Musical tastes : Patricia Barber , Deep Forest , Sting , Banco de Gaia , Seal , Steely Dan and anything from the FIM label . Recordings I use for testing are Chesky s Ultimate Demonstration Disc , Chesky s Women of Song , Patricia Barbers Modern Cool , Dean Peer s Its All Good , Diana Krall Love Scenes and all Burrmester discs . Most important aspect of sound reproduction to me is transparency , timbral accuracy and soundstaging properties. Turn offs are a bass heavy balance. This unit has been with me for 3 months. It replaced a Bat Vk D5 SE and marantz SA 1 . The sound changed by becoming more focused with a much larger soundstage .The players within a given ensemble seperated dramatically and it was much easier to look into the soundfield and place the space between the instruments. A favorite disc for this test is Deep Forest s "Music Detected". Each track is brilliantly recorded and is a fantastic disc for evaluating spacial characteristics of your speakers and how they react within your system . With the Denon , the sound wrapped around both sides of the room and enveloped me in a faux surround sound enviroment that no other player in my system had done. It was deeper as well as wider than any player I have ever auditioned .The Sacd version of Diana Krall "Love Scenes" is breathtaking in its imaging properties and the Denon was spot on . The acoustical envelope was clearer and more holographic with an extended top octave which added immediacy and air to percussive instruments and cymbols.A good example is Johnny Frigos "I Love Paris ". Stregnths were an obviously huge soundstage and quick midbass percussive attack. The arrangement is fast and taunt and the Denon seemed to place acoustical air around the musicians. It comes alive on the Denon. Lower bass was extended deeper and discs like the DVD-A version of Blue Man Groups " Audio " showcase the stregnths of the Denon by delivering a far superior percussive assault than the Bat , Marantz Sa 1 or the Meridian G 98 . Female vocals became natural and engaging. Rebecca Pidgeon s famous " Spanish Harlem " was so lifelike I felt like it was the first time I had heard the track. Instrumental " character " was better defined as cymbals became more easily deleniated from one another within a given song. Dean Peers " Its All Good" has a wealth of cymbal diversity on it and the decay and individual caracter of the various unique cymbals used are beautifully recreated through Alex Peychevs Denon 3910. I am no relation to nor affiliated to Alex or APl Hi Fi . I have also heard no better player regardless of price.
Hi Grant. Good question > This was my first formal review and assumed many of the initial questions I had to answer , many regarding my system would in fact be inserted into the copy when it posted, thus the dearth of details. My error. The Denon is in my Nearfield Pipedream 21, Cary cad 211 anniversary monobloc Nordost Valhalla setup listed under my " 2 channel " system . The unit was connected both ways . Using the volume control as well as my Conrad Johnson Preamp. The former connection using the direct connection yeilded a very transparent, open window to the recording. {It must be stressed that the unit absolutely needs 100 hours before ANY determination regarding its sonic merits could be assessed. This cannot be stressed enough and anyone who gets one , listens for less and gets rid of it is seriously lacking in understanding of the break in process and its signifigant effect on sonics .This break in is real playing time and not a 24-7 burn - in which i do not advise. The next 100 hours has the most dramatic effect as the top two octaves smooth out and the air and space around instrumental passages expands and takes on an almost "organic " life to it. The unit evolves more slowly from 200-300 yet the change is noticable with a more relaxed presentation and a more liquid midrange that eases you into falling deep within a recording , forgetting about your system and its deficiencies. Alex claims the unit keeps improving for 1000 hours }. I also used my Conrad Johnson preamp and found that not only did the unit not lose transparency but gained a timbral richness that is the trademark of great Conrad Johnson products and I find addicting. I would never had missed it had it not had it and anyone who saves money bypassing the preamp will not feel shortchanged as long as proper break in is done. I like both sounds actually. They are different any yet both are very involving in unique ways.Its like having two machines . Thanks Grant and lets trade thoughts as the units mature.
