Steam cleaning records 2

By repeatedly turning the spotlight back upon himself as the "Godfather of Record Steaming", Crem1 attracts critical examination of his method and recommendations.

Really ????
Seems like your sticky fingers are in many pies Tvad.
I wished that steam method could make some individuals "surface noise" free!

Mariusz

Is it wrong to post ideas, ideas given w/o renumeration, that actually work? The goal was to engage normal people that had vinyl that I viewed as a flawed "pop & click" medium in need of help to surive the digital explosion.

I didn't invent steam , I didn't invent RCMS, I didn't invent Handheld Steamers or record cleaning fluids. But , I did experiment & share the results. The reason ? So others could derive joy from analog collections as I had from mine. What did I gain in return ? A street mugging by internet criminals here. What is AG for ? To grant persons who have no investment in ideas to invade a Thread , shout-out reason with vile personal attacks ? With all due respect, if internet terrorists are granted control what is to happen to AG & the rest of us the Audio Community that respect this Web Site.

I have been reading a lot of their comments sprinkeled around AG, almost none forward intellectual discourse. Should this be an inkling of the future of this Web Site , AG should shut-down . Or, defend the rights of free people to discuss ideas without fear of the storm trooper idea-burners, street gang mentality that is hijacking our community.

I have to agree with Stltrains. I don't know Crem1 personally either, nor have I corresponded with him by email. I'm not even that invested in this thread, having posted here only twice before. Never-the-less, Crem1's ideas about steaming have been useful to me. My records now play better and quieter than before. Had it not been for this thread and the previous one, I would not have found out about this method. Crem1 has not contacted me for any financial renumeration for the use of his ideas. I doubt that he ever will. I'm glad he contributed here freely. There is no need for the personal attacks regardless of whether one agrees with the validity of steaming or not.

Those of you who think steaming is worthless, well, just don't steam. Use your VPI, N-G, Loricraft, or whatever and be happy.

This attack on a fellow Audiogoner is a sham and is plain embarrassing. I have not met crem or any of the other posters here on this thread in person so i surly would not write or say anything to attack them. What a shame that some have to keep pouncing on a person because he may be out spoken and get possibly creative in writing at times so what. From all of crems posts nothing was said thats going to cause any harm to your vinyl that i read. Which the theme of this thread is about STEAM CLEANING VINYL, not lets gang up on someone. Comments like i think we finally got him are in bad taste and dont belong here. I guess your closets are clean and all of you are choir boys. Its to bad for sure and if your all happy now good for you mission accomplished.

I could give a rats who came up with steaming or who has gold stars on the wall. I would like this thread to continue because i believe STEAM CLEANING is the best answer to getting your vinyl records to play with the best sound and least amount of noise. Can we move on now to finding better ways of vinyl playback by steaming or other ideas out there of getting our lps as clean and noise free as possible.
Mike

This thread long ago became one lonely mans search for relevance in a in a world that long ago left him behind. The need for attention and adulation would be better served in a forum dealing with mental health issues.
Curiously the laws of chaos and order landed this soul on a lp steam cleaning thread making this an exercise in curiosity and comedy rather than anything regarding the salvation of recorded music as implied.

Johnbrown--I have to say I completely agree. I stumbled on to this thread a few months ago and thought it might contain some useful information about cleaning and taking care of our prized records. However, it must be an axiom regarding Internet forums, but it's pretty obvious this thread is really about egos and political posturing--and worse, when challenged, some individuals become completely unintelligible. This exact thing happened a recently on another forum I belong to regarding some planar speakers. I don't understand it, but it is fascinating. For some, the ability to remain lucid and coherent is completely lost when when agitated or challenged. Someone in academia needs to publish a well researched paper on why this happens, especially on Internet forums focusing on hobbies. It's a mystery!

Ahemmm...At the risk of making this an 'English as Second Language' issue (which I'm not-believe me, I admire *anyone* who can speak more than one language), could someone please decipher Crem1's last post.

Thank you..

