Ritteri...Not sarcastic my friend. I guess it is even difficult to agree with you.
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Ritteri, thanks for your suggestions regarding recordings with ultra-low frequency tones. I will truly check them out. My experience has been that most redbook CDs trying to articulate low bass simply double the 40 Hz tone (+3-4dB) and allow room resonance to do the rest. It is well known that you do not have to produce the fundamental tone (spectral pitch) in order to "hear" it (virtual pitch). In fact the difference between spectral and virtual pitch may explain why we naturally want to boost the bass and attenuate the treble in order to obtain "full-range". A pure spectral 20 Hz tone is extremely hard to produce acoustically (think 32 foot diapason) and though fairly easy to synthesize electronically even more rarely recorded as such. Why bother when a 40 Hz tone overloaded into a boosted subwoofer "sounds" like the real thing? |
Quote by Eldertford: "Ritteri...I'm glad that you endorse boosting 20-80 Hz by several dB" Was that a sarcastic remark? =O Do I ever deserve a sarcastic remark? =) lol! Its true, a naturally sounding "flat" response to our ears looks like a gently rolling slope downward from 20hz to 20khz. Our ears are least sensitive to the bottom 2 octaves and most sensitive to the highest 2 octaves. |
Ritteri...I'm glad that you endorse boosting 20-80 Hz by several dB, because that is what I usually do after geting the system flat. But I always felt guilty about it...like eating too much ice cream. I also use the tweeter padding resistors with my Maggies, to roll off the high end, and that gets flac also. Organ music and bass drums do get down to the 20Hz range, no argument about that. It's just that organs and bass drums are a tiny fraction of the music I listen to. I don't do rock/pop, but I do know that it always sounds like it has a lot of bass content. However, this music is customarily presented via ProSound loudspeakers, that do not claim response below 30 Hz. I have a CD of a German "um-pa" band with many tubas. When I find that disk I will make a point of checking for SW activity. I also have an LP of the Dukes of Dixieland which sounds as of it has a lot of bass, but to my surprise it really is not that low in frequency. |
A recording with a 20hz tone? Dr. Dre's Chronic Album for one. There are alot of popular rap albums with loads of synthesized bass notes that go well below 40hz, too many to list. 311's Music album is another great example. Its loaded with alot of harmonic sweeps from 20-40hz too that blend with the bass guitarists melodies. |
Although people know Im bull headed about being a big fan of dynamics speakers, Planers,esls etc do come in handy in certain circumstances. For "easy listening" at low volumes I do have a place in my heart for my ML prodigies, though they are nothing compared to the Salon's. Harbeth Studio 40's: Very nice! =) |
Muralman, I now understand your passion for the Scintillas. Whatever part of the "Ground Hog Day" loop you and the Apogee Corporation are trapped in I am so glad that it allows you to revel in obsolescence. Frogman, you are right on. Physics and mathematics defy the appeal of the Quads but they sound most like a piano to me too. As to frequency response I can only say GET REAL. Name me a recording with a 20 Hz tone, please. |
To shorty interupt: I will settle for Cary slp88, Odyssey Stratos monoblocks and HARBETH STUDIO 40. Will buy them used, of course. Just mention my findings regarding ESL or Planar speakers that i auditioned. ML and Maggies have certain qualities, but as far as natural sound, they aren't as good as dynamic speakers. They sound very FAKE! I do not know about Quad though. Thanks for your suggestions. |
Eldartford: Ever listen to alot of Jazz with Tenor Sax's,bass?How about a 20" kickdrum? How about big band with a few tuba's? Though I currently dont use subs(but will be soon)and have floor standers that are flat to 20hz, I feel Im still losing a bit of presense. Same holds true for the other end of the spectrum with other instruments. Truth in the matter is that your subwoofers shouldnt be "flat" to 20hz. The last 2 octaves(20-80hz roughly) should be tuned to be about 3-4db higher up at least, while the top 2 octaves(5khz-20khz) should be roughly attenutated about the same amount for our ears to percieve a flat natural response due to our ears natural sensitivity. I just wanted to touch base on this, I dont know how you setup your own system, but if it was flat across the board its gotta be really bright sounding....... |
Frogman...Agreed: four full octives down from middle A at 440Hz results in 27.5Hz. How many composers have actually used this bottom key? Here is the question that I would like to see answered. My subwoofers are flat to 20 Hz, as verified by spectrum analysis using test signals and plainly evident by ear. The source electronics are capable of extreem LF output as evidenced by strong SW activity when playing certain recordings of organ music. A warped LP also keeps them busy. However, when playing almost all other classical music, some of which subjectively sounds as if there is lots of bass, the subwoofer cones scarcely move. This is verified, not only by listening close to them, but also by lightly touching the cones. Regarding the beat frequency subharmonics, these would be created in the listening room by proper reproduction of the fundamentals, and do not require reproduction of the subharmonic frequencies themselves. This is the same as in the performance venue, where the instruments do not directly generate the subharmonics. |
