|
One last point, Darumas II have no weight limit listed, and should work fine for 50lb unit. MIBs seem more robust and better suited for very heavy objects, I believe Aurios says they can support up to 1000lbs. Max sway is @1/2 inch in any direction but only occurs if you push/touch unit, swaying stops soon and unit appears stationary in actual use.
Now who else has an ultrathin cable experience? |
G'men, would DarumaII support ~50lbs (weight of my cdp)? Also, how far does the movement go: I have little available space on the lightweight table the player is sitting on.
Thanks! |
Thanks Sam: I like his initials, they are kind of catchy. |
Red, since I feel MIBs give the best sound I would use them under CDP. The darumas are not built to hold as much weight
as RBs or MIBs so if your speakers are not too heavy by all
means try them under speakers.
Dave AGON member DK405 sells daruma II, he is in CA and very reliable. You will have to find some way to nuetralize Whale AC cord weight use these in your system, Absolute cords are great for bearing isolation, very light. Final Labs makes them but have few dealers, DK405 (Dave Kerns) has website with photos
http://hometown.aol.com/dk405/myhomepage/index.html |
I am not familiar with the Daruma II's. Is there a website with info on them? Unlimited roll is somewhat of a problem for me in CA, but now that I am using a traditional rack I can put up guard rails of a sort. |
I wonder what the wide variance in soundstaging charcteristics of most cables says about how they effect the increase/decrease in various parts of the frequency spectra. Given that we all continue to use the same electronics and speakers, what else could be going on but that?
In my own case, switching from silver-coated copper (DHLabs) to pure copper (Coincident) yielded a warmer sound with a slightly wider soundstage: clearly, more low freq's. Also a marked forward movement of the image: more mid-range or perhaps recessed treble? Double Helix raises, broadens and deepens the image while describing an arc which is somewhat forward between the speakers and curves back behind them towards the wall: I have no idea what is going on with the frequencies here! If the OTA is so forward as to mimic headphones, or "fill the room with sound" as Dekay has written, there must be some drastic frequency related effect on reflected sound.
I wonder why I've never read about using one of those zillion dollar spectrum analyzers to record these differences? Is anyone aware of it? Do cable manufacturers play with tonal shifts to achieve certain imaging/tonality? Or is it all serendipitous, "that sounds good, let's produce it?" |
Megasam, I tried the home-made variety (three different designs) and concluded that the bearings worked well under CDP but not my tube power amps. Then I got the Darumas and was blown away - different league from the home-made ones and so am happy to re-visit the tube amps. So now I am thinking of getting one set of Aurios for CDP and another set of Darumas - the two sets of Darumas either going under tube monoblocks or under speakers (either way the weight is not extreme). Any ideas?
Sorry for temporarily hi-jacking this thread. |
Red and other ultrathin cable users, these designs have to be the mechanically the best possible design for bearing
isolation devices(Aurios MIB, Rollerblocks, Daruma II) as
they offer almost no resistence to the free floating effect
of bearings on CDP. Now you must address the AC cord.
Daruma II are best value of bearing isoaltion group by far, MIB and Rollerblock take the sound improvements even further, for a price. I have been obsessed with bearing isolation for CDP and own one set of all three to experiment
with. I feel any of these is superior to any cone set I have heard under CDP
I am glad to see so many are trying this rather radical step of ultrathin minimalist cables, I will sit back till the dust settles and like Capt Kirk will watch you brave
audiophiles "boldly go where no audiophile has gone before" |
Hi Dekay
I have been playing with some Daruma Bearings recently and found that they did a wonderful job between CD player and the Neuance shelf (whereas no other hard device did previously, except perhaps the Super DH Cones). Using the Darumas the best sound occurred with the OTA untwisted.
Ken once suggested to me that the vibration control needs of CD transports differ depending on the construction of the transport and that this varied from one to another.
So I am now listening to what seems to me like the best of both worlds - the openness of the OTA untwisted, but improved solidity and clarity of images due to the Darumas (the waftiness has gone).
