Walkman, yes it is good that I haven't seen the indicator light in awhile. I am leary to crank the volume while using the Sony DVD to see if I can make it reoccur though, hence keeping it under '31'. |
So, Jh2os, what do you think of the Hawks so far? Since our set-up's will be identical, I am most curious to hear your impressions. [My room is 27x14, but the listening area is really only 14x14.]
thx, walkman |
Jh2os and Walkman, the answer is not what you are looking for but what about moving out of your chair and turning it on/off (in the case of someone using same amp for 2ch or HT) or plug/unplug (in case you own a 2ch amp and a receiver)- depending on the application?!!! seriously, there may be ways to have it set up differently but my solution will work 100% of the time!!!!!
Or, like me, you own a Linar 10 5.1ch integrated and the sub is on all the time but the remote allows me to control its volume, 0 for audio, equal (if I want) to front for HT. |
Walkman, I am pretty impressed with them thus far. I haven't been a huge fan of the Hawk when hearing them in several different setups, but I am thinking the synergy of amplification pairing may have been partially to blame? I always preferred the Forest to them when auditioning at the dealer.
They should reach their 150 hour mark on Saturday morning, so I plan to spend some time listening between the Sttafs and Hawks then. Initially, they definitely have more presence and I can tell they are more detailed as well. I wouldn't classify them as a 'warm' speaker as has been mentioned above. I feel that both the Sttaf and Forest have more 'warm' qualities to them? I am definitely coming around on the Hawks though. I've only listened at moderate levels and don't even have the claws installed on them, nor played around with placement, so these are very initial thoughts. |
Beheme, can I hook a sub up direct to the DVD player via the 5.1 channel outs? I noticed a subwoofer out here - then the sub would only be used while using the Sony as the source?
I experimented with turning the speakers to 'small' and it just sounded like crap with out the lower octaves there.
Lastly, if I can use the subwoofer out on the DVD player, should I switch the analog L/R out to the L/R out in the 5.1 output section? |
Jh2os: my former response was posted before your last two. Connecting to the DVD will not give you volume control of the sub so this will likely not work. A sub out , unlike a tape loop, has variable volume that goes with the L/R output volume.
Turning speaker to small requires a sub to take on the bass that has been cut off the satellites so this is not to be done without a sub properly in place. |
Thanks Jh2os...your initial thoughts are appreciated, and encouraging. Identical systems make your comments very valuable. And, I can imagine things will only get better with your break-in and subsequent addition of the claws.
Beheme: thanks for the sub tips. I'll likely go sub-less, but was curious. |
I think I'll remain sub-less as well. I like to keep my system as simple and uncluttered as possible! |
Sub-less is more often than not the way to go for 2ch audio when one owns speakers of that quality. As I like to say, better restricted yet outstanding low end than muddy lower bass. In my book, there is nothing worse than a low end out of control or not well integrated. For HT, it is always interesting to have the extra 20-35 Hz bandwidth to watch Terminator!
My Avalon Studio Pro are "limited" to 34 Hz but trust me, it seems that they go much lower and bass is so tight and defined than I do not know how much I would have to spend to get the extra 15Hz missing below that of same quality.
A question for you Jh2os: have you listened to the Mani-2? I never did but their specs in the lower register make me wonder if they are not the real gem in the Totem line. |
I listened to them a long time ago, when I originally got the Tabu. They were impressive, but at the time, the Tabu just had some 'magic' that drew me into the presentation more - I think it was part of it's unique capacitor-less design? I am not a bass freak, so giving up the last couple of octaves for a presentation that pulled me into the music more was an obvious choice! I have grown to prefer floorstanding speakers, mostly due to the aesthetics, so I never reconsidered them or gave them another serious listen. |
Jh2os,
Did you get a chance to listen to Hawk and Staffs > Would highly appreciate your feedback
Grakesh |
OK, I had a chance to give a little listen between the two this weekend. In my system and space, the Hawk brings a lot to the table - more presence, fuller sound, more precise imaging and tonal accuracy. In movies the dialouge was more audible and the soundstage was better fleshed out. There is a tinge of data retrieval that the Hawks seem to have that is borderline 'etchy'? I don't know how to describe it, but there seems to be this constantly in-the-background, kind of almost ready to appear sibilance, but it never does happen - it's like you think it's coming, but it never gets there? I don't know how to put words to it, just something I picked up. Odd, I know. ;)
During the test, listening to the Sttafs next to the Hawks they just couldn't keep up. Both in audiophile ways and simply in filling the room with sound. At lower volumes they sound superb, but as the volume increases this is where the Hawk clearly pulls ahead. In a smaller space at lower volumes I would be a much harder decision, possibly leaner in favor of the Sttaf for me? I know I listed above all the ways the Hawk is superior in 'audiophile' ways, but at low volumes the Sttaf is just damn fun to listen to! I think leaving all the audiophile stuff aside, I simply enjoy it's presentation more.