Brainwater, I'm really glad you mentioned this about the break-in of the unit. My wife and I listened to the APL 3910 last week at Alex's house, and found it to be perfect for us in every way but one. It was not quite as engaging as some players that we have heard, despite the fact that it seemed to handle every aspect of the music with aplomb. I chalked it up to one of several things: the Dynaudio speakers--which I find to be somewhat analytical--the hybrid amp, or possibly the fact that the player was not even 5 hours old. Based upon your comments, it was likely the newness of the player that was the culprit. I'm sorry we did not get to hear one with more hours on it. We will definitely keep your comments in mind as we consider our upgrade options. Thank you again, Howard
Kerry , I was commenting on any player I had owned and thoroughly tested in my systems. . I should have been more clear . My apologies and good point. Here goes : Bat vkd 5 se , Classe cdp 1 , Marantz sa 1 , Cal 2500 , Meridian g 98 . Thanks for helping me clarify a broad sweeping ststement.
I am fortunate to receive my APL 3910 before the dreaded price increase. I love the sound right out of the box with fantastic detail, frequency extension and left-to-right soundstaging. I am at 30 hours and noted some congestion, some high frequency roll-off and the bass became mushy. The sound gravitated toward the midrange and is a little bit brittle to my ears. I am not sure if this is part of the break-in process since most threads indicate atleast 300 hours to fully appreciate the player's sonic virtues.
Can you trace back your break-in experience with the Denon as far as what I am to expect during the subsequent playback hours. Will the soundstage get deeper as well?
BTW, you have a SMOKIN' system for 2-channel and HT as well.
My APL Denon 3910 has well over 200 hours on it, and without question it continues to improve. I have auditioned it in direct connect mode, as well as playing through my modified Conrad Johnson PV-12 tube preamp, and much prefer the direct connect. There may be slightly more "bloom" with the CJ in the loop, but when directly connected to my Spectron amp, the improvement in soundstage, imaging, transparency, ambience and overall musicality is dramatic.
I recently installed the new Spectron Musician III Class D amp (600 wpc)in my system, and all of the above improvements wratched up another notch, plus adding a much more life-like tonality. I will be doing a review of the Spectron digital amp shortly. It is a superb match for direct connecting the APL Denon.
Hi Peepboy2. thanks for the flattering comment on the systems. I have done a small review of the 3910 apl unit so for details on breakin slip over there for a legnthy read. The unit is pretty unstable till 100 hours , 100-200 is dramatic with soundstaging increasing and focus improving . 200-300 is magic and 300-500 is subtle yet noticable changes that go from increased decay to ambient retrieval stregnths. Its all its cracked up to be but dont dismiss one of alex s modded Phillips 1000 units. i have one of those too and its closer to the 3910 than some would lead you to think sonically!! Enjoy the breakin!
Hi Brainwater. I agree with you assessment of the sonic advantages of the Philips SACD 1000. Over the past year I have owned two of them -- the first custom modified by Dan Wright and the second the APL SACD 1000 complete with Alex's new digital board, tubed output stage, etc. While I thought the APL 1000 and APL 3910 were very similar in tonality, detail, base extension and warmth, I found the APL Denon to be in a different class when it comes to soundstage depth and width, deminsionality, air, transparancy and overall musicality. This, plus some of the new improvements Alex is working on for addition to the Denon platform, makes it the clear winner in my opinion.
I just replaced my pc with an Elrod EPS sig 2 and the change was simply stunning. I am in shock. It opened up the soundstage dramatically , tightened focus and improved clarity . Two panes of the window just lifted.
Hi Grant , I have read lots of great things about Michaels cables. Oh yea, i just ordered another 3910 for the threatre with the new upsampling chip . Have you ordered one? If you get a chance to compare the Sig 2 or Statement from David to Michaels pcs give me an e !
