A question for the OP, Teajay. Did you have room treatment as part of your system when you auditioned all of the DACs? Bass absorbers and mid to high freq reflection point absorbers? Also curious how big your room is, and how far out in to the room your Maggies are.
Thanks!
Bryan |
Hi Bryan, here's the answers to your questions:
1)I do not use any room treatments except an Acoustic Revive wave generator tweek. My house is a post and beam home and was built to allow my MG-20's to really "sing" in this very large open space with the posts and beams being great to absorb/reflect the sound.
2) The acoustic space that my system projects into is 40 feet wide, about 60 feet long and the height of the totally open ceiling is about 30 feet.
3) The MG-20's are six feet off the front wall, have no side wall reflections and I sit about 12 feet away with no back wall for another 15 feet. |
Wow, that is a huge room and very high ceiling. And minimal reflective issues I would imagine. Sounds like a great room for the big Maggies. |
Simply put, Burmester 069 or 089 CDP/DAC/PRE. In my estimation, they are at the very, very top. All the sonic virtues of tubes and all the sonic virtues of ss. And I mean that in a very humble and forthright manner. |
Teajay,
I had the Accustic Arts DAC 1, Mk IV, but replaced it with the Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC. Although the AA DAC is very good, to my ear the BAD Alpha DAC is the biggest leap forward in audio that I have heard in over 30 years in this hobby. It also has a remote volume control so you can go direct to your amp and eliminate the preamp -- improves the sound no matter how good your preamp is.
Now I am looking for a possible upgrade to my AA Drive 1. Would be interested in any suggestions you or others might have. I listen only to classical and violins are the ballgame: the key to me is resolving the problem of aggressive or bright or over analytical or too forward highs. I would want to avoid any transport that would exacerbate that basic problem with redbook digital reproduction. |
Dcgraves, congrats on your Berkeley DAC I'm glad you are enjoying it. Take a look at my comments on my system regarding the reference MBL transport that just replaced its baby brother in my system. I can honestly say, and I have heard virtually all of the most highly regarded red book transports there are, that the reference MBL is the best I have ever heard. The sonic concerns you stated would all but be gone, and other virtues would be added by this transport. |
teajay have you tried a good analogue turntable setup ? have you tried feeding a good computer hard drive rig to your accustic arts dac ? |
Hi Doggrell3000, here's the answers to your questions:
1) I just recently listened to a very highend analogue front end, I know this is heresy to some, I liked my digital front end better.
2) Nope never tried a hard drive in my system. |
Teajay, I am not sure if you mentioned it earlier, but have you had a chance to hear the BDAC? I was that close to getting one before I went for the EMM single-box, but the BDAC does seem to be getting many good comments, and hard drive connectivity does seem like a possibility down the road. I know you hear a lot of great gear, has this one crossed your path? |
Hi Paul, I will admit my ignorance regarding the BDAC. I'm curious and would be interested in this DAC that you are asking about, please share some details regarding it. Thanks in advance. |
Just to avoid confusion, I do mean the Berkeley DAC. |
Paul, now that I know you were talking about the Berkeley DAC, the answer is yes I auditioned it. I thought it was good, to me it was a type one DAC, and I still liked my AA Tube Hybrid much better and found it to be much more musical. Since all I really care about red book Cd's I still find this DAC terrific in my system. Now that I have added the Reference MBL transport to drive this DAC it even performs at a higher level. |
Terry, the AA Tube DAC has been in your system quite a while, it must be something very special since I suspect you have been trying to find something to take that "next step" and the AA has held up against som tough competition. Seeing how your system has evolved, I would think you have it totally dialed in, in that fantastic room. |
Hi Paul, your right on the mark regarding the enjoyment of my system. I have heard/auditioned about another four DACs and found them to good, maybe different then the AA DAC, but not more musical or overall more pleasing to my tastes.
Now that I have the reference MBL transport and after having much fun tube rolling in both the DAC and my preamp I really would agree that the system is really,"dialed in", and gives me great musical pleasure. I have finally settled on Mazda 12AX7 chrome plates/gray long plates in the AA DAC and Amperex 12AU7 long plate D getters in my preamp. This combination is just magic in my system. I wish you could come on over and just sit down and enjoy the music. Maybe one day, as you have an open invite anytime your in Chicago. |
Digital has me wondering...and listening to records a lot.
