Time for an update. I have just received the first vinyl music I have bought in 40 years, but is it not jazz! It is something I don’t much like, Beethoven’s Triple Concerto which really is a piano trio with orchestral backing. The four sides average 15 minutes each, but I cannot tell without playing it whether it is 33 or 45 rpm. I already had the von Karajan, Richter, Oistrakh, Rostropovich recording! This new one is the latest from Decca (London).
"Beethoven Triple Concerto: arguably the least successful of any of Beethoven’s mature concertos in the concert hall. It’s one of those pieces that never seems to get a performance that does it justice. Usually, you get po-faced seriousness when a big orchestra and three star names try to out-do each other, as the cello, violin, and piano soloists fight for the limelight. On disc, it hasn’t fared much better, and there’s an infamous Herbert von Karajan recording from 1969 with David Oistrakh on violin, Sviatoslav Richter on piano, and cellist Mstislav Rostropovich: it’s a nadir of gigantic egos trying to trump each other, a bonfire of the vanities from which Karajan and the Berlin Phil still somehow manage to emerge victorious.
(Richter himself said of it: "It’s a dreadful recording and I disown it utterly… Battle lines were drawn up with Karajan and Rostropovich on the one side and Oistrakh and me on the other… Suddenly Karajan decided that everything was fine and that the recording was finished. I demanded an extra take. ’No, no,’ he replied, ’we haven’t got time, we’ve still got to do the photographs.’ To him, this was more important than the recording. And what a nauseating photograph it is, with him posing artfully and the rest of us grinning like idiots.")"
Now, there are 188 versions listed on Presto Classical, and for about half the price of the 1 hour vinyl, I can buy this plus the complete symphonies lasting over 6 hours on 6 SACDs.
Ah well ... still ready to splash some cash on a special jazz album
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Thanks to everybody who has responded so far.
I would have liked to have had more space in the title to make it clear that I am not really looking for opinions on equipment, just for one or more jazz records capable of sounding excellent on vinyl.
I hope to make my own mind up later on the question of digital or vinyl after listening!
It is really interesting to me that some vinyl versions of "Kind of Blue" had some tracks recorded at the wrong speed - apparently fixed on the CD I bought and the A$145 original master recording vinyl (which seems to have been remastered on to DSD-64 before becoming "original" again.
Please keep those suggestions coming ...
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@lewm "With all due respect, you asked a very bad, very open-ended question with many ambiguous edges (the question pre-supposes that analog is in fact superior to digital and that there is or could ever be such a thing as a recording that could possibly prove such a tenuous proposition to all listeners), and yet some have tried to respond. Amazing. No doubt this thread will live on for yet a few more weeks"
My question was deliberately open, because I am looking for real guidance on what jazz record(s) to buy. Unfortunately, my topic title had to be truncated so it read as if there might be an absolute truth!
My sincere thanks to those who have taken the trouble to list excellent jazz recordings, especially when they have provided a link! I don't know much about jazz - most of what I listen to is large-scale classical which almost by definition often has huge dynamic range. Jazz should be easier for vinyl.
Based on the responses so far, the consensus would seem to be that vinyl has no over-whelming, intrinsic advantage these days, despite what many dealers / magazines say.
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@kennyc Thanks for the link to TAS' list. I am glad the recording I always use for speaker assessment is on it, albeit using its highbrow title! Decca’s 1969 recording of Benjamin Britten conducting his “Young Person’s Guide to the Orchestra”. aka "Variations and Fugue on a Theme of Purcell". Mind you I use the CD or streaming ;-)
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@herman How do I know if I have "vinyl hardware properly set up and optimized" without something worthwhile to play on it?
Yes, there are a lot of variables but I want to eliminate poor recordings (your variable 1,000,001) as a source.
Maybe my question should have been "What half-a-dozen beautifully produced jazz recordings currently available on new vinyl records should I buy"? I don't think replay hardware has any bearing on the answer to this question?
Ultimately, I want to be able to judge whether it is worth spending any more on my vinyl hardware, or stick with digital.
As luck would have it, Hyperion has just released vinyl versions of Marc-Andre Hamelin playing Shostakovich's First and Second Piano Concertos. The first includes trumpet solo, one of my wishes! For years, the second movement of the second concerto, recorded in 2002 on SACD, has been the second track I always use for evaluating speakers.
I have ordered the two-record set but have no idea what the weight of the vinyl is, nor its colour, nor even its speed. At 10 minutes average per side, it might be 45-rpm. Ironically, the third work on the SACD is Shchedrin's Second Piano Concerto which features a jazz trio (piano, drum kit and vibrophone) but it is not on the vinyl.