Brent, While waiting for my APL 3910 to arrive, I'm trying to come up with a short list of PCs for the APL as a starting point to find an optimal one for my system. In view of your dramatic results with the Elrod EPS sig 2, I'll give it a try. Given your awesome system, the PC which was replaced by the Elrod couldn't be too shabby either. What was it? Any other PCs mate well with the APL in your system? I appreciate your sharing your experience with us. Thank you! John
Hi John . I tried the Virtual Dynamics Nite 1 , the Nordost Valhalla and the Xindak gold as well as a Elrod eps 3 in addititon of course to my present Elrod pcs. I have written of and stand by Xindak as offering real world performance at budget prices . For many systems , the Xindak cables , speaker , innerconnect and to some degree pcs all out perform much of the competetion at a fraction of their cost . As the components in a chain improve then the arteries must as well and that is why i have all but eliminated Xindak from my systems . They served me well however. The Virtual Dynamics is a good pc. I use it on my xover at the mmoment . It delivers a nice coherency in my system without drawing attention to any band of the frequency response . It is less transparent than the sig series of the Elrods however . I tried the nordost valhalla against the sig series as well as the Statement. The sig 2 and 3 offered greater dynamics , a more involving midrange envelope and trailed the top octave somewhat but still held its own . I thought overall , either sig was am improvement im my Pipedrteam system . The Statement simply outperformed the valhalla in every category for me. I have tried other pcs im my system but at different times so a fair comparison is not possible. I have been told by a very well respect AG member that PCs should not make an improvement on products that are properly designed in the first place. My answer is that from what i can tell , its obvious that they improve MY system and at every junction so I can only assume design flaws routinely exist in audio. I have two revealing systems that i test components out on. The Pipedream system you are asking me about and the Aerial 20 t Bat , meridian system . The Pipedream is the system I perform the majority of my experimentation on as it is the most revealing of the two. Microchanges in the system are at times obvious whereas the Aerial system is a constant source of pleasure but not ruthlessly revealing . Changing ics for example does not radically alter the soundifeld . Its a wonderful theatre however but for critical listenming the Nearfield Pipedream 21 system properly set up with a competent chain behind it is awe inspiring. Thanks for your kind comments John ! Brent
Thank you for your response with the many descriptive characteristics of the various PCs that you have tried, as well as their relative merits in your system. This is very helpful!
My quest for a PC for the APL 3910 was inspired by an experience while auditioning the APL unit at an Audiogon member's home. When he changed to the Virtual Dynamics Nite 2 power cord (from Electraglide Ultra Khan revised), the improvement was pleasantly dramatic: 1) The levels of detail and coherence increased without sounding analytical. 2) The highs and lows had greater extension. 3) It was smoother and more refined without smearing the microdynamics and harmonic bloom. The sound stage was wider and deeper (way deeper). 5) It captured more of the vibrancy of music. 6) The bottom line: There was a significant increase in involvement and enjoyment of the music.
I understand Virtual Dynamics has a PC in their more elite Master Series. I have not run into anyone who has heard it. It would be interesting to compare the Elrod Statement with the VD Master.
At this stage, I would put the VD Night 2, the Elrod EPS sigs and the Xindak at the top of my short list. That is where I will start (and dream about the Statement and the Master). Other PCs that were recommended to me on my thread ("Mating power cords with APL 3910") include Wolf Carbon Source, Foundation Research, Mini Khan Plus, and the VH Aire Sine. I would like to get more feedback on these to determine the ones I should audition.
Once my APL arrives and I settle on a PC for it, I will immediately try to upgrade the power line conditioning and the power cords on my amps (Jadis JA80 monoblock tube amps driving the Wilson Audio Watt/Puppies and the Krell amp driving Wilson's WHOW). Next, the interconnects and the speaker cables. So, I have a long journey ahead. I appreciate very much your help to get me going on my upgrades.
Hey John , I need to try the nite 2 if you say its that good. Thanks. I also have a few Electraglide epihpany pcs coming and will move them around and let you know what i fine. As far as line conditioners , the best i have found is Jim Weils Sound Applications . His Reference line Stage is jaw dropping.
I would absolutely try the Elrod Sig 2 on the 3910, which is what I currently have. If you like it, the Statement is even "more of a good thing". In my system, I have a Statement coming from the wall, several Sig 3's, a Sig 2 and an Epiphany (preamp)and couldn't be happier with the performance, after trying what seems like 100 other cords. I've had very similar experiences as Brainwater every time I replace another "high-end" cord (no names - I don't want to offend anyone) with an Elrod Sig or Statement in my system.