1.0 16-bit is out (redbook)as pretty ordinary and no better than an LP. I say no better as most of my CD's are worse...rats.
2.0 24-bit has no real commercial support (FLAC is a common bootleg support it seems) but should.
3.0 Players (my oppo BDP-83SE) don't support FLAC, or a bunch of other 24-bit lossles files. They claim it is hardware, not firmware. The latest firmware update excludes stereo 24-bit formats except SACD.
4.0 Can you guys "make" SACD discs from FLAC files on a PC and THEN use them in your player?
I just don't like the idea of having all my music married to the wall outlet or a HD that fails. A hunk of something in my hand is what I want, I think. I really don't like the idea of turning on a PC every time I just want to sit down and relax to music. Stick the "blank" in a devise and walk away. Shoot, people hated records because they were a hassle. These DAC devices are way worse it seems.
But, 24-bit is where it is at for probably pretty killer sound and dynamic range, both. I'm just not sure where to start after 16-bit wave files on my OPPO...and what will REMAIN supported going forward in the commercial space, like BUY stuff already encoded on a disc, PROM or something.
For now digital other than CD and SACD isn't really supported. 24-bit is on a bootleg type of effort and a bunch of time on your PC, but not the commercial space that I can see. Blue ray seems the min for support as the file sizes are about 50MEG every 3-4 minutes of program material.
So, how is everyone handling 24-bit in light of such scarce support? For now I'm looking for records! |
Teajay , i don't know who you are. but i just want to say : THANK YOU ! |
Hmmm..this thread just hit 666 posts. Must mean the Devilsound DAC will soon ascend to the reference category.
Or descend. |
I have the Accustic Arts Drive 1 MK2 and the Dac1 MK4. They are connected to a BAT VK51SE preamp and Krell 650mono blocks. The speakers are JM LAB Focal Utopias. I can honestly say that with fair to excellant recordings it is VERY musical! I am glad to have discovered the AA digital front end. |
This thread some very experienced listeners and some owners of some of the finest DAC made, I wonder as DAC evolved and we move forward do you see music servers in your immediate future? Is USB connection essential to your next DAC purchase. I feel I am sticking with what I have for a long while (a CD player) as it seems the computer-based future has a long way to go before it is ready for prime time. |
Pupil57, there seems to be now a clear trend toward flexible front end devices that supply both digital inputs and outputs.... Example is the Esoteric K-01 and K-03 I believe. Furthermore, manufacturers that have traditionally stayed out of the front end arena because of sheer distrust of moving parts, are starting to introduce DAC-only products... see for example the $10K Rowland Aeris shown at CES, fed by Mac minis with Amara.
Considering that I have historically kept my front end players for 5 to 10 years each, I venture to suspect that my next front end will be flexible enough to accomodate a server-based transport. Whether the connection between transport and DAC will be USB, HDMI, Wi-Fi, Ethernet, Light Peak, or other.... is still undetermined. |
Do you believe the move to computer-based storage is being caused by real improvements in sound quality, as an improved "transport" vehicle, or simply convenience? I'm not sure I wold go through the trouble of loading my 3,000 on to a hard drive of some kind, unless it was sonic step forward, I don't find it that inconvenient to pull out a CD and putting it in my player. |
Less Loss is a pure stream, so is claimed. Unfortunately, the resulting data has to a go through an interface before the DAC. True? Right now, the info gleaned by my super faithful transport feeds the DAC directly. |
My sense of this is that there was a lot of hoopla over computer storage as an approach (regarding sound quality)pumped up by the reviewers to some extent - a whole new product category, but my hunch (no knowledge) is that it still hard to beat a CD with a high quality transport feeding a high quality DAC. I feel there has been some back tracking on the original claims of superiority over the transport approach - there seems to be a lot of variables of hardware and software and connection types and at this point I just find it all too confusing. |
I'm open to hearing anything in my own set-up to evaluate which I have actually done allot and currently I haven't heard any of these devises no matter how much they cost making me want to part with my MBL 1621a/AA Tube Dac combo except say my vinyl set-up.