One of the imaging issues with the OTA cable is that the soundstage expands so much that some listeners may feel a need to sit further away from the speakers. With the OTA cables you are drawn far more into the soundstage itself, a bit more like listening to giant headphones. I happen to think it is just more natural that way. While images seem more precisely defined laterally with my other cables, it also seems like the images are flattened cardboard cut-outs compared with the presentation from the OTA cable. |
Redkiwi: Cold sounds good to me right now. I can't stand A/C, but did price ceiling fans today. Other than liking the sound of the little MF X amp that I have, I am glad that I held on to it for this sort of thing. |
Dekay, to answer your previous question, my beach house is undergoing work at present and so the system is stored (too cold here right now to crave the beach anyway). Well-spotted, it would have been an ideal way to run in the OTA cable. When I set it up again it will probably soak up all the remainder of my OTA kit, so I am thinking about getting another one. |
Moto: Because it does not sound the same. I have already experimented with the OTA plastic RCA's and (26) gage solid core silver and copper "quality wire" from other sources and cannot achieve the sound of this cable. I came up with one set of IC's using a pseudo air dialectic design, that sounded good, but after a few weeks listening concluded that they (though better to me than some pro IC's that I have used in the past) are not nearly as good as the stock OTA. The kit contains 50 meters of cable, by the way. Consider me an audio fascist if you must, by I tend to judge items by the end result (how they sound), not by how that sound is achieved and this stuff is apparently not your average run of the mill 26 gage Teflon insulated cable. So, for $600 I have enough cable to install speaker wire in two systems, plus have three sets of IC's at my disposal. The fact that both the IC's and the speaker cable are by far the best sounding that I have ever used, makes it a frugal purchase I would say. I will still play around with different IC designs, because it is cheap fun and I figure that I can't burn down the house doing so. Anyway, give it a try and see what you come up with. Oh, and I am pretty sure that the copper wire is 26 gage, but am not positive. |
Sorry to be a skeptic, but why is $600 for a 50 foot (meter?) spool of 24 guage copper wire and a few terminators a good deal? What, if anything, is the difference between the OTA 24 guage OFC solid core copper wire and 24 guage copper wire purchased at an electrical supply house at substantially less? I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade . . . just wondering why I shouldn't just DIY for a lot less . . . |
Hi Kitch29, how you been?
What are we waiting for? I'm thicker than most. |
Hey Brulee, we're waiting! |
Redkiwi: I logged 300+ hours on my set, but it was easy because I used a SS amp for 200+ hours of it. No way would I have been able to do that with the tube amp alone in such as short time. I am glad to hear that they have worked out for both applications on your setup as I had no way to judge the "way low" frequencies myself. Now all that I have to do is to find a way to keep "Eddie the Thug", our largest cat from clipping them off of the speaker terminals (he's the cat that "hugs" the speakers). Kitch gave me a few good ideas that I will check out. Are you going to try it out in the SS system at the getaway residence? Ken has done the true test though, IMO, his vinyl posts of late have me drooling for a turntable and a phono preamp again. I shopped a few thrift stores out in the Valley today (as in Valley Girl) and the LP assortment was mind boggling @ 99 cents a copy. |
My OTA cables are now back on the woofers after burn-in, and settled down, and I take back any of my previous reservations. The sound is much better than garden hose on the woofers and OTA on the electrostatic. The garden hose sounds ponderous and noisy by comparison. Don't know why, but they took much longer to burn in than the others. |
Caterham1700, I was wondering where those isolation shelves came from! Nice work. 47 labs had them all resting directly on the floor (no rack at all). Did you intend them to be used this way? Besides visually reinforcing the idea of simplicity, I could not understand the reason for a rackless system--especially since the 47 Labs room was on the third floor of the Hotel, and people were tramping in and out regularly. Either: they have a very casual attitude towards resonance and vibration; or: they place absolute trust in your shelves. They also had a very relaxed attitude about moving the STRATOS cables around. They continually moved one between the FLATFISH CD Player to the PITRACER CD Player without any noticeable signs of anxiety that this would jeapordize the sound of their display system. As for the geometric arrangement of the cables, they did not twist the two cables around each another, but ran them parallel and adjoining with sharp bends to ensure a rectilinear cable infrastructure. It was difficult to detect the type of movement-induced anomalies to the cables that have been referred to here since each move of the cable was continually accompanied by a change of component, and because the speaker system was limited low frequency, and also because they played recordings with limited bass and also because the listening session had to satisfy the demands of product exhibition for a large mass of people. Despite all that, I thoroughly enjoyed this system's lucidity. |
Thanks Ken: I will take a look at the crossover connections and see what I can do without modding anything for a trial run. I might be able to split (on one side) a piece of the empty OTA insulation and make a preasure clamp of sorts out of it. I'm sure that it should be fairly simple to get something temporary going. |
Hi Dave,
99% likelyhood that they were crimped if at all practical from what I know of the gentleman behind the loudspeaker.