You know what I learned today? I have friends , true friends who can not wait to read my crem's. You warm the cock'els of mein heart. Really you do. Chashas none , err Has 1 , you be such a crem'er & that goes for Zen .. Master B ... No , No Zenblaster, yes zenbleater, yes, yes my friend(s). Only today I got a call from over-yonder. Its been proposed we have a "Zen & 1" party early next year following the CES, extracting all the friendly zappers you write to be read aloud by my other friends in the industry. You guys have a following ... My how goood you make me feel. But I confess to one little problem , naughty, naughty me. I do make mistake in giving you the details ... err business ... Please, Please read "Listener", Hi-Fi & Music Review Jan/Feb 2002, P 10 , "And It Makes A Fine Gift" : My response to the LP-Cleaning Essays & my "challenge" to the Audio writers . Thereafter, Michael Fremers 2003 article on the Handheld Hotshot 350A , a picture of which was printed as a"thumb" in "Stereophiles" 4/3/03 or (04) ," Recommended Components 2003" about 3 to 6 pages in to the components section, on R.H.S. Now chashasn'tany ,please read the issue & tell your readers what is printed under the thumb ... Or perhaps Zen has the issue & can do the job. Remember, don't be lazy find the exact issue read it & report back. But ,FRIENDS, who could forget??? "Stereophile" Jan/2006 , "All quiet on the Vinyl Front, Part 2,P37 !!... Sorry, I get sooo excited knowing your eyes are glued to the screen ... Ha Ha , just a good natured Got YA ? ,no,no but I got you. Hee, Hee. Now don't it make you feel good you have so many Euro-Readers in stiches ??? Cheers!

Crem, I think we've finally got you.....

" I have been published in the Audio print world several times & I even got a "thumbs-Up" in the "2003 Recommendations issue of Stereophile"

Crem- Would you provide links to these various publications. I looked through Stereophiles 2003 Recommendations Issue and could find no mention of steam cleaning.

What a ride these last few years must have been for you, congratulations!

You are not looking in the right places. The 3/2003 Recommended issue contains a thumb photo of a steamer in the border . I recommended that steamer to Mr. Fremer who months earlier published an article recommending the process to readers for dirty LPS. That article was a result of his interest in my comments in "Listener". We discussed the merits of steam via email for months prior to publishing. The thumb was discrete but nonetheless support to the cleaning method recommended earlier to readers. Later, in 2006 he included my views in his 2 part article on record cleaning. All the articles are copyrighted & can not be posted without permission that Stereophile grants that for a fee I feel no need to pay. What do you care ? You don't give a tinkers damn(ol'english) about steam cleaning. Do you.

Hi Crem, could you post the article you refer to from Stereophile? or give page #? I find no such mention.
Thanks

I won the Pinewood Derby when I was a Cub Scout.

Johnbrown: I do respect the fact you do a tad of homework. You must agree that according to the tests results ,available for public viewing ,the waters are closely aligned. Most respectfully, you are also fail to respect another important fact ; many , many LP owners are Steam Cleaning with excellent results .

What you bring to the table, is your prevailing view not to steam clean. Ok, I got it. But we are "Steam Cleaning 2". As for sharks in small ponds, what are you thinking? This whole word world started for me in 2000 when I responded to a issue of "listener" that detailed the cleaning preferences of 14 known Audio Reviewers here & across the pond. 13 used vaccum RCMS & one did nothing but blow breath upon the record surface. This was the first time anyone detailed (in print) "Steam Cleaning" & nothing has been the same. The phone started ringing & invites to speak at Audio Groups & Audio Manufactures hasn't diminished.

JB, I've learned a lot. I saw what I called "my gift" to analog'ers turn into a business for some , igniting discussions on sonic fingerprints that led to reformulations of many products. Am I an insider , no way! But, I do sit at the table at times with dozens of audio designers & receive emails from around the world on the Steam Cleaning topic . I have been published in the Audio print world several times & I even got a "thumbs-Up" in the "2003 Recommendations issue of Stereophile". Not bad for having ideas. JB, I'm out to inform , to change to paradigm in regard to Steam Cleaning , simply , because Steam Cleaning works. (Z: I know how much you can't stand self promotion , don't write , I'll do it anyway.)