Shostakovich had a difficult musical life and loved jazz, not a strong point in the Soviet Union, A few days after Stalin walked out of a performance of his opera, Pravda described the work as a 'cacophonous and pornographic insult to the Soviet people'. Stalin had a deserved reputation for eliminating people, and was Pravda's main arbiter of taste as its music critic. Most of Shostakovich is tortured, but the tranquil test piece I use was written after he realised he had survived the murderous Stalin.
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@wanders Thanks! I am glad to report that I can hear the difference between DSD64 and CD. I bought a Reavon universal player and could immediately tell, using the SACD I mention above, that its analogue output fell way short of my previous Marantz universal player.
I emailed Reavon and it transpired that they down convert DSD to CD quality, both for multi-channel DSD and two-channel DSD, when the output is set to analogue. Interestingly, no review I have read has picked this up!
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@herman In my reply to you I clarified that "Ultimately, I want to be able to judge whether it is worth spending any more on my vinyl hardware, or stick with digital".
Unfortunately my original title for this thread had to be truncated, and did not properly convey this intent.
If I do upgrade, most likely it will be to a Holbo deck with tangential air-bearing arm, and an air-bearing platter. Not much to adjust apart from getting the deck level, the tracking force right and the stylus rake angle set correctly. My favourite dealer, rated in the world's top five, should have installed the cartridge correctly. Much easier with a tangential arm!
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@cundare2
I have many "RCA Living Stereo, London ffrr, Mercury Living Presence, any of the early Telarcs" on record and CD / SACD, but sadly not the "Great Organ of Methuen Memorial Music Hall."
A lot of my Telarc records are digitally mastered. My go-to test piece is a London aka Decca ffrr.
In general, I usually prefer the first recording I hear to subsequent ones. Weird how the brain works ...
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@cundare2 Thanks for your thoughtful and explicit reply! I hit on Kind of Blue as a likely candidate after doing a bit of research. But when I first played it, I had the same reaction as most people have when they are confronted with their first classical piece. I like it more (loathe it less) each time I play it, and even find myself humming bits in my head.
My partner, who has much wider tastes in music, is still in the loathe it camp.
You mention Quad ESL speakers, without specifying the model. Usually Quad ESL on its own means the first model, which is sideways on three legs. Now known as the ESL 57 for the year it was introduced. I have a pair of Quad ESL 2905 which use completely different principles, and are a development of the ESL 63.
The UHQR recording of Kind of Blue is in-stock in Sydney for A$300. Deep breath! But only a bit more than twice the price of the Original Master Recording I mentioned. I am tempted ...
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@herman
When I re-started down the vinyl path, I took a few records I know very well to my favourite dealer to play on a deck I had previously heard, when it was used as the source for a speaker demonstration evening. That experience has not put me off. In simpler words, I liked what I heard. The dealer now wants a copy of one of my records, so it was a win-win.
Yes, it is hard to do a tangential arm properly, but that just means money has to be spent on precision engineering. The Holbo happens to be something of a bargain although it is certainly not cheap, at least in my book.
Regardless of what you think of my current (deliberately undisclosed) set-up, I will be taking my new records to play on quite high-end systems. Some for example with the A$300,000 speakers which I listened to a couple of days ago.
I hope this concept has not gone over your head ...
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@lewm
The UHQR version I have found in Sydney does indeed have the speed corrected.
Other details:
Mastered by Bernie Grundman from the Original 3-Track Master Tapes
Pressed at Quality Record Pressings using Clarity Vinyl®
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@cundare2
Thanks for the clarification on the ESL! As it happens I was looking for a pair of substitute speakers while repairing my Quad 2905 ones. First thought was KEF LS50 but I saw a video (cannot remember whether it was TAS or Stereophile) where an ESL-2905 owner was impressed by the stand-mount KEF Reference 1, which is almost ten times the price of the LS50. I bought a pair, and in many ways prefer them to the big Quads.
Harbeth and KEF both came out of BBC engineering (thanks, taxpayers) but KEF concentrates on apparent point-source coincident drivers.
Yep, I now live down-under in Oz, having once been a ten-pound pom!
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@ketchup
Thanks for the advice. Fortunately for my wallet, I don't have much more life to live. In reality, I am at the stage where I "just like to learn about and play with TTs, carts., and phonostages (which is a totally valid reason to have a TT in my opinion)".