Let's get some facts straight. The lowest note of your typical grand piano is A 27.5 Hertz, so it could be argued that any speaker that does not go this low, and fairly accurately, is not a good candidate for "best for piano". To say that there isn't much information in this range, in classical music, is simply not true. If one understands the physics of music, one knows that in addition to the harmonics of musical tones, there exist difference tones. Difference tones are the tones that are produced when, for instance, two tones are sounded simultaeniously, and the difference of those two frequencies is perceived as a third tone. In theory, if music is written, and played on a piano for say, a chord with A-27.5 Hertz as the root, there would be a perceived tone of a frequency considerably below 27.5 Hertz. This would not be necessarily be heard as a seperate tone, but rather as richness and fullness in the overall sound. The existence of these tones, as well as upper harmonics, is one the things that gives music it's richness and complexity. Having said all that, I would say that in my experience, Quads come closest to capturing the tinbre of a real piano. How can that be possible, given the Quad's limited frequency response? Heck if I know! What it says to me is that there is still a whole lot that we don't understand about this business of record/playback; and that's fine by me. But timbre is only one aspect of reality in music playback. What about dynamics? In my experience, and I don't claim to have heard nearly all the great loudspeakers ever manufactured, Snell Type Aiii's with VTL Wotans got the dynamic impact of a grand piano fairly accurately. The timbre was not even close in accuracy to that of Quads, however. In absolute terms, neither got either timbre or dynamic impact close enough to the real thing to suspend disbelief. What it all says to me, is that the real thing is, thankfully, so rich and complex that electronics still have a long way to go before "accurate" record/playback is a possibility. I see that as a good thing. Ritteri, I don't know what not being able to tell which is the Yamaha vs. the Steinway, without prior familiarity proves. I can tell you that most experienced audiophiles, who can tell the difference between MIT and Nordost cabling, would have no trouble discerning the differences between a Yamaha and a Bosendorfer. The differences are actually much more apparent, IMO. There's nothing like the real thing. Good listening. |
Onhwy61...that is an extremely interesting article... besides the topic at hand, reproduction of piano tonally... it also struck me how incredibly difficult it must be to record a truly fine large orchestral recording...we are really at the mercy of the engineers' expertise and artistry as well as the musicians....I'm probably stating the obvious but when we complain of poor recording quality or inaccurate reproduction it makes you appreciate the know-how that goes into a fine recording....a great performer/musician sometimes does not always make for an impassioned recording.... thanks for that link....! |
This is a link to an article in the current Mix magazine regarding how engineers record piano. Of particular interest should be the comments by Tony Faulkner. |
Onhwy61...I don't do pop/rock so I guess I missed that 41 Hz string. I should have said that classical music has little content below 50 Hz. And I should have mentioned hall reverb along with studio air conditioning. I was focused on the music. Actually I do have an elaborate multi-subwoofer system that measures flat to 20 Hz, but it remains dormant most of the time. |
There's plenty of music and tons of sound below 50Hz. The lowest note on a 4 string bass guitar is 41Hz. The increasingly popular 5 string bass guitar is even lower. Synthesizers, a ubiquitous instrument in modern pop/rock, can go well down past 50Hz. Also below 50Hz is the sonic signature of mid to large sized recording venues. This information is essential for proper soundstaging. IMO, a speaker should be able to go down to around 32Hz to be considered fully bass capable. |
Khrys, for your information: Scintilla Review HiFi News: "... the response can be classed as very smooth. The upper section can be seen to be mildly resonant at 50Hz, the lower more dominant at 30Hz. As the curve shows, the output had not fallen below the median line by 20Hz, virtually subwoofer performance." I rest my case. Also this: the Scintilla is a unique speaker, even among the Apogee line. The mid ribbon and the tweeters are feather weight naked currugated aluminum ribbons. For each speaker, there are five feet of mid ribbon, and twenty feet of tweeter ribbon. The tweeter ribbons mechanically bleed off signals from the mid ribbon above 3kHz. It is the lightness of the ribbons and their simple crossover that play the greatest part in making the Scintilla the most natural speaker I have yet heard. The painstaking force focussed magnet array is another. A 700 square inch Kapton backed aluminum panel handles the Bass. The only reason such speakers are no longer made is because, according to one great speaker maker, "Every day for the Scintilla maker was Ground Hog Day." The Scintilla matches the Quad's mids, and far out reaches it in the treble and bass. Yes, Medieval music and piano sound exceptionally well on the Scintilla. The difference is the Scintilla can rock too. |