As for the news article, it is my understanding the reporter failed to follow-up that the water was not the issue. As for micro-contamination, even Reagent Grade water makers make no claim beyond manufacture & shipping that the product is Reagent Grade 1. As for your assertion that reagent water is certified , spot-on. Aqunafina is tested daily but my understanding It is not certified daily. I did re-review the web site ; I apparently did not fully read the shipping description,$112.00 is for 4 gallons. But,that does not change the fact that the waters appear closely related in purity but a wide gap appears in price.As for the water sources & filtering processes, you are misinformed, they are closely aligned. As for who I spoke to in regard to water issues, spice makers consume huge quanities of pure water and must comform to Government inspection & policy . JB, should you take 8-10 hours to read both SC threads you will find references to several interviews I have conducted & the Water Thread that we both recommend. I respect the fact you are willing to pay $11.00 per Gal. for water. Respect our right to determine if that is the only alternative.

One recommendation, don't be so cheeky . Spend a few bucks get your self a Handheld Household Steam Cleaner & SC your LPS using Reagent Grade 1 to Steam & Rinse. You just might become a Steamer! Cheers! Go in good health & peace.

Thanks, Johnbrown!
I'm having shirts made that says "Mikey don't steam".
(contrary to what some have tried to say)

Has anyone heard of using reverse osmosis water for a rinse?

Amazing...

First, your "facts".

You say: "The cost for a 1/2 Gal.of Casco-Nerl Water , Reagent Grade I , is $55.00 USD or $112.00 USD for 1 Gal."

Now, here again, is the link from my post above where one-anyone-can buy a 5 gallon container of NERL Type 1 Reagent Grade water for 55.00 delivered to your door. I'll do the math for you-that extrapolates to 11.00 per gallon, *not* the 112.00 a gallon that you insist on. No matter how many times you say that NERL Reagent Grade Type 1 water costs 112.00 a gallon does not make it a "fact". Yes, you'll need to do some work to verify this assertion: you'll need to *click on the following link*. Good luck.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/casco-nerl-water-reagent-grade-9800-5.html

As for consulting someone at a 'spice' company to discuss water purity, that's...interesting. I'm sure you could call lots of folk in various and sundry industries and eventually find someone to agree with you, if for no other reason than to get you off the phone. And did you ask your nephrology nurse if, in a pinch, she would substitute Aquafina for dialysis patients? Let's just assume that's a "no".

Say, here's a fun article about Aquafina:

http://www.the-signal.com/news/article/12435/

Which brings us to a salient point-Aquafina is a Pepsi product, produced at your local bottling plant because it's cheap and easy, and saves on shipping charges. However, for that reason and because there is no government oversight, it's actual quality is dependent on who's cleaning the machinery, changing the filters, checking the final product, etc. on any given day, at any given plant across the country.

For that reason alone, I'm willing to pay my 11.00 a gallon for my NERL water. My five gallon investment will last me years, and hundreds, if not thousands, of records. Others may not be willing to spend that much. *That's fine with me*. Anyone here can use ditch water for all I care-and simply because M. Fremer suggests something doesn't mean it's true. BTW-where did you read that Mikey steam cleans his records? Another curious "fact".

Finally, please read this slowly and carefully: I don't want to usurp your Rightful Place as 'King of the Steam Cleaners'. I don't, and won't, steam clean my records for various reasons, so I have no desire to be the big fish in this very, very small pond. Whatever it is, it's all yours, but if I see something that I know is incorrect in your posts, or anyone's, I'm going to bring that error to the attention of anyone following the thread.

