with my Garrott rebuilt Denon 103 the 4722's outperform the 4629's. With all my other cartridges the 4629's outperform the 4722's. The 4722's easily beat the Auditorium 23 specifically designed for the Denon 103.

My experience trialling a variety of SUT's with a range of top cartridges with internal impedances ranging from 3-40 ohms I have come to the following conclusions -

None of the SUT's are neutral, none sound the same despite some having similar gain structures, turns ratios etc.

The SUT's all have a unique character that you can hear regardless of the internal impedance of the MC.

I think that trying to match the SUT to a MC in terms of load presented to the cartridge ( the most common methodology promulgated on this forum ) is wrong.

Much more important than loading in my view is getting the gain structure right so you have the optimum voltage going into the phono. Many vintage transformers have too much gain for modern tube mm phonos resulting in the preamp volume pot operating in the very low region where noise and more importantly accurate tracking matching between channels is compromised.

I have never needed more gain than 1:10 turns ratio at most, using my modded Marantz 7 ( phono around 42db ), even with cartridges like my Ikeda Kiwame which is only 0.15mv.

Currently in my cupboard I have SUT's from Altec ( 4629/4722 ), various FR's, Jensen, Tims Head and some vintage Ortofon units. Many others have passed through.

Conclusions thus far ( in my system )

Jensen's - most neutral - important note - I have optimised the Nobel networks for the individual cartridges used, this is required to get the best out of them.

FR's - horrible, compressed, gluggy, flogged them all off apart from one which was a gift, so I can't sell it, never use it though.

Various Denon SUT's - very good bang for your buck, some work exceptionally well. for example with my Dynavector Karat Nova 13D one of the Dynavector engineers advised me to use the vintage Denon AU103 other than the matching Dynavector head amp and/or SUT.

Kondo's - lovely "sound" but dreadfully slow.

Auditorium 23's overrated, optimised Jensens and vintage Altecs are better.

The Head ok, nothing special.

Peerless/Altec 4629 - if I need a SUT I tend to use these, can be configured for different gain structures - midrange is nice,  but lacks bottom end extension and top end not super refined. By the way if you pull one of these vintage grannies to bits you will find individually annealed plates within the laminations - depending on the annealing process you can modify the efficiency and electrical behaviours of the transformer and in those days Jensen had 200 plus engineers fiddling around with each individual process in manufacturing for fun and learning - something no one could afford these days. They also use teflon within the windings. Probably most of ttheir research learnings have been lost. 

Unfortunately whenever I use a SUT in my system the compromises are too much and they don't last long.

I would only see a benefit from using a SUT where the MC gain stage is not very good or you want a "sound". MC transformers have phase shifts and therefore cannot accurately reproduce the fundamentals and harmonics of a note. On the other hand they can help reduce noise due to their passive nature.

Personally I value coherence and timing ( I seem very sensitive to timing and phase errors ) and therefore don't use them.

Having said that decent MC stages are few and far between. 

Also one other recollection - in discussions with a top cartridge designer there is a correlation between cartridge design ( not impedance ) and the attributes of the magnetic circuits within SUT's - for example if I recall correctly they recommended certain SUT's ( toroidal vs conventional core ) with specific cartridges based on the known distortions inherent in the individual cartridge design ( magnets, poles, layout etc ). I don't think anyone here would be ab le to explain this other than maybe Jonathan Carr.

In a word SUTs are a crapshoot. To find the best you have to try them all out on your system with each individual cartridge.. It will cost a fortune, there is no one best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

@edgewear

post script

I also have in the cupboard a much vaunted pure tube mc head amp and a hybrid fet/tube mc head amp that I have modded. The hybrid fet/tube head works very well with the ultra low output Ikeda, very dynamic and very coherent, slightly down on resolution compared to my current input option.

@dover thanks for taking the time to respond. I’m aware there is no ’best’, only better or worse interactions between cartridge, tonearm and amplification device, sometimes with surprising results when you least expect it. In order to draw any valid conclusions one would need to take a ’system’ approach and try out as many different combinations as possible, which is why I value your veteran expert opinion.

