Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Showing 15 responses by audition__audio

You say you dont sell components but own a company that sources components through Harman and perhaps other companies. Madrona sells electronics yes? The money you make off these sourced components makes money for Madrona yes? I can tell by the way you answer these questions there is more to this than you are letting on. I dont believe you but it really doesnt matter.

I would think that my dealer status should be obvious. If you think this pearls before swine stuff helps my business think again. I take no radical stance other than that measurements dont tell us nearly what you would suggest. I take issue with you and some of your faithful because I believe your stance on this hobby is a tactic. A ploy to get a following and then lead them down a path that serves your purpose. You offer a simplistic solution to a confusing hobby and as such you are guaranteed a following. To what end and purpose only you know, but it isnt to help your faithful or this hobby. Remember a successful parasite doesnt kill its host. Or at least not quickly.

Where did say that I didnt like Ralph's designs or the man? I like Ralph personally but this has no bearing on my ownership and representation of his product. I obviously wouldnt buy his amps if I didnt think they had something unique to offer. 

I used "chips" for want of the correct word. I believe these chips/GanFets were made by Toshiba. Point is I was talking with Ralph about this when you were getting fired from your other jobs or winning grammys or whatever was going on in your past life according to other members.  

Your show reports suck. You blame the performance of the stereo on the music. Ask for some other music then and make some sort of effort. But why if he designs using nonperfomant (did I get this correct) tube equipment? Your mind is made up and admit that it cant possibly be viable because it is a tube product. Admit this and save us both some time.

Please a list of the industry people that have helped ASR become an industry influencer. Simple request and if you dont answer some of the faithful might take notice and start buying purple fuses.

Feel free to contact me directly if you need help with your reference system. 

Carry on Amir. 

 

 

Oh my God it is like talking with a child. You keep going back to this Harman test. Did these people know they were being tested? If so, then all data can be dismissed. Pretty simple to tell a group of listeners what to listen for and then rank them higher than those with little to no clue. Without more detail it means nothing and even less because it is most likely a marketing ploy which was implemented by an audio distributor. JAES, peer reviewed by people who believe as you do so this means very little.  You mention it because it gives you an added level of credibility to those not familiar with such things. Did Harman put on some dull music and then call it a day or did they play different music of different genres. Remember that Ralph plays real music not Diana Krall and related drivel. Real music for people that participate in this hobby for the love of music. He would have been happy to play something of your choosing which is often what real reviewers require in order to do a fair representation. Tell you what, spend $ 200K on your system and $ 10K on measurement devices and you might learn something new.

Keep up the good work Amir. We may be done so if I dont respond dont take it personally and you may tell your devotees you kicked my butt and I took my toys and went home.

Most problems arise when listeners make assertions in which no listening is involved. I applaud those that admit they dont hear a difference. Takes guts. In the end you listened and this is all that matters. 

FWIW, it takes alot to get banned on this forum. Which is as it should be. 

By now I think we all know the real Amir. Unfortunate that he found a bunch of people that seem to be as impressed with him as he is with himself. I respect anyone that builds something and because of this I get doubly upset when the ego of one person prevents proper development. Do as I plan to do. Ignore him and dont visit ASR. 

Yeah academia. What a trip!

At least with some academics you get some viable arguments and up until recently discourse was encouraged. 

My advice is to trust your instincts. Take what Amir has posted on this thread and judge for yourself. Take a close look at the responses of other members and then think of your experience with people in your past that exhibit certain tendencies and judge not only who to believe but who is attempting to engage in meaningful conversation. A lecture or discourse. Further take a look at possible motivations. I respect the attempt to indoctrinate for financial gain more than an attempt to indoctrinate for the satisfaction of one person's ego. 

Read these forums, visit both sites, read what the members have to say and how they treat those with whom they disagree and take note. Further avoid people that are constantly taking about themselves and attempting to convince you of their worthiness or superiority. A true asset to this community will let others build them up and will let the hobby decide who is a true asset. Avoid people who speak in terms of absolutes and  avoid people who discourage you from buying based on anything but actual experience. 

Enjoy the trip. Music and audio can be a wonderful journey despite the best efforts of those who will try to convince you that you cant trust your own senses. Even more ridiculous is these people may attempt to convince you they have your best interest at they discourage experimentation.

Many of us will be dead soon so it is encouraging to know that there exist a few enthusiasts below the age of 50.

 

Wow need to proof before posting. Who knew! Should be "have your best interest at heart as they discourage experimentation". 

Yeah I was a bit taken by the "edge phenomenon" comment. That entire paragraph sets an interesting tone and sheds an interesting light on the "process". I am not on that page either. 

The last post from Amir was pretty wild. The assertion that we can accurately measure what we hear isnt taken seriously be anyone I trust or would go to for advice. Seems so obvious. 

No good quality electronics doesnt infer low noise and distortion. What is the level of noise and distortion that separates good from bad? What many dont seem to understand is that you can have components with higher levels of noise and distortion but that perform better in other areas which some deem to be of more significance. How then would you explain the resurgence of vinyl and tubed electronics? 

 

I am with nonoise on this. For once I wasnt the first person to say something. 

Yeah the medical/audio analogy was beyond ridiculous. But hey if you look at the rest of his post he kind of misses the fact that the most extreme views are held by Amir and ASR. Nowhere has anyone said that measurements have no place in the design and evaluation of equipment.

 

 

I just watched the BBC clip. So I guess we will need to close our eyes when listening sessions are supplemented with live performers. Absolute drivel.

Well my guess is that some love music and others love devices. JA was quoted earlier. Not JA s biggest fan, but he certainly doesnt take an overly extreme position. I believe he majored in music and played in a band or two back in the U.K.  A musician with a proclivity towards measurement. 

 

 

Notice not one word about the sound of Mike's system, just that he couldnt tell the difference in cables. Plus this is just one enthusiast who may have been able to tell the difference if he werent in an adverse situation in which he knew he was being tested. Notice he (that guy) keeps mentioning JA from Stereophile but doesnt mention that JA isnt a fan of double blinds. 

"Using our testing methodology". HMMMM. 

For the record I have never been a fan of Transparent cables. If memory serves the big deal has something to do with reducing or eliminating the vibration of the conductor or was this MIT? Anything but transparent with the less expensive cables from my experience. So not what I would pick as a viable representative of higher priced cables. Although I have never had a speaker cable in any of my systems over $ 10K.