For anyone who wants to learn about water purification from an actual expert, there's a great post right here on A'gon that will answer more questions than you probably want to ask. Link below...

via con dios

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1132333988&read&keyw&zzpure=water

I steam cleaning as a part of a cleaning regime i use once. Since I buy used records from a variety of places and many times the records are pretty grundgy, i find the cleaning regime works well to consistently clean records. I have used traditional regimes including DIY formulations to commercial cleaners(disk doctor, etc). Steaming vs nonsteam cleaning regimes works well imo for most common cleaning applications. I believe the quality of the rinse water is critical as is the quality of water used in the steaming process. Again, I clean once (whether steaming or not), then rely on quick brush (microfiber) prior to playing. As far as steaming vs nonsteaming, some records i have cleaned via typical methods just did not get the groove 100% cleaned the first time. It was not every record, but those that needed extra attention. (Most of us have brought one or two in this type of condition). anyway, since i have included steaming as part of my cleaning regime, i have not had any that i thought about recleaning. Again, this is my experience only.

Z: Sending personal email had nothing to do with it. I previously made mention of the matter so I wanted to assure regular readers that Kipdent did all possible to honor repayment. Thank you , Kip.

As for the JB's sniping on water matters here are the facts, Nerl Water: The cost for a 1/2 Gal.of Casco-Nerl Water , Reagent Grade I , is $55.00 USD or $112.00 USD for 1 Gal. v.s. 3.16 Gal. of Aqunafina for $4.00 to $5.00 USD. Published specifications for Casco-Nerl Water as to;boiling point,specific gravity,flash point,vapor pressure,vapor density ,solubility & evaporation rate; all were found to be "essentially like water" or "same as water" per the standards published in CFR. Title 29, sec.1900-1200. The only differences I noted in specific resistance @ 0.2 micron for Nerl v.s. 2.0 micron for Aqunafina. Aqunafina standards are 500x lower than the EPA standard for drinking water from springs. As for soluable materals both Water's report to be near zero or zero in all published & measurable parameters . I consulted with the Supervisor for McCormick Spice Industries on the subject of water purity. He states it is common practice in Industry to maintain water purety at or to lower #'s than reagent grade as to keep flavors at certian consistent levels when used as a spray to coat corn or potato chips as for two of hundreds of examples in food. I consulted with a Supervising Nurse at a Pa.Kidney Dialysis Centre who said Reagent Grade water is used in the process because purity is warrented against lawsuit. Ok, so what's the difference between Nerl & Aqunafina waters ? So far,certification is done constantly to Federal guidelines for Nerl & packaging to medical standards.

I have requested further clarification from Aqunafina to explain what differences do exist and if my assertion of 99% is correct or near correct.

Z: I have posted this many times, I rarely (if ever) find a reason to steam clean beyond the initial steam . I agree that changing the inner-seleve & sealing the LP in a poly bag is essential to keeping a record as clean as possible. I formerly used a Hunt Brush but currently use a Destatic Brush found in Audio Catalogs for $30.00.

I am also considering a whole house duct cleaning & electro-dust filtering system to reduce home contamination.

But, so far I have never found a demand to give a LP a second steam cleaning. I will not rule out a steam rinse but have yet to do so. My viewpoint differs from some industery types that feel Steam Cleaning will never be profitable to promote unless conducted 3 to 4 times per year per LP. I think that is unfounded.

As to ho72: U so Funny ... Why build a vaccum system when one only needs to house a "Little Green Machine" , a complete system easily adapted to being the heart of a RCM for $25'ish used on Ebay. Hee, hee easy money to all.

Crem-
Sending your personal e-mail through the Agon steam cleaning thread? Haven't you chided others for moving off topic? Then again, I can see how you would mistake this for your own.

As I asked before and hoped that you would chime in. Do you steam clean your records after every play or 10 plays? How often do you clean each record? JB said that I would be all right just cleaning 1 time initially and then maintaining with a brush thereafter. Wondering what others frequency of steaming is?

Smile Crem and remember- the only compliments that are worthwhile come unsolicited

Kipdent: Thank you for forwarding the full cost to purchase & mail the Living Solution Steamer. All the best.

Thank you, the handslap reference to publishing is a worthly consideration.

Man, crem1, you're nothing if not cranky. This is a relatively open forum, I have as much right to be here as anyone, and my views are just as valid as yours. Re-read my post-all I disputed was your cost figure for Type 1, reagent grade water, and wanted your fan club to realize that 'Aquafina' is *not* a substitute. Again-Aquafina may be fine for your purposes, but it's not even in the same league purity-wise as Type 1, reagent grade water.