Ken |
Come on guys. Were they crimped, soldered or other to the drivers crossovers/drivers? |
Slawney,
Did you notice the dark grey isolation shelves that 47Lab used at Frankfurt? Guess who?*wink*
The loudspeaker was designed and built by Sead Lejlic of Konus Audio, the european 47Lab distributor and they use a transmission line enclosure.
Best,
Ken |
I am ready to take the plunge! By reading all of the above is the price for the IC's $300? What is the length of cable that you receive? Can it be ordered with balanced or unbalanded connectors? Do I order direct from 47 labs US
distributor?
Thanks, Bob
|
47 Labs OTA POWER CABLES next? Shunyata owner's desperately trying to sell of their King Cobra's for a power cable a little thicker than the "fishing line" mentioned above? Redkiwi, Dekay, Brulee, Kitch29 describing in minute detail the very noticeable frequency aberrations introduced into their system when they pick up, twist, and drop their 47 Labs POWER CABLE? aberrations that would be disturbing to any listener but quickly forgotten after the cables returned to their normal "vivid" operation? What I am saying is not a dream. At the High End 2001 Trade Fair in Frankfurt last week, three wise, attentive and artistic engineers from 47 Labs proudly displayed their System, trying to leap gracefully over the very tall linguistic barrier between them and the German audiophiles asking about "those cables." When, all of a sudden, Slawney noticed in cold sweat what was connected to the 4 Power Dumpties (the high capacity transformers feeding all of their components)! Well, they were all connected in parallel to a single plastic AC plug (German wall outlet) with very thin fishing-line wire that looked very similar to the STRATOS wire 47 Labs were using on all of their components (maybe the Power Cord wire was a little thicker than 0.4mm OFC interconnect and speaker wire, but not by much). I know that the KIT says about the Stratos wire: "do not use them as power cords!" but it certainly seemed like these 47 Labs engineers were using something very similar to the OTA cable system for their power cables. And talk about vitality, lucidity, liveliness, instantaneous energy, speed! This system was the most jaw-dropping demonstration of the effects of bare-essentials component parts, short signal paths, and minimalist cabling I have ever experienced! It compelled me to adopt a new mode of understanding and experience. (So here comes the poetry.) Every event in the music communicated itself to me with supreme intelligibility--a system internally and externally illuminated and inflamed by the music itself! I even felt I could dispense with all of those means I require in order to give my system warmth and luminosity at home (those tubes)! The entire meaning of the 47 Labs demonstration could not be simpler: there is no reason for intentional complexity and a confusing multiplicity of circuits styles. The simplest, most direct means are the means by which the electronic poet attains a sense of wonder and rapt interest for the musical work, so as to intensify it into a feeling of amazement! The impression of idealized immediacy and purity I was experiencing could only be achieved by not resorting to artificial, overly-complex devices. Music returned to the power of feeling, and despite the fact that the small speakers they were using responded much less than typical speakers to low frequencies, now internal details, which until then had been banished from the stage by complex signal paths, compelled the listener to passionate participation, stretching out the emotion. And what WERE these speakers I was listening to? Three-way speakers with gigantic active sub-woofers! Just kidding. It was just a plain, single tiny 6" Jordan driver in a wood tombstone with no binding posts, the STRATOS going directly into the cabinet to the speaker itself. OTA Kit owner: Get the screwdrivers ready and take out those binding posts! Needless obstacle robbing you of the sound of pure music! ... The difficult last step to the MINIMALIST ZEN SYSTEM (anti-system) is being made right now at audiogon by a few wise disciples of the eminent masters from 47 Labs. |
I was getting to the point where I was going to suggest trading speaker cables for a few weeks, double helix for OTA but now it sounds like you wouldn't want to part with it. There goes another $600. Anybody else want to split a set? |
Bruce, it's good to have your endorsement of the product. I wired up a friends system (speaker wire only) with the extra cable that I had and he asked last week if he could run it for another month (which means that I won't be getting it back:-). When I get back to work, I will pick up another OTA kit to do the spare and bedroom systems and would have needed more RCA's and cable anyway (the runs are a bit long and I did not calculate them properly in the first place). I did a quick test on the spare room system and even on cheap (speakers) the OTA made a big improvement in the sound (much more enjoyable), so I will want to use it in both of the bedrooms. Neither of these systems are really Hi-fi but if I can make them sound better for $300 each then it's worth it to me. |
Caterham makes a suggestion, Redkiwi and Decay do all the homework and brulee tags along for the ride. Thanks to all three of you. I love being in this company.