I am particularly curious about the high regard given to Garrard 301 spinners, and the prices they command. Is it because they are inherently "neutral" or because they resonate harmoniously? Or the beautiful engineering, and feel? Or just that they start and stop almost instantaneously?
Another vinyl benefit is that my having to get up every few minutes to change a side lets my partner check whether I have croaked yet!
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@kennyc - I confess that I don't understand what adding "drive" actually means. They do have a big motor and stylus drag may be less of an issue. Not having rubber bands pulling the platter may help.
Tonearms - yes, an SME V costs more than the entire Holbo set up. My partner expects anything that expensive to have more than one diamond, and to be wearable.
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@herman
Ok, time to confess. I am restoring / upgrading my dad's Garrard 301 grease bearing model. So far I have upgraded the main bearing, pulley, idler and its bearings, new springs, etc. It is in an SME plinth which is mainly hollow and has springs for the mounting board. I am working to fill the plinth with layers of mdf separated by constrained layer damping, held together by gravity. I will be able to bypass the mounting board springs, so the table is not directly connected to the SME plinth, or leave the board suspended. The look of the plinth won't change, and it will keep its dust cover. The whole thing sits on blocks of good old Sydney sandstone. One day I might even open a new topic!
So far I have spent ten of the best KoBs on it ...
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@coltrane1
No worries, I never for a moment took it as an insult!
As the great, and recently late, British actress Maggie Smith said, "I have never insulted anyone, I simply describe them accurately".
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@lewm That's why I should open a new thread! There seem to be two broad approaches to 301 plinth design. One is an open-air skeleton to let the noise out, the other is to fill the voids as much as possible. I am experimenting with the second approach.
The SME mounting board is 18-mm chipboard, and I am infilling with 27-mm Medium Density Fibreboard (MDF) because I have it lying around. MDF is used in many speaker cabinets because it is an excellent absorber of sound. Garrard originally supplied springs and mountings to suspend whatever mounting board one chose. They also supplied four rubber washers to slightly de-couple the chassis from the mounting board.
My approach differs from others I have read about. I don't have to consider the look of the internal plinth because it will be hidden inside the SME one. The original SME dust cover will stay in place to mitigate airborne vibrations. I can experiment by removing the Garrard-supplied suspension components, and the rubber washers. The mounting board and every layer will simply lift out, so if need be I can experiment with different materials, including Baltic birch and the huge range of Australian hardwoods, such as red ironbark, and my favourite black-heart sassafras. I would like to experiment with Corian for the mounting board! I think Corian and engineered stone has just been banned in Australia because of silicosis! Mind you there is a lot of silica in sassafras too.
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@lewm No, I was lost. Could have been integrated circuit!
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@coltrane1
"But saying you don’t like jazz, is akin to stating you don’t understand jazz"
If that is directed at me, then I resemble the remark! I like some jazz, I don't like some. I know so little about jazz, I cannot name the sub-genres. This thread is helping!
Now if it were about classical, I'd be on home ground. But even there, I dislike more than I like. My desert island disks would be late-romantic large-scale orchestral with a dash of opera and piano! No lute music or harpsicord, which Beecham described as sounding like two skeletons copulating on a tin roof.
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@lewm
I could absolutely guarantee to find you some Vaughan Williams you would like, just because he wrote such an immense variety! You's have to listen more than once, though.
The open-air plinths are usually based on slate or some such. Slates are a bit like graphite, very directional with vastly different properties depending on where they are quarried.
My existing SME plinth includes springs and foam damping, though nowhere near as springy and undamped as a Linn. If I raise my internal plinth, the springs and damping will disengage. Each layer will start with constrained layer damping between it and the next layer. When the springs are disengaged, I will rely on three IsoAccoustics OREA Bordeaux pucks to ameliorate vibration coming up through my Sydney sandstone blocks.
Sydney sandstone is quite soft and porous with about 4% cavity. There's plenty of it. It is up to 600 feet thick and started to be deposited before dinosaurs walked this planet. Enough has washed away to form the up-side down Blue Mountains and to drift thousands of kilometers north to form the world's biggest sand island, K'gari once known as Fraser Island, which is almost 100 miles long.
I am very open to suggestions, and have a gut feeling that the Garrard is valued because of its resonances!
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@grislybutter
Last big live concert I went to was Paul McCartney and he did have a jazz band with him (more accurately, halfway along the side of the stadium).
It is noteworthy that his songs have to be memorable, not because they are classics, but because he has to remember them!
Must admit, I've never thought of him as a jazz musician ...