Just in case some participants to this thread have not discovered it yet, APL has very recently started its own dedicated discussion forum facility at: http://www.aplhifi.com/phpBB/
Thank you for your suggestions and observations. Based on your and Brainwater's strong endorsements, I have added Elrod Sig 2 to my short list. The Statement is a bit pricey for me, even on a used market. The Shunyata and Virtual Dynamics cords round out the top of my short list. I'm also tempted to try Xindak and a few other good values recommended to me in this thread in my secondary system after I get a new CD player for it.
Thanks Brainwater. What did you compare it to before you purchased? I've been looking at Thor.
Raytheprinter: If you ever get to hear the APL modded Denon 3910, not only will you want one, you'll be wondering how you ever got along WITHOUT one this long!
the unit i spoke with Alex about is a SS model as i will not be able to make the leap in price for the tubed 3910,Alex assured me i would have a time finding anything under 10M that would better it,,,im hoping it will put the finishing touches on my allready great sounding system,very good review Brainwater,thanks
Thanks Ray , it was a straight forwared think piece from the heart without being too technical . It was written at a single sitting straight through. There are many things I would have said i didnt and many things i simply forgot in the passion of typing. Thanks though... Fplanner , I heard so many things at CES I wanted to bring home and audition but you know how this hobby works . Its all too difficult borrowing high end gear to try before you buy. My answer to your question is that i did not try a vast assortment of preamps in my system to evaluate before making the jump to the act 2 . My enthusiasm was based on my reaction to the CJ ls 17 2 . At that time I was doing some listening to a few preamps , specifically the Classe Omega , Cary spl 98 , Aesthetix Calypso , and a ARC Ref one . I felt the 17 2 was the very near equal to the best of the lot which was the Aesthetix . I was simply sure the Act 2 would be superior and dove for it. I could not be happier . Its really something special and anyone in the market for a final preamp is foolish not to at least try to hear one. It is that good.
Brainwater- Thanks for the response. The problem I'm having is that there are no dealers in Colorado except a small startup, so I can't even hear any CJ THERE, let alone in my system. C-J wasn't much help at all, so I'm pretty frustrated. I'm narrowed down to Thor (in my system next week, maybe) VAC Renaissance Mk2(ditto), BAT 31se and 51se (local dealer) and Aesthetix (local dealer).
I have heard lots of really good things about the ACT2, but there is no way I'm going to do business with a company that can't even find me a dealer to present their products. There are too many other brands out there and this is too expensive a price range to be taking these kind of chances. I may just wait until the RockyMtn AudioFest here at the end of September, unless I hear something in the meantime that just steals my ears.
Fplanner , you may want to put a foot in the water by doing what I did ... Get a 17ls2 on Audiogon and give it a try. Pay about 3500.00 or so. If it is your dream piece , add 40 % sonic improvement and buy a new Act 2. You will get the signature of the act 2 by listening to the 17ls 2 as they share some of the same features , especially the teflon capacitors which give this piece a truly remarkable sonic palate. If you dont flip , sell it , you can get your money out of it , it holds its value wewll... as it should. This new gear from CJ is different from anything I have tried and is my present end of the sonic road. Its been a long - assed journey but i have found my piece of the rock! I doubt you will not agree.
Update: For grins, put an Electraglide Epiphany on the 3910. I was amazed - the soundstage (especially width) opened up as did the highs. Detail has increased considerably - I am now hearing things I missed with the Elrod Sig2 - another veil has come off. A very noticeable change for the better!
Brainwater: Decided on VAC, after demoing a Standard Ltd Edition. Sounds REALLY good in my system - next upgrade is probably to Renaissance MK2, which Kevin Hayes has volunteered to "tweak" for me. Please let me know if you hear of someone parting with one. Thanks.
Thank you for the wealth of information found here, I've been looking to try an elrod statement powercord on my YBA passion amp for a while, but have also considered some of the offerings from shunyata (anaconda alpha or vx), electraglide (epiphany or the x version) and revelation audio labs (in particular the Precept which I like a lot) ... any suggestions from prior experiences? Purist may also be considered.