I can't add much because these 3 have said it all so well.
I was loaned the Kimber top of the line speaker cable and IC which retails near $9000. I thought this stuff was very good. Damn well should be! I owned the Quattro Fil ICs and wondered what all the fuss was about. I bought the Coincident speakers a couple of years ago and thought I would try there wire. I did not think it was better than the Kimber 1030 but in some ways I preferred it. Then I heard the FIM speaker cable and thought I was Through looking for speaker cable. I then got hold of some Venture ICs that I was thinking of putting in my system but when I was told that retail was $3500 all of a sudden the Coincident was good enough. Then I saw Caterham talking about the OTA kit and then came along Redkiwi's thread. I asked Dekay if he would like to go in half on the OTA kit and he agreed. When I received my half I had to laugh. It looks like 10lb test fishing line. Redkiwi and Caterham must have lost it somewhere along the line. Sorry guys, I should know better.
The first thing I noticed was all my other ICs would cause congestion or what Redkiwi calls smear. This lack of smearing is what seperates this IC from all others I have heard. A week later I put the OTA speaker cable in after a 100 hours of break-in. I have been using the very fine FIM Gold and Coincident Total Reference speaker cable. I go back and forth between these two. I installed the OTA speaker cable if you can call this stuff a cable. Fishing line is more like it. What a synergy! Just because I was taken for a ride on the merry go round wire game don't mean you have to. Thanks Caterham, Redkiwi and Dekay. I have never been more happy with my system.
When I go to sell my other wires what should I say as to why I'm selling? Because I like this cheap looking, whimpy, unmanly, skinny fishing line better? How about the old down sizeing routine. No more wire games for me. I'm done. Don't need to listen to any more wire. I'm through. I wonder what this stuff sounds like in silver or gold or silver and gold or |
Guys, I'll read this entire post tomorrow. Dekay, thanks for the tip I am always interested in new ideas! |
Redkiwi: Thanks, I will give this a try in couple of weeks when the fresh pair of IC's break in. I am going to break them in with daily music as you did. I need to get the spare bedroom system setup again (with the SS amp and the CDR) for my godson to use when he visits us (along with a parental filter on the computer:-). |
Try twisting them lightly Dekay. I find that untwisted, they sound a bit like the Magnan cables, albeit with much better PRAT than the Magnans. I think my cables are pretty much run in now, and I found that images were a bit "wafty" as a friend of mine puts it. Not quite "there". Till I tried a light twist, and images becaome more solid, giving me the same solidity as I get with my other cables, but with all the PRAT, clean transients, expanded soundstage and lack of grain still intact. |
Kitch: I am starting from scratch again with a new set of IC's (longer this time) that I just made up from the OTA kit. Things were sounding too pat and I needed a change. |
I was getting the same peripatetic (!) image with the mapleshade but it seems to have settled down now. At one point, Max Roach's drum kit moved right across the stage and the trumpets, trombones and tuba of the Cleveland Orchestra sounded like they were going and coming from the bathroom. I forget which movement, tchk-boom. I don't think I have as many hours on mine as you guys so the OTA must take longer to burn in. The similarities between what you describe and what I'm hearing from the double-helix are startling. I guess geometry is what's happening.