Anyway, the Hawk is clearly a winner but at the same time I am wondering if this is the system for me? It still doesn't draw me in like my cairn/primaluna/arro system used to, but that was in a 9x11 room. I am now in a 3500 cubic foot room and need more volume to fill the space. I think the Hawks in my room could still use more power than the i5 has to offer?
Just when I was thinking I was nearing the end of the road, I find myself reconsidering my whole system again. I am just longing for the system to put a smile on my face the way the previous music system did - where I can sit back and enjoy and not worry about a thing! Maybe I am just burnt out on listening too critically too much recently? Maybe still frustrated that neither of these are the Forest sound, but that is no longer an option for me? I don't know?
I'm sure this post wasn't of much help, just telling you where I'm at.... |
Hey Jh2os. Thanks for the detailed summary. It seems you are not quite "content" though. Audiosa-nervosa perhaps? Just kidding. Anyway, perhaps a little more time will help, but maybe not. You seem to have a reference point for the kind of system that once brought you that audio contentment, and you are trying replicate it, but your room size changed, so the components have changed, and it's hard to get what you had before. In this weird hobby, you may have to keep on trying to achieve that level of audio contentment...or you may grow to really like what you currently have, but are not quite used to (?).
I guess I ask you to think of the volumes you listened to your previous cairn/prima luna/arro system and see how the same volume sounds with your Sim/Sim/Hawks system. You seem to be focused on the filling the room with volume aspect, but also mentioned how you prefer the Sttafs at low volumes. Maybe applying the 80-20 rule (probably blasphemous in this hobby) will help you determine if your current set-up will meet your needs (i.e. if you listen at low volumes, can you get used to the Hawks?...Do the Hawks fill your big room with sound at high volumes?). Also, what about the I-5/Hawks combo leads you to wonder if you have enough power?
Anyway, enough of my analysis...Hopefully, you grow to enjoy your system, but if not, well, I guess that's why this place exists. Rectifyable (but sometimes that gets tiresome...). Keep us posted as you continue to listen (and maybe don't listen so critically?).
;-) walk |
Walkman, you raise a lot of good points. I think either the Hawk or Sttaf paired with the Simaudio in a slightly smaller room woudl sound great. The Sttafs sound great at lower volumes, but to have that 'draw you into the music' that the Arro based system had, the system (in this larger space) simply needs more presence.
I think the Hawks may need a little more power to sound 'fuller' but at the same time maybe what i'll find is that I simply need a more room-filling speaker?
I don't know, I am just at a point of frustration at this point. I was happier with less $$$ wrapped up in gear a few months back and now I am here - more $$$ wrapped up but not neccesarily satisfied. Don't get me wrong, it sounds good but it just doesn't make me grin form ear-to-ear the way the Arro based system did. I did have the Arro based system in this large room breifly and it didn't perform the way it did in the smaller space. That is what prompted the initial upgrade. That and consolidating my HT and 2-channel systems into one 2-channel HT. I don't miss the 5.1 channel HT, but right now I am missing some magic?
I am hoping to get off this merry-go-round and just enjoy the music! ;) |
Jh, I know you say you don't want to go with a subwoofer, but if you put a Rel Storm III (or equivalent) with either the Hawk or the Staff and doubt you'll be concerned with fullness. That issue will go away, and your soundstage will double in size.
. . . just a thought. |
Jh20s,
Thanks for posting your audition observations. I appreciate it. I happened to see this statement in your posting "Maybe still frustrated that neither of these are the Forest sound,"...Do you mean staff and Hawks could not sound as good as Forest did ?
Grakesh |
Jh2os. I cannot blame you for having a "grin from ear to ear" standard. You achieved that level of sonic bliss once, and you have the darn gone right to achieve it again. I guess the rub is what kinda combo of gear is gonnna get you there. I dunno. From a selfish perspective, your lack of true sonic bliss is of interest to me since I have Hawks coming and have the same source and amp and even a similarly sized room (but my immediate listening area is smaller; typical apartment set-up). But then again, you are comparing your new set-up to something very different from what I have (small room, arro + primaluna + cairn).
I think something's gonna have to give: You will either have to give it more time, compromise your standard for being sonically content, or as many do, sell and buy something different. Only you can determine what you need to get back that thar grin, and I hope you do. Perhaps the subwoofer suggestion made above by the other posters would be one option (but I know you said you don't want to do that; nor I). Perhaps the other option is try the Forest again (very ironic given the title of this thread), but I can surely understand your hesitancy there cos you replaced it 3x. For me, if I were fed up with a particular product, I'd surely steer clear of the entire line (the "brand"), and you have not, so if you are comfy with the Sttafs and Hawks, it seems that you should also be comfy trying out yet another pair of Forests...