I own an audio aero capitole MKII SE player which may or may not compare to the APL 3910 discussed here (depending on the system I think). Power is fed by a shunyata anaconda vx ... anyone tried this pc for the APL 3910 yet? I am very pleased with the sound coming from mine. Incidentaly I know someone using a Transparent Audio Powerlink MM on his APL 3910 with more bass than the shunyata vx (otherwise very similar according to him) ... which seems strange to say as I feel that mine has plenty of it.
Also, did anyone try the symposium rollerblocks under the APL 3910? Just curious as to the effects on this player.
Update: New AKM DACs in the APL 3910 - sound got even better, now playing thru a VAC Phi 2.0 preamp(Got a deal I couldn't resist). Now experimenting with Virtual Dynamics Revelation series cables as well as Siltech 110s - pretty impressive so far... Also, put Stillpoints under the 3910 with good results.
I tried the Elrod Statement II on the APL 3910 (now with the superior AKM DACs) with great success. Adding the Statement to the rest of the system brought about a cummulative improvement. Soundstage, cleanliness, and refinement are now awesome in my all Statement system. The Statement is synergistic with the Sound Application Reference Line Stage AC line conditioner.
I also tried the standard Symposium Rollerblock 2+ (with Grade 10 bearings) as well as the upgrade 2+/G3 (with Grade 3 bearings) under the APL. I settled on the 2+/G3 in the upside-down position (base against the chassis bottom and bearing on platform). The Grade 3 bearing adds a nice element of refinement: silkier highs and improved cleanliness and micro-transients. The platform is the Symposium Ultra. In my system and to my ears, the Ultra is superior to the Bright Star Big Rock, Gingko Cloud 11 and the Aurios PRO under the APL: cleaner, more transparent, better bass (definition and extension)and truer harmonic texture. On my upgrade path, I keep learning the importance of synergy.
I agree with you John, system synergy is key but I do find personal listening preference plays just as big a role ... needless to say that it varies tremendously in the audio world.
As regards the symposiums I use throughout the entire system with consistent results everywhere. Double stacked configuration under my AA player (w/ gr.3 balls) and under my YBA passion amp (w/ gr.10 balls)... in single stacked configuration under the whest audio dap.10 with similar results as described above by you .... they are simply the best isolation device I've come across. I do however find that an islation base underneath the rollerblocks further improves their overall performance ... especially in the bottom end.
What powercables did you use in your system prior to the elrod statements? The only obstacle in my system would be their unidirectional flexibility, which is a real problem in a narrow space between cabinet and wall, especially when you need to further bend them at the ends to reach the YBA and Hydra plugs. I use the Hydra 4 powerconditioner in my system (with additional isolation here too) with shunyata anaconda vx, a taipan alpha and a precept (from revelation audio labs). I'm looking at upgrading from the taipan as we speak but don't have any elrod dealers nearby and fear that the statement may not be able to fit in my system due to its limited flexibility ... and am tempted to go for another anaconda on the amp due to the synergy you mention above with conditioners. What I like most about the anaconda's is their transparency ... it gives me an opportunity to use interconnects and speaker cables to fine tune the overall sound of the system. The anacondas offer refinement in the highs without constriction or roll-off, have a nice organic character, are not bass shy in my system, offer wide soundstage, are very quiet and clean as well, with speed (but not quite as fast as the electraglides) ... similar to most cables in this price range ... but the elrod statement has been highly recommended to me, especially for the amp and I would love to hear one but at the moment it's not a possibility. From what I'm told, the elrod adds more weight/body to the overall presentation compared to the anaconda alpha. Any thoughts/suggestions on this topic? By comparison, the Precept is also very good. It offers excellent speed and dynamics with truly visceral bass (but that's not what I like) and is very open in the highs ... overall an excellent contender who ended up on the DAP.
Sound Applications is not new to me, and I think along with Shunyata and Transparent Audio, they are probably among the top 10 best conditioners around for sound and I think each one offers its own synergy with a particular set of powercables. For video I hear the Gray's are the best.
Thanks for your thoughts, will defintely try to audittion an elrod if I can find a dealer.