|
RedKiwi: Next time you are up to bat, please explain the image "thing" a bit further. I think that this is what I also mentioned at the end of my chat, but did not know how to go about explaining it properly. To further explain, specific placement of certain "cues" in some of the reference CD's that I use seem to be in a different location than where they were before and or I cannot specifically locate them anymore when listening in the near field. Maybe this is normal from one cable to another. I have only used a handfull of different speaker cables at home and have never spent this amount of time with most of them. |
I largely agree with Dekay's findings, but came off using Coincident ICs and Wireworld Gold Eclipse speaker cables. I have other cables from Kimber, XLO, Siltech and Straightwire (probably some others lurking in the cupboard I have forgotten too). All of them sound as if they have additive distortions compared with the OTA. I endorse all of the positives Dekay has referred to, particularly how the soundstage floats free in the room, and the utterly natural treatment of percussion (nothing else come close). The negatives I note are a certain vagueness to images, that still comes and goes, and the burn-in being prolonged and odd-sounding with the speaker cables between my valve amps and the woofers on my Martin Logans. I have been burning in the woofer cables on my daughter's system and will re-insert them in mine this weekend. It will no doubt take up to a week for them to stabilise again, so will try to remain quiet till then (unlikely, I admit). |
PS: I forgot to mention (in my rambling) that I will also be trying out half a set of the analog IC's as a digital cable (maybe in a month or two) as the Maplshade digital cable that I currently use is neither of a 75ohm or coaxial design and I figure that it's worth a shot. Maybe someone else with the "kit" will want to give this a try. |
Interesting post, D-K. Thanks for info! |
I have been using the OTA cable kit in the system listed in Virtual Systems under "SET Hide Away System" for one month now (both as Analog IC's and as speaker cable), the playing time exceeds 500 hours. Two things that changed, off and on, in the system over this period of time are: #1. The Bel Canto DAC was upgraded to 1.1 status (and then broken in for 300 hours) and #2. I periodically switched from a Musical Fidelity X-A1 solid state amp to a 300B SET amp for comparison purposes. I started out with the MF (SS) amp, first with the IC's and later added the speaker cable. Switching from a pair of Homegrown Audio Super Silver IC's the sound of the OTA IC was not quite as dynamic (no big surprise) but was equally "upfront" in that the sound came from the plane of and the space in front of the speakers (instead of from behind the speakers and then a bit forward from there as it did with a pair of HT Truthlink IC's that I had used before in this system). I ran the OTA IC's for approx. 70 hours and at this point the bass and clarity was pretty much stable (they went all over the place, sonically, during this time period, so don't drive yourself nuts if you are running/breaking a pair in). Other than still missing the added dynamics of the previous solid core silver IC's (it had only been 3 days and I still had a strong "silver" memory) these were the best IC's that I have ever tried in my setup, by a long shot. Cymbals, bells, brass and drums sounded very real (like the metal they were made of), vocals strings and piano were also spot on and the separation/distinction between various sounds was eire. I don't mean imaging by this, just that the sound was very clear, but not on the bright or thin side. They did however still sound a bit hazy overall, for short periods of time, off and on, with frequencies (narrow bands) in the bass and mid bass either dropping out or peaking (hard for me say which as at the sides of a peak are two drop outs and I have trouble telling the difference with new equipment/cable). I was becoming impatient at this point (having broken in various PC's during the months of April and May) and decided to install the OTA speaker cable and let everything run in together. I ran the combo up to a total time of approx. 200 hours (still using the SS amp) and keep in mind that the IC's now had double the playing time, plus, of the speaker cable. The speaker cable during this 125 hour period went through the same ups and downs that the IC's did, in the beginning (I wish that I had a cable burner). The speaker cable replaced was Kimber 4VS (a good budget cable) and the OTA speaker cable stomped it on the SS amp. The difference/improvemet was unbelievable and is hard to put into words as it like the difference between a bull in a pen and a bull released from a pen. It was as if the music that was now flowing had been held back (in the pen) by the previous cable. It was smoother (much more liquid sounding) yet again with amazing detail (as when you are not paying attention to the music and an instrument startles you, like a percussive that you think is someone on the patio or a knock at the door, well this was happening quite often). I had previously said that the OTA cable is a bit forward sounding (either in this thread and/or in private emails) and do