When I personally heard the Memory Player for example, (not the latest version, they seem to change allot) exspensive pce. too, some listening were overly excited saying this and that but personally the exsperience left me scratching my head wondering what the heck are they hearing. Yes it sounded good, yes it was more convinient once you took the time and got it all loaded up with music but no way did I see my self trading in my combo any time soon.
Looking forward to hearing some of the latest and greatest to see if there are any changes.
In the end just enjoy!
|
Hi Dev,
That was very interesting to read. I myself bought a Zanden DAC (s/hand) about 2 years ago because i wanted the flexibility for the future. (for now, not too focused on high-res...particularly given price/performance of my Zanden second-hand).
I thought i would be moving faster on server...and have not been impressed by the little i've heard...and am actually thinking now i (might) go with a really nice (s/hand) transport to hold me over for the next 5 years or so with my existing redbook until the servers really take over properly. i suspect it might be as long as 2+ years before someone really figures this out...and even a bit longer to make it truly plug and play. so far, i have seen nothing as easy/reliable as plugging in a transport, dropping in a CD and pressing play... |
That sounds like a plan.... |
For $6K the PS Audio Perfect Wav trans and dac are hard to beat. The transport is a buffered memory player (play DVD's with up 24/192 wav files) with a digital lense reclock of the singal handed off to the DAC via HDMI. The DAC handles all sampling frequencies up to 24/192 natively or one can upsample up to 24/192. I have found playing any bit depth, sampling rate to sound best played native. PS Audio also recommends this. |
I agree that for the price the PS Audio pieces offer a good sonic performance, however they are no were close to the level of AA Tube reference DAC on redbook. I just again heard the latest generation PS Audio combo and fine it OK, but nothing to write home about if we are talking state of the art performance.
I agree with Dev, that the AA Tube DAC and MBL reference transport are still my favorite combo compared to everything I still listen to or audition. |
04-07-11: Teajay
I agree that for the price the PS Audio pieces offer a good sonic performance, however they are no were close to the level of AA Tube reference DAC on redbook. I just again heard the latest generation PS Audio combo and fine it OK, but nothing to write home about if we are talking state of the art performance.
I agree with Dev, that the AA Tube DAC and MBL reference transport are still my favorite combo compared to everything I still listen to or audition.
The PS Audio doesn't use tubes, so what your saying is you like the sound of tubes ? That really has nothing to do with the D/A conversion, ect. It's just the output stage. For me, tubes color the sound which can be nice. It all comes down to preference and the rest of your system components and how well they work with your DAC of choice. When it comes to top level dacs, we are really talking about the handling of jitter and the analog output stage...The D/A chips are really a moot subject. It all depends on their implementation. For my system, I couldn't be happier with the PW combo. No upsampling required although you can if you want. I play everything Native whether it's 16/44 or 24/192. In the end, my analog rig kicks any digital rig's butt...that's another subject all together. (wink) When you can listen to a digital rig and not get listening fatique after a couple of hours listening like analog, you have found you digital frontend nirvahnna. For me, that is the PW System. |
Rockitman, I'm very glad for you that the PS Audio pieces give you what you are looking for in your system. They also are quite cost effective for how they perform to what they cost.
However, they don't compete sonicly on redbook when compared to DACS like the AA Tube Reference or the Concert Fidelity, which both happen to be tube based. Does that mean I like the sound of "tubes" or that if the right tubes are used correctly it sounds more like real music? I don't like the old euphonic tubey sounding DACS that I have auditioned in the past, however the two DACS mentioned above do not sound that way and perform much better sonicly, for me, then the best SS based DACS.