I don't use your process, but I'm sure it's fine for whomever wants to do it. But I *do* use NERL Reagent Grade Type 1 water for my final, RCM rinse and it's made a big difference in the sonics of my records. For the record, I wouldn't even consider substituting a locally-bottled 'pure' water like Aquafina for a water that is so refined it could be used to perform dialysis.

Oh, yeah, I also cautioned against taking Mikey Fremer on face value. Not that he's necessarily wrong, but he's also not above reproach. Caution is advised...

If those two comments were enough to rub you the wrong way, I apologize. And I'm looking forward to seeing your upcoming tome-'Steam-Cleaning Records:How I Changed The World As We Know It' on the NYTimes bestseller list.

via con dios

Johnbrown : You claim to have no part of the dogfight but here you are. Who are you ? A chemist ? A doctor? Maybe someone in the audio biz? Your views are so ironclad. I find it so amazing that folks (like your self) will incriminate a process designed to enhanse the listening experience ,yet, spend thousands of thousands of hard earned dollars to be in analog without a wimper. Instead of directing fiefs do some homework. If you have not deciated time & effort to mastering steam cleaning how can you be so over-reaching? I should never be surprized at human nature. Galileo was in his time imprisoned , his family disgraced , his daughter forced to become a Nun , just because his scientific studies(using a self-designed telescope) concluded the Sun was at the centre of the "universe" not the Earth.

I have a feeling your near 60 years old. Something happens to grey-beards , they go white. No shades of grey , just white.

The whole discussion on Aqunafina was centered on finding a cheap reasonable alternative water source that is reasonablely clean, according to EPA standards. According to the Aqunafina web site they make some interresting statements.Johnbrown the object of this thread is to forward Steam Cleaning , not debate its merits with non-users. I'm done. Have a good evening.

Zen- You should, excepting for special circumstances, only need to do it once. Just store them in good-quality sleeves immediately after play, and use a carbon fiber brush just before play. Done and done.

I checked out that site from Fremer and was amazed that someone would go to those extremes to clean a record.
A question for you extreme steamers. How many times do you play the record between this procedure? I can't imagine it is after every play so what do you do before playing between steams?

I don't steam my new vinyl, I think that something is wrong if I have to go to that extreme on a new platter, although i do clean them as there are usually some minor stuff on them.I do steam my records if I get a used one with some built up gunk. That is usually the last time my record will see steam as I keep them pretty good with other less invasive cleaning methods that also require much less time. I'll be damned if I am going to spend more time cleaning a recored than listening to it. That's were I draw the line.

Actually, NERL Type 1 Reagent Grade water is available for 55.00 dollars per 5-gal container, delivered to your door. http://www.opticsplanet.net/casco-nerl-water-reagent-grade-9800-5.html

I have no dog in this fight, but if you think that 'Aquafina' has gone through the same filtering cycle as medical grade Type 1 water-or anything even close-you're sadly deluding yourself.

Not matter what Mikey Fremer says. In fact, I immediately analyze with great skepticism *anything* he says. If I didn't, I'd be using this ridiculous cleaning regimen found on his website. http://www.musicangle.com/feat.php?id=54

"If it's good enough for the Fremer, it's good enough for me." didn't they sing that in Sgt. York?

"Might they adversely affect the records we are so intent on preserving?"

Absolutely, as might impurities in the air. That's why I'm building a vacuum chamber for my listening room.

Yes, I'm joking. :)

Readers: In my part of the US, "Aqunafina" is on sale. 24 bottles equaly'ing near 3.16 Gal of pure water is being sold for $3.99 in discount houses & $4.99 in SuperMarkets. "AQ" is reportly near 99% as pure a Nerl water that reportly costs about $80-$100 per 5 Gal inc. shipping as opposed to the price of "AQ" in your area. Just a mention.

Now lunch at Denny's I will reject to, blanket or otherwise. If you keep eating there you'll not be around to steam or clean....

Mike, not to derail the thread (sorry I'm not talking steam, Crem) but how are you getting on with the Shakti hallographs?