not feel now that this is a good description. What is does do, on good/decent source material is free the music from the speakers in that the sound/music comes from the air (when you close your eyes) and not from the speakers themselves. This has always been a priority in my setup (which is why I am very pleased with the last PC's that I upgraded to as they also add to this effect) and this is what I like most about the OTA cable. After a total of 300 hours on the SS amp, the only changes that I was noticing (with the kit) were most likely the changes in the quality of my power supply throughout the day as late night listening was always consistent. From here I switched to the 300B SET amp, first starting with the previous IC's and speaker cable for a day and then switching to the OTA. This time, though I switched both the IC's and speaker cable at the same time, there was not as pronounced a difference between the old and the new (OTA) though is was still night and day. Maybe this was due to me being used to the sound of the OTA, maybe it really did make more of an improvement on the SS amp (due to a mismatch with the old cable?), I really don't know and was too lazy to look into it and just wanted to get more hours on the OTA cable. With the OTA cable (the IC's not the speaker cable) there is a definite settling in that takes place everytime I remove and reinstall it (even though it is fully broken in). It can take one of two days (figure 15 hours of play) to sound its best again. I have had the cats shear a few of the speaker cables and did not notice any difference when I re-stripped the end (half an inch) and reconnected them. I have not experienced the dryness, or lack of bloom, in the bass as has RedKiwi (even with the SS amp), though we have entirely different setups and also I do not use full range speakers and therefore cannot hear the bottom register as he does. So in a nutshell the OTA Cable Kit is fast, open, smooth and detailed (detailed but not thin or bright sounding). As far as the "visuals" go the sound stage is wide, deep and tall, but in the imaging department (unless it's my imagination) it seems that things have a tendency to move around a bit. I have never really concerned myself with imaging before and only notice this when listening in the near field on some recordings. Maybe it's on the recording (the engineer switched or combined tracks), but I never noticed this before with the old cable which may have been too blurred to tell, who knows? Anyway, if someone else notices this hopefully they will be able to explain what I am hearing, as I can't, and it does not detract from the musical experience as far as I am concerned. Although it is only 26 gage wire, it is full range and not rolled off at either end. Though I was coming from a budget cable (so is the OTA, when you think about it) it was on the level of replacing/upgrading a major component in my setup(s). I will be using the cable in our second budget system as well (ordinarily powered by the X-A1 amp) and when I receive an extra pair of IC's back, that are on loan, they will be used on some analog to digital recordings (tape to CD) that I will be doing later this summer. Sorry for not going into more detail (although, boy, is this a long one), but I find the sound of these cables hard to describe as their is no glare, no lack of bass or detail, etc., and they sound so different than what I am used to (as if they are not even there). Hope Audiogon doesn't charge me for this one. That is all. |
Kitch: The soft plastic RCA's are much easier to take off with your teeth, if you are so inclined. But their main purpose is to guide the wire itself to make the signal contact instead of the RCA itself. Also, thank you for coming forward with the "WOW" factor, that I have read about from a few other users of the MS cables (of course no one but them believes you:-). It's kind of funny in that we have had 12 gage or even larger drilled into our heads for many years and yet these tiny wires have "major" full bass response as well as the rest of the frequencies in spades, yet don't get hot to the touch when pumping out the tunes. LOL. When I was a teenager I gave a couple stranded out in the boondocks (in Iowa) a car battery jump with the speaker wire that I had installed in a 67 Volkswagon (it was the only thing on hand). It was the cheapest speaker wire that I could find (when installing the stereo) and was probably 22 gage (maybe even 24 gage). It not only jumped the battery, but went back into the bug to serve again as speaker wire, after trimming the ends where the insulation had melted. Wall to wall and a room full of sound is the only way that I can describe the OTA (all of the IC's as well as the OTA speaker cable are of a micro wire design as the digital IC is the Mapleshade Double Helix). |
Redkiwi- they're about 24 gauge with a thin shield; very stiff and springy. You should visit the site http://mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/index.html
Yes, cymbals just shimmer like mad. I played the Chieftains 'Tears of Stone', cut two Bonnie Raitt; thats not crossover chestiness, she had a cold that day, it's so obvious. Miles Davis use of the mute, amazing. The orchestral color I noted above. I could go on.