Khrys...You are quite correct about there being little in the way of music below about 50 Hz. With the exception of organ pipes and bass drums there is only turntable rumble and studio air conditioning sounds down there. If you operate a subwoofer with the grill removed this is obvious. 20 to 20,000 Hz is the accepted range of normal human hearing. Somehow this has become confused with the range of frequency needed for music reproduction. |
Muralman, there is not a speaker in the world today that cannot straight line to 20dB. 20 Hz is certainly another matter. You are confusing loudness with frequency response, which I find listeners of speakers with erratic impedance curves often do. For the record I am not a Quad owner but I feel they best meet the criteria for the subject of this thread which is reproduction of classical piano and Medieval music. As a classically trained pianist with a Steinway 'M' in my living room I am fairly familiar with this repetoire. The vast majority of this music falls easily between 55 and 3500 Hz where the Quads are peerless IMHO. With all due respect I really like your passion for your Scintillas but I wonder how you explain their demise while the Quad thrives. Also I am not aware of any recorded music that captures a 20 Hz tone so I would be appreciative if you could recommend one, especially one of classical piano or Medieval music and preferably above 20dB. |
I have a cousin who is a professional classical music performer, I lived in her house right next to her room for many years and she played her Steinway 10 hours a day if not more. Among all the speakers I have owned (over 20 pairs), Dynaudio Confidence 5 came closest to live piano. Not Wilson, not B & W, not ProAc, not even the new Dynaudio Confidence. In fact, Dynaudio Confidence 5 was so good in many area I had a tough time replacing it. Nothing really replaced it, I am merely getting a "different" sound for a change in taste. |
Frogman: Actually, yes a very skilled trained professional that plays the piano probably can tell the difference between different pianos. Just like a trained Violinist can tell the differences between Violins etc. What my point was, is that if I brought good ol' Eldertford into a room in which he didnt know what model piano was playing, he wouldnt be able to discern the difference. In other words, if I brought in a few different piano's,threw in a few quality high end full range speakers and had him sit down and listen to them(without seeing them)all without telling him which is which, he wouldnt be able to tell the difference between ANY of them. If you cant tell the difference between which is which, how can you make the claim that no speaker can sound as good or lifelike as a "live" piano?? Its almost impossible. Yes I will be running for President too! :P |
I tried to get back to my last post to amend it - too late. Now I'll have to take the heat from Quad owners. In my defense, I first want to confess the Quad is one of the greatest speakers ever. The thing that I love about the Scintilla is it equals the Quad in transparency and immediacy, but surpasses the Quad in extension. Since musical instruments emit a kaleidescope of frequencies, having the lows and the highs fully covered assist greatly in presenting a convincing picture of a musical event. On repro music and the real thing: That depends on how far the listener might be from the real thing. A lot of frequencies are absorbed, and dulled over a distance. There is no doubt, in my mind, a Grand, in the living room, will never be equaled by any playback system. In the case of a piano concert, from a distance, IMO there are systems that can fool the most musical savvy. At least, I have been fooled. My first experience with the Scintilla in '85 completely fooled me into thinking I was indeed listening to a real piano - in an adjacent studio. I had never seen the likes of the Scintilla. I took them for room dividers. They were being fed by a Goldmund table and Koetzu cartridge, Pre amp and amp unknown. I have a good sense what a real piano wounds like. We have a great heavy old turn of the century Piano upright. My wife plays beautifully, and I had attended numerous concerts by that time. Walking into that listening room, the piano was completely convincing. It sounded receded, some distance away, but real just the same. There was no one in the room to tell me otherwise. Not until I poked my head through an open doorway, where the piano diminished, did I understand the joke was on me. I promised my self I would own those speakers that sound like a real piano - as soon as I could afford the beasts to drive them. We live in a golden age of audio, with new digital formats coming out all the time. Radically new amp concepts are appearing, like the powerful Butler OTL, and the Acoustic Reality ICE powered amps. Inexpensive digital front ends are closing the sound quality gap with high end (really!). I sold the beasts I was first driving my Scintillas with, and now use the Acoustic Reality eAR 2 amp to power the Scintilla. No longer am I peering through a door to the real piano, I am now in row E. I had a Quad owner over the other day. I played a little Brickman "Autumn" music for him. He sat there with his eyes closed for a long while. Then he looked my way, and asked, "Wouldn't you agree you have recaptured the real thing, like you heard years ago?" Yes, I think I have. |