Hi Mike, I know steam from a kettle or iron will burn you, and definitely make a record bend--have you ever seen those bowls-whatever they make from vinyl? A friend gave me one as a Xmas present, I wasn't that impressed. So, I'm not sure what you are using to steam with, but steam in general is fairly hot, and I wouldn't chance it on my vinyl. Maybe your steam is more like a soft mist? like a vaporizor?

Hell no to the second question, you should see some of the whacky things I have done for the quest of better sound.
I've treated boards with larch varnish for better sounding walls, I've bolted birch boards on my wood floors to give a more secure footing for my speakers, I've spent zillions of hours auditioning equipment and cables. I've tried all sorts of room treatments. I think I've done more than a little for my positive returns. lol

I'm a little younger than you.

So, do you steam or clean? Ah, I see you have a vpi cleaner. If still using, what cleaning fluids? and what have you tried?

Keep on that positive train....

Chashas1: You appear a brite , brittle person who can't keep their hands from touching the flames. Your comments have nothing to do with steaming . That is troubling . Envey in my religious tradition is an evil that we as believers must refrain from. You show a strain of thinking that doesn't truly appreciate your intelligence, a sign of youth w/o restraint. I respect your acute perception(s) & for that reason only I will answer your final question.

I enjoy re-designing Maplenoll Turntables & Tonearms. I design the air delivery systems & use my of my own air scrubers design but, alternatively, Schroder arms & AC Raven Turntables are available to me that I enjoy & experiment with often with other fanatics. I own several other tables but that is of no importance. I have learned how to tune analog set-ups as well as anyone. That's the difference. I depend on no particular dealer or manufacturer , unless they offer. And you, Noble Black Knight from where do your ideas dwell ?? How can you imagine melting LPS on a thread that has grarnered more views than almost every thread posted? Where does that logic come from?? Personally , enjoyed the OZ, brick , turrent & bats better.

Chashas1 i have to ask who said steaming will melt your records and do you really believe that? Also are you against doing a little work if it will bring you a positive return?
And if it does not offend you could offer your age?
I dont have any negative thoughts with my questions to you just wondering.
Mike

Wow, I think my friend will be most envious of your credentials--that sounds like fun. I love early photographs. I have a friend who does paintings from them.

Well, who knows, maybe someday if an easy to use steam cleaning machine,that I know won't melt my records,comes to market I'll be one of the first in line.

Good luck in your endeavors...
(oh, so what turntable do you have?)

Chashas1 : SOTA> State Of The Art. I have been granted Research Credentials at the Libary of Congress. I know a few folks there that preserve early recordings & photographs. I personally own early wax cylinders & photographs.

I don't feel the need to support the statements on water beyond what I wrote. My remarks are confined to vinyl not wax or other compounds and are amply supported by doctumention.

I'm not a chider & don't pontificate(in my view). I'm guilty of attempting to reform the paradigm with regard to record cleaning. Its worth the effort...Good luck to you.

Hi Crem, you're funny... and touche, I suppose...

All right then, how do you propose I hear a steamed cleaned record? If we lived in close proximity it would be worth the drive for me to hear the wonder of wonders. Or if I send you a record will you steam it for me? I'm not defending the cleaning method I'm using now, the Audio Intelligent, I'm just saying when I use it I hear nothing but the music flowing out, if it's a good recording/pressing to begin with, much much better than if I hadn't used it at all, that sort of black between the notes reviewers talk about.
I'm not against your steaming totally, it just seems like a lot of work when you have a product that seems to be doing a dandy job, why make things harder on yourself?
Plus, a friend has done some checking with the Library of Congress, who he defers to on all matters of media, seems to go contrary to your opinion, and offers their own formula for a cleaner. Again, it's not the be all end all, but maybe neither is your steaming.

And as for the golf ball, you can chide me all you want. I was warned when I got one some people would make with the cracks. So I gave a short retort. I didn't think I was attacking your steaming method. More like I was bothered by your pontification of it.