And your (wink) I find someone silly, the best analog sounds different then the best digital, which I don't think you have heard in your system with the PS Audio pieces, different yes but better, that's just a matter of taste. I have recently tried a couple more auditions with very highly regarded analog front ends to see if the magic of LP's would make my digital front end sound broke and the answer was no. Both are quite good, but different for me and the hassle of LP's makes what ever difference their is even less important compared to listening to alot more music every day. |
Hi Teajay,
I have not heard of the DAC's you mention. They sound like they are wonderful. I have been a hi-end digital guy since the mid 90's. I refused to research the analog world. My last turntable was from 1980 and I stopped spinning vinyl around 1985. That said, re-introducing myself earlier this year to analog, I found myself shocked regarding the sound of vinyl. My turntable was not cheap...around $15K with cart. All I can say is that I have not had a desire to listen to digital since then. If I have the vinyl or the CD source, even hi-rez digital, I will opt for the vinyl playback. One thing for sure, records sound like the source intended. In no way can the A/D conversion, even hi-rez digital can stand up to vinyl. Things are lost in the A/D conversion and there is no way to get around that. Auditioning an analog rig in your system and comparing it to your digital front end is a much fairer comparison than auditioning a table at a high end shop with components, speakers different than yours. I am not trying to corrupt you. My system is very highly resolving and the diffrences between analog playback and digital is clear. Different strokes for different folks I guess. Enjoy the music. Cheers ! |
Hi Teajay, you said;
"I have recently tried a couple more auditions with very highly regarded analog front ends to see if the magic of LP's would make my digital front end sound broke and the answer was no."
what did you happen to listen to?
As you know we both have the same digtal front end and I agree it's absolutely top notch and personally my favorite also but I can say without any doubt no way did my MBL & AA come close to my analog set-up. It's night and day and the magic is most defiently there to the point it's been some time now since I have even listened to my cd's so I recently sold it all off.
My current vinyl set-up;
TW Acustic Black Knight table placed upon a custom made Minus K platform.
Two different arm and carts combos;
REED arm, MSL Ultra BC cart and the second one a TW 10.5 arm with a A90 cart.
P.S. I'm waiting to receive some marvelous mono blocks, VAC Statement 450's. I should receive them end of May early June. I made a flight earlier in the year, was a once in a million chance to be able to actually hear these amps with the same speakers and pre-amp as mine in someones home, after having the pleasure of listening to them for three days I was lost for words and left in awe and couldn't wait to place my order.
In relation to red-book, I have a great collection and have no plans of getting rid of them but currently knowing what I know now in relation to the two formats red-book isn't high on my priorty.
Rockitman, I will have to agree with Teajay in relation to comparison to the PS, I also had one in my system for a while, sorry no comparison.
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One thing I know for sure Dev....Chasing the digital dragon never quite satisfies. Analog ? It's like coming home to roost. Home sweet home. Cheers ! |
Hi Dev, yes I know that you are waiting for your Vac monoblocks, congrats! Sounds like you finally found what you were looking for in these monoblocks.
Dear friend, this time we will just have to agree to disagree. I have auditioned to very highly regarded analog front ends, each one was around 15k to 20K retail, and I'm sorry I found no magic in their sonics compared to my digital front end. For a matter of fact besides surface noise off the records I found them somewhat lacking in microdetails and did not find them to have more liquidity or ease then what I'm use to in my digital front end. I listened to the same recordings, mainly Blue Note 50's or early 60's, my records that were clean and pristine compared with my redbook cds and liked the cd as much as the records. So, no great magic for me, however maybe with the right analog rig, just the right recordings nice and clean and everything working perfactly that magic still might be in those grooves, however, call me lazy, I like just putting in the CD and listening to music. I have not found the hassles of playing records to be worth it based on sonics alone. I still have over 400 albums that I keep giving away to good homes of friends with turntables who will use them and enjoy them. |
I had a chance to hear a comparison of the new Esoteric K-01, an EMM Labs XDS1 and an Esoteric P03/D03/G0 over the weekend at a dealer's home. The K01 had been played about 360 hours, so still had a ways to go with respect to break in. I would note that the availability of a large number of filter choices is both a curse and a boon. I was somewhat unsure what value some of the choices offerred such as the native 44.1 Redbook which was clearly inferior to other combinations. While I would caution that comparing three different CD playing devices over a three hour period is not ideal and that I hope to do further listening as the K01 has more hours on it, my initial impression is that the K01 is quite good on Redbook, better in some ways than either the otyher Esoteric gear or the EMM Labs; however, the EMM Labs is at this point clearly superior on SACD, but not night and day. The K01 seems to retain much of the best from earlier Esoteric players, low noise, low distortion, great detail and excellent dynamics but to have a richer tonal palette. Again, these are just first thoughts, but I highly suggest auditioning a fully broken in K01. Note that straight from the box, its sound is less than optimal. IT ALSO NEEDS TO NE WARMED UP AND IS SENSITIVE TO POWER CORDS. |
Hi Teajay,
I agree it most defiantly is oaky to agree to disagree but that being said from reading your responce you just haven't heard a proper vinyl set-up just like when you hear different digital set-ups.