I'm just a little confused about what's the better tweak: the cables or the adjustable height chair!
One thing intrigues me about the OTA you haven't mentioned, the soft plastic RCA plugs. |
Very interesting Kitch. I don't know anything about the Mapleshade cables so would be interested in a description. With the OTA the most significant "sound" improvement is with cymbals - no spit or smearing - every little detail seems so like the real thing it is amazing. My speaker cables to my woofers are percolating away on my older daughter's system - she gives them a decent work-out, but her room is sufficiently distant for me to be able to run a burn-in disc while she is at school, so I reckon they will be ready to re-audition soon. But in general I love the way the OTAs do not smear or emphasize anything and the music comes alive in a very natural way. |
As I was writing here about an hour ago, I'm noticing that something is different about what's playing. So after I finished the post above I slid my listening chair over behind the sofa and, bang, the soundstage is live. I think, hmm, my chair is higher than the sofa I usually listen on.
I always wondered what the trade-off was between the sloped baffle for time alignment and the speaker firing up at an angle. Well, with my ears at 50"!, everything came together. No sound is coming directly from the speakers and the soundstage is wall to wall. The purity of voices and instruments has to be heard.
Did I spend a lot of money in vain? I put back the DH Labs T-14 and the image lessened and the magic diminished. It's still a pretty good buy, though.
So here it is. For now, this is the best music I've ever had at home. $300 for the speaker cables and less than $5000 in the system. I hope the OTA gives as much pleasure. |
Kitch: I am glad to hear that they are working well in your system. Would you say that they have an unusual sound (like "way" more musical than other cables that you have used in the past)? Yes, I am fishing as I will write about the OTA kit at the end of this week. Funny, I don't really know who Patricia Barber is, but have been listening to "Modern Cool" which I picked up at a thrift last week, quite a bit, along with some Tomita (my Pink Floyd of the 70's). |
RedKiwi and Dekay-As you know, I've been breaking in the Mapleshade Double Golden Helix as you have with the OTA. Now, at about 100 hours, I can report that the soundstage has settled in to where I have stopped moving the speakers around every 5 minutes. There's a nice arc in front of them which curves back to the sides and is very deep. High frequency transients like brushes on cymbals are still too close to the speakers and there is a little of the shift left or right as sounds go up or down the scale. This was more pronounced with the DH Labs T-14 as well as the Coincident. I'll look elsewhere in the system (Cambridge D500SE, passive volume control, Music Reference RM-10, Meadowlark Kestrels)to solve this.
My biggest fear about these tiny gauge cables is groundless, bass is just excellent. I have the new 50 greatest Philips Symphonie Fantastique on right now and the double bass, tympani and low brass rattles the teacups. Last night, I kept playing Patricia Barber's Cafe Blue over and over because of the incredible double bass under a couple of the cuts. I even listened to her singing Ode To Billy Joe, one I usually skip (I hate that song!) because her deep, husky contralto was just mesmerising.
The mid-range and treble that won me over when I acquired the RM-10, Silver Lace and passive volume is augmented, in spades. Although brushes on cymbals, as noted above are problematic from an imaging standpoint, the sound is very alive with sharp attacks and lingering decays. Snares on or off is easy to pick out, now. And voices, oh my.
There goes track 4: marche au supplice; the tympani is way back in the hall and the English Horn nice and woody. You've gotta hear those trombone pedal tones. Blaaaatttt.
......Sorry, Sir Colin was complaining about the fan noise from the Hewlett-Packard. Just finished hearing the tutti and I have chills. Get this recording.
So now I've tried a few tweaks. I had vibrapods under the CDP directly on the 1 1/2" maple shelf. Maybe it was better, it didn't hurt. But I've always noticed that the RM-10 had a buzzy vibration you could feel when playing. Took the pods away from the CDP and put them under the amp; a definite step up in tonal clarity, I think. But, the main thing is I clearly heard the difference. Same thing with power cables. I was happy to help adopt an orphan but didn't hear much, if any difference, with the Asylum cables. Well, when I put the stock cord back on the amp, the soundstage worsened and everything was too bright.