Ritteri, I hate to rain on YOUR parade dude, but IMO you have come on way too strong with your assertions. I'm thrilled that you feel so strongly about the merits of your chosen speakers, but... Are you suggesting that the human ear is not sensitive enough to tell the differences between two same model Yamaha's? Why then, don't many players, and not just professional musicians, simply order a piano over the phone and call it a day? Why bother with test playing them in showrooms, and agonizing over the sometimes subtle, but obvious differences. Are you suggesting that the human ear is not sensitive enough to consistently tell apart a Yamaha electric from a real grand? Or from Dunlavy IV's? Musicians that you know were not able to do this? Professional musicians?!?! (And I don't mean to suggest, at all, that only musicians can do this) Just how much money are you willing to wager? Email me privately if you would like to extend the challenge. Interesting, though, that you use Yamaha as a reference; of all the major piano brands, probably the least harmonically rich and complex. Anyway, I agree with you that there are a few speaker systems can come pretty close to reproducing the sound of a real piano. But the impact, the resonance of the wood, the complexity of harmonics and difference tones that even the best recording equipment has trouble capturing? Close? Sure, but no cigar. To suggest otherwise also means that playback equipment and amplification has reached a level of perfection that, I think, most here would agree is simply not the case. Speakers are, by definition, at the mercy of what came before them. As good as it may all be, it's all far from perfect. Now, about that challenge... Seriously, happy listening, and don't let this hobby lose it's mistery and challenge. When it starts to happen, I asure you that you're just not digging deep enough. Reproduced sound will never be able to sound like the real thing. Close maybe, but as they say... Support live music!! |
Khrs, You must have not tried many amps on your Duettas. I used a mere 150 watt amp on those "inefficient" speakers to very good results. Good enough to have Martin Logan owner and a Quad owner enjoy them. Only the Scintilla really fits the bill as grossly inefficient. Even so, when the Scintilla is matched with a can do amp, there are few full range speaker contenders. That precludes the Quad - not full range. My Scintilla does straight line down to 20db, and trails off to beyond. The mids and highs are as delicately articulated as any, while surpassing nearly all. |
There's an awful lot of entitlement and opinions flying around on this thread. My buddy, Duane, plays the skin flute (I think he also appraises them too) and I know for a fact if you blindfolded him in the room with his kickass home theatre setup that he couldn't tell the difference between a porno playing on his 6-channel and actual fellatio going on in the room. I know because he and his friends actually tried it once and they were all repeatedly stumped. Can't remember the components though I do remember he seemed to have enjoyed the challenge and recommended I try the same with my wife. Duane's an odd duck, he tells me he really sucks at playing the skin flute but he seems to have an awful lot of willing partners. Must be the kick-ass HT setup. Gotta git'me one of them! Marco |
Ritteri, your comments are, well, more opinion than fact until proven otherwise, so saith doubting Thomas. I would be interested in hearing more details on how you have arrived at your conclusions, these tests that you have done. I haven't heard an audio system yet properly produce all the things necessary to convey the realism of a live piano, any piano. Timbre is the first to bite the dust but Quads do come closest in my experience but lack in other areas, dynamics mostly, to be totally convincing. I sure would love to have you prove me wrong cause then I will have found my speaker! btw, I've heard some great recordings on both vinyl and CD on modified IRS 5 and Genesis 200 system which came closer than anything in ALL areas, but maybe I was fooling myself in believing what I heard wasn't real? ;^) |
Muralman, your enthusiasm for the Apogees is curious. I owned the Duettas for a time and found them exciting but ultimately unsatisfying. I suspect many others did too leading to the demise of the company. Their inefficiency and cruel impedance swings tended to bring out the worst aspects of most amps except those least suited to the nuance of piano and voice. I must confess that before your post on 11/14 I did not realize that the Apogees could all "straight line to 20db". For the Quads to match that feat you'd have to use the volume control but I think they get pretty close to 0dB with the mute button. |