You are invited any time to come for a listen. Living with my RED-BOOK as long as I did and directly comparing the best cd recordings I have along with comparing duplicate recording that I also have on vinyl I'm sory but there were really no comparisons sonic wise in the end, vinyl prevailing.
The set-ups you referred to being $15-$20k, I'm not sugesting money means anything but you know your RED-BOOK pces are far from being cheap, just alone the 1621a list for over $26K. My REED arm and MSL cart fall into that category alone with what you heard cost wise, when I owned the AC3 which lists for $18K it surpased my red-book set-up.
When listening to my red-book cd collection I find that there are more lessor quality recordings than top notch amazing sounding ones, now compare that to my present LP collection and it's not even close, I currently have very few records that I would say are not amazing sounding.
My set-up, the way I have it is just set and forget it, no fussing around unless I'm doing comparisions and that's how I like it. I'm not a fanatic wanting to fuss with this and that, I just clean my records once from receipt and then all I do is one quick swipe using my brush prior to actually playing, pretty simple and compares to removing and replacing the puck in the 1621.
Surface noise, yes I do have some of this on some recordings but that greatly depends on the actual recording and usually if it's there only present in between tracks so really not a biggy and once the music comes on such is gone and oh my it's just time to listen to some great tunes. Magic, all I can say is WOW! and more WOW! with my set-up but in the end as we both know it's all personal.
You have over 400 records you just keep giving away, damn I'll take all of them off your hands, sure would assist in my collection.
I have just started so I'm sure you likely have some awesome pces, let me know how we can work this out. PM me or give me a call.
It's all about the music in the end so as long as you are able to listen enjoy no matter what your poison may be that's all that really matters.
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Teajay, while this topic has run it's course, it helped me arrive at a sound that surpasses my wildest expectations. I have heard a wide number of Audio Note systems. My own system's DACs have been Audio Note for years.
I did not care for the Audio Note transports. I heard spacial distortion that displeased me. I used PSA Lambda successfully for a couple years. The combination was very good. It was not the last word on detail, or frequency extension, as, you pointed out.
For my DAC, I stuck with my Audio Note while adding cutting edge diodes. these diodes pass on the full array of digital information, hidden by the usual AN diodes. I can't remember if I read it here or somewhere else, anyway, I had the pleasure of finding the 47 Lab site. Just reading their philosophy, I became a devoted advocate for their transports. The 47 lab DAC, in conjunction with their transport, was lovely, true toned, an is the ultimate in musicality IMO.
On the other hand, the 47 Lab transport used with my Audio Note * it became a musical event producing a sound I had not dreamed possible. It gives full expression including PRAT, ultimate extension, decay to black, alarming dynamics, and a spritely micro-dynamic play that is most satisfying in piano solos.
bugles squeal, violins sweetly sear, cymbals crash, clang, and ring, Giant drum skins hit have that soft whack, a quick ripple crack, then a deep chested boom.
Singers are presented forward and are so lovingly living. The tiniest inflection can be heard, but never does detail trump realism. The highs are exquisitely fine. Bass is fully expressed, remaining a musical part of a musical whole in harmony.
It goes one important step further, though. The music as a wonderful flow. Harmonies, positional seating, roll off in a way only the best Vinyl systems can approach.
My system eschews all oversampling, upsampling, and filters. They all sound contrived on my system. I have not heard some of the highest brands you love. I would like to give them a try, though I hold little hope for them.