But maybe there's another speaker that you need? Something more sensitive and easier to drive for your big room so you can get that big sound? Maybe some of the smaller names that are frequently mentioned here like Tyler or Reimer? Food for thought.
I wish I could give you the silver bullet... |
To me, when the Forests were working well, they would still be my personal speaker of choice of the 3. Just my personal opinion though. |
Jh20s,
I am not sure whether you auditioned Sonus Faber line. I liked totem's sound so much. But my opinio changed when I auditioned Sonus Faber GP Domus and Cremona Auditor. I like both of them a lot too. That is what I am in a stalemate and trying to decide between Totem Forests, Hawks and SF Cremona Auditors and Grand Piano Domus. May be you can audition SF line and see
Grakesh |
Sonus Faber Domus Piano and further up the line is VERY nice speakers. I demo'd them against VS VR4-JR, Dali 400, Spendor S8e, Vandersteen 3a sigs, ELAC, Legacy |
The Sonus Faber Grand Piano Home were a contender for me back in the day. I did enjoy their sound. I also listened to the Dali MS5's recently which were brilliant, but in a whole other price class. Quite possibly, I simply may need to start back at square one? Walkman might be right about something more sensitive and easier to drive???
I went over to Tweeter (i know) the other night, because they had the Sonus before. They stopped carrying them, but they did have the JMLab Profile there paired with a Krell SACD standard and kav400xi. I was surprised to see gear of that caliber in a Tweeter? They also had ML's (but those have never been my flavor). I listened breifly to the Krell/Profile system and it sounded pretty sweet. Hard to get a good demo in a Tweeter though, with all those bigscreens mumbling in the background. Plus, I knew more about the pieces than the salesman did. Go figure! ;) |
So, Jh2os, whaddya gonna do now? You sold your Sim stuff...the playing field is wide open. Good luck!
- walkman |
Thanks walkman! Not sure exactly what I am going to do (a lot of different options running through my head), but I'll figure it out, and hopefully quickly. ;) |
Jh2os: I feel and share your pain man, sincerely!!!!! I will take a shot at your problem, may be right, may be wrong. As I have owned Cairn Fog, Arros and tested Prima Luna 1 for a week end, here is what I think: is it possible that you are missing the combination of an extra clean source passing information to a tube amp providing immediacy and midrange transparency to a neutral holographic speaker like few others?
May I suggest you pose for a second and reevaluate your choices and options? Ever since I sold Arros because of the popping woofer issue, I have been happy but never 100% content until I listened to Avalon speakers. Partnered with a tube amp with balls, they made me forget about Arros. $ for $, I would try (I know, there is no such thing as money back on used gear!):
- VTL IT85 tube magic yet no mellow.
- Avalon Symbol FL as you are a FL kind of guy. If they resolve like my Studio Pro and disappear even only 70% as good as the SP, you are in business! same feeling as before just better, deeper larger image and probably better resolution. 85w is more than enough to drive Symbols and you would be back to tube/holographic speakers. I have lost track of your source but stay away from the darker sources like Simaudio Equinox or the tube output ones, I find them boring after a while. Fianlly, if you want to add a HT component, there are different options with Avalon for center (symbol or LCR monitor).
A tube - Arros lover ought to stay tube-holographic system!!!!!
My 2 cents. |
Beheme, thanks for your comments - I think you are right on. I will research those peices you mentioned above, as I am not familiar with them. I am open to options at this point. I think you are right though, finding a clear source and tube amplification may be my signature sonic bliss. I brought a Jolida CDP into the Prima/Arro system against the Cairn and I preferred the cairn - the Jolida just lost too much detail and the whole thing started to get 'mushy' around the edges. I know Cairn has the MOOV2 coming out (if not out already?) that is an all in one player. Adding DVD to the mix is a tough one and if I could find it all in one box with excellent CD playback that would be an added plus - I know I am asking for a lot there! ;) I'd like to give the Krell Showcase DVD a listen. Should be clean and detailed? And all-in-one. Don't know how it would compare to the SACD that I seemed to like though? Thanks again for the recommendations! |
So whats the plan now? I see you sold you're I-5. Are you atleast considering going back to Arro's? |
Baroque, the Arros are too small for my current space. Listening briefly to those in the large space made me realize that I had to move up the line. I guess I may be able to go with Arros with subs, but I think I would go another route before adding subs?
Currently, I still have the Hawks - not sure if I will trade those in to my dealer for electronics or attempt to build a system around them?
Options running through my head:
Build a system around the Hawks that will be easy and convienent for both music and HT - preferrably with an all-in-one source, options:
krell showcase dvd
krell kav400xi
NAD master series m55 universal player
NAD master series m3 integrated
plenty of power with both, ease and conveinence of SS. SS control for HT.