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... my partner, who is far more into popular genres than I am, says it was not a jazz band, just the brass section of his backing band. Pop she says!
By the way, the sound was literally painful, especially in the chest. I suppose it had to be - the venue was a packed cricket ground, afaik
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@miklavigne
Cartridges / phono-stages should honour the RIAA equalisation curve. Most cartridges have a distinct lift in the treble, which also means the leading edges of transients are accentuated. Of course, when mastering a record from a digital file, the recording engineer can modify whatever parameters he chooses. In general we like louder!
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OK - I did highlight one style of jazz that I know I like, the jazz in the film Babylon. It is available on a 2-LP set, and represents a modern take on 1920s jazz with dazzling trumpet solos. Does that help?
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@grislybutter
How about Cleo Lane? She could sing ballads, swing and do scat with very pure, very rapid notes backed by ’her’ British Jazz band led by Johnny Dankworth (later Sir John Dankworth). I remember a drum solo where the drummer ended up playing one tiny end of a vertically held drumstick with another drumstick. Had the audience spellbound.
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Cleo Laine, or Lady Dankworth as she is now known, was also an actress, singer in musicals (eg Show Boat in London which ran for 910 performances) and an opera singer (Kurt Weill's The Seven Deadly Sins).
For those who think British jazz ain't jazz, she was recognised in the USA:
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@atmasphere
Thanks for your detailed advice! I have a lot of classical CDs and SACDs where the original was mastered on Westrex systems, mainly Mercury Living Presence. I also have vinyl records where the master is stated to be digital on the sleeve, for example Telarc recordings.
I don't mind random pops and ticks, but a few of my records have scratches which might be mitigated on a better deck. I have a couple of HOMM cartridges so nowhere near state-of-the-art. I have invested in an Achromat platter mat to control vinyl resonances, plus a puck and carbon fibre brush.
I have an entry-level Krell KSB-7B pre-amplifier with external power supply so I doubt that RFI is a problem there, but who knows?
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@lewm and everybody else! Yes, I have a mountain of advice on what jazz records to buy, and I am sifting through it all.
Meanwhile if I spot new classical record releases with excellent reviews for a fifth or a tenth of the cost of the best audiophile jazz, I'll grab them!
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@lewm
IC? NFI!
RFI = Radio Frequency Interference
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@atmasphere
OK, RFI via the tonearm cable makes sense! The Krell has adjustable impedance from 5 to 47,000 Ohms, set with internal switches, for MC cartridges. It has switchable gain for MM cartridges. Its frequency range is 5 to 100,000 Hz within 1 dB and it is a fully balanced design with no capacitors in the signal path.
The manual talks about positioning of both the power supply and other components like CD players to minimise hum, which I have had to work on, starting with the deck.
The original cables in my SME 3009 tonearm (series 2 improved with fixed head shell) must be 40 years old, and the connectors at the cartridge end have become heavily oxidised. One of the connectors came adrift when I changed cartridges and had to be soldered back. Despite this, I am thrilled with the replay quality.
One day when I get more confident, I should seriously look at replacing the litz wiring but it looks like a very fiddly job.
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@robob My inexactitude! In the back of my mind was the raised treble response many cartridges display ...
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Once again, thanks to everyone who has come up with specific recommendations! If I seem slow to take them up, it is partly because I am away from home a lot.
I've also had to service my Mercedes Sprinter, which carries a motorhome body. Normally a service is about A$1,000 and this time I was quoted $1,250. It has only travelled 80,000-kms, and needed its first change of disk pads. The original quote did not include $1,000 for parts and oils! They spotted a slight oil leak from the steering, and told me I needed a new steering rack. By now the quote was north of $A11,000. I cut the non-essentials but still got hit for A$3,500.
This has postponed my record buying for a couple of months!
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@atmasphere
I am interested in your insight on the role digital mastering has played in LP production over the decades?
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Another update from me. I discovered that Hyperion has just released Shostakovich’s Piano Concertos on vinyl, and I already use the SACD version when auditioning speakers.
So I ordered the vinyl from Presto Classical, and naturally checked out their specials. I ended up buying 15 SACDs, one Pure Audio Blu-ray, and 5 CDs as well.
The grand total including delivery was less than the ’best’ vinyl version of Kind of Blue sourced locally in Sydney. Delivery took under a week from the UK to Australia, door to door, via Presto, the Royal Mail and Australia Post. A$261 the lot.
Presto currently lists over 19,000 vinyl Jazz records which I am about to browse in conjunction with your recommendations ...
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