Amperidian , FWIW , I did an extensive a- b eveluation with the Shunyata Hydra 8 and 3 different Sound Applications products. The 8 was about equal to the CFX and model 12 but the Reference line Stage was far superior in virtually every category of performance. The designer Jim Weil has just released his new Video Reference Line Stage and word is that its as good as the Reference Line stage for sound and is vastly superior to anything commercially available in the video dept. I have one on order and will do a full review a month or so after getting mine installed. On pcs , i agree with John that the Statement Elrods are fantastic and in my system had no peers . They bend a little more than you might think or have heard. They are worth trying to work with... imo.
Amperidian, The Elrod Statement adds weight, body, bass definition and extention, refinement, dynamics, and a huge soundstage. If you can't find a dealer near you, you can give David Elrod a call.
Prior to the Statements, I used some cords made for me by Jim Aud of Purist Audio Design about 10 years ago. They did not have a name. I tried Virtual Dynamics Night II and Master Series. But in my system and to my ears/tastes, I strongly prefered the Statements.
I am having positive results with Symposium Rollerblocks and platforms under my speakers, amps and CD player. I'm thinking of getting additional Symposium devices for AC conditioners and crossover. What devices did you have good results with for these component?
Did you compare the double stacked 2+/G3 to an upside-down single stack 2+/G3 under your CD player? If so, what were the sonic differences?
Brainwater and Puremusic, thank you for the input ... very much appreciated. I will consider the Elrod Statement for the amp, I may be able to just pick up a used one here on a'gon and turn it around if it does not fit in my current setup ... I have heard that the elrod pc is the best out there for amps and a friend has strongly recommended it but he lives too far for me to audition it, but you guys are really twisting my arm here ... man oh man, my wife is going to kill me ... :)
As regards the symposiums, I have not tried the inverted setup mentioned above because I don't use the ultra/quantum platforms beneath the rollerblocks, but instead I use an older HRS M2 which is made of a special polymer (with a coriander base underneath) that is not as hard as the surface in the symposium shelves (and so I would lose or severely limit the rolling effect of the rollerball). I initially tried them in single stacked config. and found marginal improvement double stacking them (however I felt it was worth it in my system despite the cost/performance ratio, as were the grade 3 balls). My impression is that the grade 3 ball has a better surface to roll on if used in double stacked config. due to both contact surfaces being polished (I don't think the ultra/quantum shelves offer this yet but you should try to email symposium, they would be able to give you the best advice) ... I found the recommended lubricant does not work in my system (so take that with a grain of salt).
Amperidian, "...man oh man my wife is going to kill me..." You could make Brainwater and me as your beneficiaries on your life insurance policy. We'll put the money to good use in our audio systems.
On the bottom of the Rollerblock box (under the foam) you should find 3 small stainless steel plates that you can use to give you a hard surface if you want to try the 2+/G3 upside-down.
just tried them upside down with the steel plates ... sounds hollow compared to the double stacked config. and I had a hard time centering them under the rollerblocks when upside down ... back to double stacked configuration now ... whew, I can relax again ... overall a worthy experiment though.
Just ordered a Statement ... if I don't post anymore on a'gon ... Puremusic and Brainwater my system will ship to you for final tweaks just so all my work is not wasted ... :)
Amperidian, I took note of your observation on the comparison between the upside-down and the double-stacked Rollerblocks. I have another set of Rollerblocks, so I tried a double-stacked 2+/G3. In my system, the double-stacked version has greater high-end extension, cleaner and more transparent harmonic texture, and more body. Thanks, your good deed will not go unnoticed by the Muses. Should your wife disapprove of your Statement purchase in an unfortunate way, your good audio deeds will insure that you will ascend directly into Musical Nirvana.
Can this cd player be mated well to an integrated amp or would I be losing more than the upgrade from my YBA Lecteur CD 3 is worth? I am using a Primare I30 and would like to take it to the next level on the front end of the system. My initial thoughts were to go to the Ayre c5xeMP but I am hearing a lot of hype around the APL but that is mostly with the direct connection to an amp which would not be my case. What do you guys think? thanks in advance
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