'Beheme' plan - SS source, tube integrated:
DVD??? (H/K, Cambridge, Denon)
Cairn Fog CDP
Rogue Tempest Integrated
Cary Audio DVD6
Rogue Tempest
(or)
BAT vk55i (powered direct by dvd6) - not sure how well that will work?
Those are just a few options I am thinking about with gear I have heard. Other potential (non Totem) speaker options would be Sonus, Dali, Focal Profile.
Plus there have been some suggestions above of gear I may want to listen to. It looks pretty wide open. I would love to have a 'simple' system. Same manufacturer source and amp so one remote appeals to me. I know not most important factor, but a 'nice to have'. I have been calling around to try to listen to some of this gear again and hear new things like the Avalon mentioned above. |
imo, you are worried about something that you shouldn't. if you have the right electronics with any of the totem speakers you have been auditionng, you don't need to worry about blowing woofers. if you team up a smaller amp to drive these totem speakers to high spl's, yeh, you will blow them. totem speakers, at least the ones i have owned or presently own (model 1, arro, in-wall, mani 2's) need a powerful amp to drive them. for example, i had a pair of large monoblocks driving the model 1's and they would play as loud as i wanted. my mani's need hundreds of watts to sound full and clean. home theater magazine did a test using the arros with the dreamcatcher speakers and they liked what they heard. i hooked up my arros in my ht setup using 2 subs and i could crank them as loud as i wanted in a 16X24x10 room. i am surprised that you would think about the arros after using the hawks or forests. the arros are very nice and are excellent for a small speaker in a smaller room (used mine in a den). but going up the food chain, you do get higher quality sound, or i should say a speaker that produces more of the freq range. imo, the food chain for audio stops at the mani's whereas the winds would be a good choice for a ht setup. i debated for a long time on upgrading my model 1's to the hawks or forest. these 2 speakers are more full range but not as clean sounding as the model 1's in an audio only settting (imo). when i heard the mani's, there was no hesitation, clean and full range.
bottomline, no matter what speakers you end up with, you need to get the right equipment to drive them. if you get totem, don't go cheap on the amp.
good luck |
RBstehno, what amps are you using to drive your respective Totems right now? |
in my audio room using the mani's, i currently own the dk design mkII amp. i used to own the classe 47.5 preamp with odyssey monoblocks. right now, i am playing around with a classe 47.5 preamp with a classe ca-201 amp that is loaned to me while my friend is on vacation. for now, i will be keeping the dk unit in my audio room. in my den, i sold the arros to a friend and went with totem inwalls. i am switching between/playing around with my onkyo tx-sv909pro receiver and a jolida integrated tube amp with the inwalls. jolida is smoother and more musical but low on power whereas the onkyo is more solid state sounding and has power.
when i had my model 1's before moving up to the mani's, I used the classe/odyssey setup above for a while. before that, i owned a macintosh ma-6500 integrated, and the classe preamp with a macintosh mc-202 amp. both the 6500 and mc-202 amps did not have the necessary power to drive the model 1's compared to a macintosh mc-352 that i borrowed from my local dealer. i did have the luxury of playing with the mc-352 amp/classe preamp combo with the mani's and i liked it very much. a year ago, i wanted to play with tube gear because i have always like the sound of tubes. but i needed an amp with a lot of power for the mani's and i didn't want to spend $$$$$.$$ for a big tube amp, so i tried the dk unit and liked it. in the future, i will be trying a combination of a tube preamp (cary, mac, prima luna, ????) with the macintosh mc-352 or the newer macintosh mc-402 or possibly the ma-6900 integrated with the mani's.
also, for a while, i purchased a 2nd pair of mani's for my front channels in my ht setup. i was using my yamaha rx-v1 receiver to power them. not a good match. sounded flat, lifeless, and dull. yamaha claims 140 watts per side but the mani's sucked all of the power out of the amp and i ended up selling the 2nd pair of mani's. good luck |
Thanks for the info Rbstehno.
Beheme, do you recommend the Avalons over anything from Audio Physic? I know you have been please with those in the past as well - is the Avalon offering another step up??? |
Avalon's soundstage is something very special and if you liked the Arros, chances are you will love how they image: very deep and wide, literally disappearing. One small constraint: to really benefit from Avalons, one should have the freedom to place them way into the room. As far as the offering, budget will drive the models available to you. Price-wise, AP offers more choice between $2000 and $7000 than Avalon and they sound different. Avalon would be more "neutral" but at the same price point, AP will give you more bass (but not better bass). Between AP Yaras and Avalon Studio Pros or Symbol, the Avalon speakers offer more transparency...yet Yaras are no loser either! Both are great makes but again, Arros sound can be found and improved in Avalon more than AP. On the other hand, AP only needs 30W so the tube amp will be easier and cheaper to find. |