I have found every components must be designed to do the least amount of harm to the music signal. Every time the signal is switched, filtered, made to jump hoops, the more the signal looses bits and pieces.
......
.. |
http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=423
The worlds first DAC to feature a 32bit/384kHz conversion technique, the DAC I-MK3 utilizes an Accustic Arts exclusive: an 8-times oversampling, 119dB dynamic, premium quality parallel multiplier with 32-bit accumulator that boosts incoming, 16-bit signal beyond 24-bit, to 32-bit resolution before conversion.
Each statement - pure joy!
Hahaha, an 8-times oversampling...
Very warm analogue sound. |
Hi Rokka,
I had the AA DAC-1MK3 and wrote a review of it here on the GON. It was quite good, however, it is not as musical and as natural sounding as the AA Tube Hybrid reference DAC that still is my reference in my system. |
Muralman1, "Every time the signal is switched, filtered, made to jump hoops, the more the signal looses bits and pieces." Very interesting comment comming from you, after you have so frequently posted so many positive comments re: your prefered switching amplifier. |
Just telling it like it is. I make no bones about how I was lucky in most instances at the start. Then, it occurred to me, the winning path for increasing simplicity of the music's path was obvious. |
Teajay,
Have you tried the "SE" version of your dac? |
Tab110s, the answer is no for the following reasons:
1) For the increase of about $500.00 you get what AA calls hand selected NOS tubes. Well, I have some of the finest NOS 12AX7's and 5751's, about ten different brands, to tailor the sound of my system. So, this part of the upgrade is not worth it to me.
2) Yes, for the $500.00 AA put some were in the DAC higher tolerance parts, however, it was not proven to me this would make a sonic difference that would be a difference in a blind fold test.
I have talked to a couple of friends who ears' I trust that have heard both versions of this DAC and there conclusion was what tubes you use make more of a difference then anything else and there is really no clear difference between the orginal and SE version of this great sounding piece. |
This is a great thread and Ive found this very helpful in deciding on my next dac.
My local dealer has been really pitching the new AMR DP 777 Dac and he describes at as a design with the musicality of Audio Note as it is also tube base but with a state of the art design/implementation on the input end to ensure detail/data are optimized.
I was intrigue at their split desing to handle redbook and hi-rez through two different chip/circuit paths. Seems extravagant but also logical base on their reasons.
I've started to browse their website and was impress with their design concept and have noticed recent shows, other vendors have been using more AMR gear in their demo setups.
I would love to learn if anyone has experience with this latest AMR Dac and if they can speak on how it compares to other reference caliber Dacs (AA, BADA, DCS,Audio Note, etc...) |
Geraldedison
One of the big magazines (Hifi+ ??) has a new review of the AMR 77 cdp...you may wish to check it out. pls keep us posted! |
Lloydelee21,
Thanks for the heads up, I'll check it out.
I've emailed the AMR folks to learn where's the nearest dealer in my state. They provided me a contact that's 30 mins from my home, but they haven't received their demo model of the AMR DP777 yet. Suppose to be in a couple of weeks. I look forward to visiting them once they break it in. |
good luck and pls keep uposted! |
I am switching over from recent cd players like Esoteric X-03, and a Wadia 21, to a mac mini. I was thinking spending 1000-3500 in the used market for a USB or firewire dac.
What do peaople suggest for my first DAC? |
There are a lot of USB->SPDIF and USB->AES/EBU converters out there so do not limit yourself to only DACs with a USB interface. With a name like "tubesrule", I suggest the Manley Reference or The Wave DAC. Eveanna would be proud. 8-) |
I've been trying to get an audition for the AMR DP 777 but none of the local dealers has this in stock. It seems the first batch that was made had been all sold out and even dealers haven't been able to get their hands on it.
All they could offer me was an audition with the CD 77 which the distributor claims is very similar to the DP 777 for redbook playback.
The DP 777 does have the advantage of hi-res playback as well.
The dealer expects to get his hand on his DP 777 roughly at the end of this month or early oct. If this dac does sound like the CD 77 for redbook playback, I will not hesitate to pick one up. All the reviews for the CD 77 have been very positive.
That's it for now. |
