Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Americans dont pay attention to anything in the outside world... Covid crisis was no exception...Some think that covid was about for Biden or against Trump , I will not go further ...Big pharma has anything to do with science and it is a fact They use science they dont did science it is for PROFIT only ( mass control when it is militarily driven )  .. 😊

For the thread question, it is evident that there is no rosetta stone dictionary between measurements of speakers and a specific room translation of the speakers specs. and our own ears... ( The best solution is optimize our room only for specific speakers and use a Choueiri set of filters, then it is job done )

It is simple to know why when you had played as i did with the acoustic materials content of a room , his size , his geometry and topology , and the many devices we can introduce to improve the relation between ears/speakers/room...Room acoustics can induce change that will dwarf any gear change save extreme change in quality and extreme change in design between speakers or amplifiers...

Acoustics measurements rules audio not electrical measures of the gear which anyway in any good design must be driven and submitted to acoustics and psychoacoustics measurements at the end ...

In acoustics science there is the same debates in a way between ecological theory of hearing and non ecological theory...😊

Ecological theory is gaining success because our body play a role in hearing , the body image of sound from the sound source too, so much a revolution in acoustics is brewing ..

I posted three fundamental articles about this in the thread of bolong ; "the experience of sound is mysticism"

 

I stopped watching ASR when he did a video on a power cord that he never plugged in.  He measured impedance and capacitance and rated the cable and said the cord was snake oil and not to waste any money on it. Again, he never listened to it, let alone plugging it in.

Don't get me started on ASR...

Just as one example of their flawed way of evaluating gear:

They reviewed one GR Research's budget stand mount speakers, but all they did was measure it and listen to one speaker.

As if things like: imaging, soundstage, ambience retrieval don't exist. 

They actually give it a good review, because it measured flat, had good bass, etc.  

@simonmoon They are about measurements - not really listening.

But subjective reviews are like opinions, everyone has one. Hence, I trust my ears not the reviewers.

You don't like ARS fine, I am mediocre on them, but measurements are important. As very few magazines do that anymore. 

Hate or excessive emotional reaction make us stupid....😊

I know what i think about i overreacted often ...

But i try to see the two sides of a coin...

I dont buy audiophile ideology of ASR for or against it but i like to have measurements ...