And, you didn't answer when I asked what your comment was regarding SOTA. If you're using a sota table, then we have nothing further to discuss....

good luck and take care

Thread : Well Tempered Amadues's Use of a Golf Ball.

Actual Posted Comment:

"Such arrogance,such idotic babble. How can you comment on something you haven't experienced ?"

Posted by Chashas1, dated 2/17/09, Post # 53 ...

I do know I hear no residue when using Audio Intelligient cleaners. I think I'd rather steam clean my carpet than records....

Nickiguy's analysis is spot on. My view for the widely varying results stem from variables such as how the work is performed , the cleaning machines (included or excluded), the use of a record cleaning fluid vs water , as well as, what type of water from Tap to NERL. And I agree that steaming is time consuming. Thankfully, one does not steam with every playback.

As for record cleaning fluids, it is my view Audio Intelligence Products and Disc Doctor are examples of superior products available to the consumer. Of course, homebrew is certianly available but only if you know what your doing. Smearing home made goop is no more a benefit than rubbing sand on the groves.

In my view, AI & DD fluids do very well is to "lift" the gunk & dispence some in the air & dilute the contaminates. They dislodge some of the sonic fingerprint. In my opinion the only way to remove the sonic finger print is thru Steaming or pure water baths , most likely both. Now, that is time consuming.

And lastly an explaniation for the widely varring results ? Some , a few, ain't Steaming tat' all. Their questions or responses do not reflect hands-on experience. They , for-what-ever-reason(s) , comment on what they, in my view, do not know.

One quick follow-up. I have noted seasonal adjustment issues with SME , Rega , All "S" arms & Grace. In my view all tonearms are subject to adjustment issues that affect tonality, midrange-smearing and mis-tracking.

The analogy would be air pressure to car tires. All car tires require perodic checks to determine correct air pressure. Subtal changes can not be seen with the eye. A air gauge is used to balance out the air reading for each tire. Wally Kits and other set-up adjustment tools are required to assure the tonearm is operating at the manufactures recommendations. The changes can range all over the spectrum , re-adjustment is required to return the tonearm to optimal operating conditions. Without such adjustments you are flying by the "seat-of-your pants" in analog.

When one steams a record , the recording silghtly swells someting measurable in a Lab setting. It is for that reason I always recommend a "rest" period prior to playback for the LP to re-sizes itself. The same is true when one plays a LP. The phono stylas heats the vinyl for a thousandths of a second ever-so-slightly distorting the grove that needs to re-size itself in about 1/2hr. It is for that reason a quick replay of a LP side may sound "smoother" when actually its slightly smearing/blurring delicate details the second time around. The variables in playback are such that even record cleaning using a RCM w/ cleaning fluids may sound "smooth" on a newly cleaned LP when what one is actually hearing is residue of the fluid deep in the grove acting as a filter to the needle as it glides over the grove.

It is for that reason some analog'ers perfer "wet playback" that smoothes the sound at the cost of detail.

When one over-lays all of these observations its not difficult to recognize why in analog playback is so challenging ... To view the "Turrents of OZ" not just the bricks on the road... Bats 'an all.

In my view, tonearms such as the Schroder Reference ($7,500 & up) need to be re-tuned in response to weather changes. I am a fan of Frank's work & consider his tonearms works of Art. With a Schroder , weather changes scream-out to you. After you understand that one can use that as a reference point for many other Tonearms. In my view, the reason so many perfectly splended Tonearms appear on AG has to do with adjustment issues , mal-adjustments with phono cartridges having nothing to do with performace.For instance, Maplenoll Tonearms are air bearing as is the platter. Barometric changes change the alignment of the cartridge & height of the platter. Slight alignment problems "blurr" the delicate sound of a performace. Ms. Lumley was way ahead of her time, (see TAS 1983 & up). The information I outline is far-less available in a hard-rock LP but quite discernable in classical performaces. Z: If you want,God, find religion not 2 channel stereo . Set-up is everything. As for bats they use sonic vibes , our hearing is different. I do enjoy watching them against a Maryland Sky near dusk. I reside next to a Wildlife Sanctuary. Thank you for Honoring Bats.