What you’re saying doesn’t really conflict with my own findings, based on my experiments with some 35 different MC cartridges, 5 different tonearms and 5 different phono amplification devices. This is of course a very limited ’universe’ compared to what’s out there, even if the number of different combinations to try within it is already vast. Some combinations work well as to be expected (based on specs), while others work much better or worse than expected. It seems in those ’best’ cases there’s some kind of electric handshake, perhaps similar to the best cartridge / tonearm combinations having an ideal mechanical interaction. And when both mechanical and electric synergy happen simultaniously, the results will most likely be outstanding.

Perhaps it would be worthwile if some of the more experienced folks like you would take the time to make their personal list of cartridge / tonearm / amplification combinations that really stand out from the crowd. If more people would mention the same combinations as being excellent, this could create some sort of experience based consensus about the ’best’ possible combinations as interacting systems, instead of the generally useless opinions about ’best’ components in isolation. Such a list might be useful to people who need help with their purchase decisions, which are the most frequent questions on this forum.

I don’t feel qualified to start this myself, but I would gladly contribute my own limited findings later on. So, anyone dare to go first?

Dear @lewm  : " will probably have wide bandwidth and low distortion. "

I'm sorry but from where came that statement?  That manufacturer never posted both specifications nowhere or exist measured information about.. 

 

R.

 

Dear @edgewear  : " If more people would mention the same combinations as being excellent, this could create some sort of experience based consensus about the ’best’ possible combinations as interacting systems, instead of the generally useless opinions about ’best’ components in isolation. Such a list might be useful to people who need help with their purchase decisions.  "

 

That could be fine but there are a lot of " things " around that scenario that those experiences are really good for only the gentleman that posted and owns that room system.

Things are thaT SAME COMBINATIONS WITH DIFFERENT SPEAKERS OR AMPLIFIERS OR CABLES OR ...OR....perform different too and depends too of the LP choosed tracks and obviously those experienced " ears " or know how of MUSIC level.

 

Look in this thread the OP owns the PS Audio Stellar phono stage and even that it's looking for a SUT ( no sense to me but I respect his " needs " )..Fremer was impresed for the Stellar unit and in his review he posted statements almost imposible to imagine for a so low price phono stage:

 

 " The midrange on this phono preamp is as open, uncongested, transparent, and revealing as that of any phono preamp I've heard at any price.

How's that for a "pull quote"? But it's true, not hyperbole, and I stand by it. In the midrange department, the Stellar Phono is the darTZeel of phono preamplifiers. Considering the price differential, that's saying a lot!  "

 

"" Because of its openness, transparency, and freedom from midband congestion, the Stellar did tell me some things I didn't already know, on many recordings. Small, subtle-though-significant things that surprised me. ""

 

""" 

At RMAF, I played the test pressing of the first movement of the upcoming Bruckner Symphony No.7 recording with Bernard Haitink conducting the Berlin Philharmonic, and the crowd sat through the entire movement, clearly enthralled (despite the noise outside the room) by the recording's insane transparency, three-dimensionality, textural delicacy, and airiness. The string sound is to die for, and the Stellar captured and unleashed all of it.

At home, using the Ortofon Anna Diamond cartridge on the SAT arm, the result was sensational  """

 

"""" I could cite a half-dozen more references to jazz, rock, chamber, and symphonic music I listened to through the Stellar Phono over the weeks I had it in the system, using it with the Continuum Caliburn turntable/SAT CF1-09 tonearm, the HW-40 turntable/Fatboy tonearm, and, at the very end, the Air Force One Premium/Graham Elite combo—all far beyond the Stellar's pay grade. But, rather than go through that list, I'll just reiterate and certify as true what Myers said in his manual note: "(The Stellar is) innately transparent and present(s) the music with a correct display of tonal balance." """   and he used too the Lyra Atlas SL.

 

Even all those and very good Atkinson unit measurements this thread is about SUT  ! ! 

 

R.