You have to know how delighted I am to be hearing these things especially as today is birthday number 54 and these ears heard Hendrix live, big city traffic and even 80 mm. mortars.
I guess Pierre Frey is on to something. These cables will be around for awhile. |
OK Ken (as Mr Webb said), but I will have another go when the speaker cables have had more hours, because the bass performance was definitely still moving around. |
Not so fast, Red.
So far after 8 months of using the 47 Labs/OTA cable, EVERY time I got to thinking that there might be a weakness or anomoly that was cable induced, it turned out to be pinpointed to problems, inappropriate tweeks or coloured/flawed components elsewhere in my system.
I'd advise going back over your speaker set up for starters.
In my case, I use Mana Soundbases beneath my Neat Elites and discovered that the spikes were out of "tune"(overtight nuts) and another instance where I had assumed my cartridge setup to be "nutz-on-perfect".Not!(antiskate was a smidge off and VTA was slightly too low).
Ken |
Just digital sources, but otherwise correct Gregm.
From what I can tell, some of the other guys trying this cable (but who are wisely keeping their powder dry) are liking it but not necessarily getting the same results. I find as an interconnect the OTA is vivid, fast punchy, even forward, with room-filling sound, but possibly slightly recessed on top. In particular the bass is stunning - incredibly fast, firm and extended - maybe a bit dry. On the panels of my MLs the sound is wonderfully resolved and vibrant. No other speaker cable I have gets even close to resolving cymbals and sibilance, and having it on the panels cures the sense of reticence on top. But with the OTA on the woofer of my MLs there is good and bad. The bass is fast - drums in particular are very life-like (I suspect because it handles transients so well), but other bass sounds can be a bit uneven. I don't think this is a burn-in issue but it might be. Therefore I am taking the OTA woofer cables off my system and putting it on my daughters' system, and I will just leave it there for a month before retrying it. Right now the results with garden hose on the woofers sounds better - interestingly, in the upper mids and lower treble as well. |
Kiwi, so you presently have OTA everywhere BUT the woofers. The set-up being, tube-to-tube to the Logans / analogue & digital sources?
Pls excuse *my* confusion -- nothing to do with your postings.
Thanks!
Greg |
Kitch29 - I will eat my hat now because I think you are right. I took the OTA speaker cables out and put in my Wireworld Golden Eclipse III cables and something sounded more right about the whole thing. Listening some more I was not happy with the smearing I was now hearing from my panels (I drive Martin Logans with tubes), but the powerful bass of the OTA interconnects was great to hear. The OTA as an IC works very well in my system. The bass may be a wee bit dry, but otherwise is very powerful and tight, and goes way down. Bothered by the reduction in resolution up top I put the OTA back on the panels but left the Wireworld on the bass, and then for another permutation used a double run of the Wireworld on the bass (which improved things in a variety of ways including eliminating the dryness). It is clear to me now that the OTA as a speaker cable between my tube amps and the woofers was strangling things. I will have to listen to this some more, but there is no loss of pacing as I had feared. What is odd is that the panels sound better now than when I had the OTA on the bass. This suggests to me my tube amps were just not liking something about the OTA speaker cable on the bass and its performance in the upper frequencies was being affected.
Boy, does the system boogie now. |
Kitch29, I suspect it would destroy the coherence of the pacing. I am getting very boring on PRAT I know, but happen to believe that many audiophiles get lost in failing to distinguish between the sound and the music, and that this is the reason why so many keep getting dissatisfied with their systems soon after being blown away by the last change they made.
I am also getting boring on reporting changes in the sound, but yesterday and today there was a surprising (to me)change that stripped the unwanted warmth I have referred to before out of the picture altogether, and the bass came up into better balance at low volumes - I have no idea whether this will continue.
To be honest, almost regardless of how these cables end up sounding in a tonal sense, I am going to find it difficult to go back to anything else, because the PRAT is outstanding, and what is keeping me enthused through a sometimes ugly burn-in process. |