You play the violin? So do I! Who made your voilin? Full size?Type of wood used? Who made the bow? Horse hair or synthetic? WHat kind of strings do you use? How do you store your Violin? Funny that you mentioned Violin's. I used to appraise them part time in Ma. to help pay my college tuition a few years back. It was a very enjoyable job, very laid back, but I learned alot about appraising,repairing, and even mfg. techniques used by old school string maker's in the area. Steinway Grand too eh? Really? Which model does your wife have? BTW, no opinions on my part,ALL facts until you can prove otherwise(and that isnt going to happen because I doubt you would ever be foolish enough to take on a bet you cant win). And you know how you can do that. Take me up on my offer so I can make you(your ears actually)look a bit foolish in person. Ill bet ANY amount of money you couldnt tell the difference between a Yamaha YDP223,a Yamaha U-1,a yamaha P-22,A Samic SIG50 a pair of Dunlavy SC-IVA's and Revel Salon's(I wont include the ML Prodigies because they have an easily identifiable harmonic distortion thats easy to pick up on, just like all planer speakers have)You would have 1 electric piano, 2 vertical's and one grand piano along with 2 pairs of full range competently designed speakers. With no visual que's you would NEVER be able to tell on a consistent basis if its "Live"(a real piano) or "memorex"(floor standers), let alone which model is playing(well maybe the electronic piano on a good day). If you feel otherwise, next time your in the Boston area, be sure to swing by. But in all honesty you should have read some of the other posts above a bit more carefully about being able to discern the differnces in piano harmonics and full range speaker without even knowing what the actual piano is supposed to sound like in the first place from the original recording. There is no opinion to this, just a plain simple fact. If you dont know what the piano sounded like exactly to begin with before being recorded, how can you tell if the recording or speaker is faithful in itself to the original track? You cant, just like you cant make the original statement you made. And that my friend IS FACT. |
Ritteri...How do you know what experience I have? Again you quote your conjectures as if they were facts. I play the violin. My wife plays our Steinway grand. I have screwed around with audio equipment since about 1953. My job involves the design and testing of complex military electronics. However, I don't claim that all this makes my ears any better than yours. Again I say: your opinions (like mine) are of interest and worthy of consideration, but should not be confused with facts. |
Eldartford: Your entitled to all of your opinions too, but opinions are just that, especially when people like you dont have any true "hands on experience" with doing true controlled audio tests on a daily basis. I do just by playing my piano and bass guitar. If you want to swing by and place a friendly wager(of cash)on how good your ears truely are. Feel free to email me directly. I would love to set up an audio test on fully controlled equipment and instruments where its garenteed that you will fail miserably, please be my guest. Ive yet to have one person walk through my door and do otherwise. And alot of these friends and aquaintences of mine are actual real musicians who actually have trained auditory senses unlike you. Playing an instrument and "listening" to instruments requires different skill levels. And its a fact that people who actually play instruments have a much higher degree of sensitivity to changes in amplitude and pitch, than people who just listen to musical instruments. Just like the FACT that if you went blind, over time your other bodily senses would try and compensate for the sensory loss by increasing sensitivity and awareness to our other forms of physical interaction with our environment. Or is this just more "opinion" of mine? If you think so, Ill start posting some articles that are nothing but proven facts on what the human body is truely capable of and some of the tricks that the mind can play on our senses. |
Hey, Ive heard em. A really "good" sounding speaker. ;) If I decide to sell my ML Prodigies I may pick up a used pair(along with a pair of Joseph Audio monitor's). I just dont like the inherant problems they have, and Im not just talking sonically either. Ribbon replacement is a necessary evil unfortunatly with them. And their performance isnt very linear either. |
Actually "close" is not subjective. Its fact. You nor about 99.9999% of the human population physically cant tell the difference between a speaker and a "live" piano if the speaker is of competent design along with the rest of the audio chain and the recording itself was also properly mastered.Hell if you were blindfolded and brought into an unknown room, of unknown dimensions and accoustic characteristics with unknown equipment in the test you would fail ANY audio test miserably on direct comparisons, so to make the earlier comment you made is absurd. If you could that would mean you would be able to tell the slight harmonic differences between 2 identical Yamaha piano's of the same model the first time you hear them. And the human ear just isnt that sensitive. Like I stated there are a few great speakers that can faithfully reproduce the sonics of the piano, or kazoo for that matter. Not perfectly, but enough so to where our ears can be the true limiting factor. Hell I was the piano the other day, my own Grandmother wasnt sure if it was me or the audio system making the music. Granted she doesnt have the best hearing at her age, but its just a point to bring out that musical reproduction by a pair of transducers properly set up is better than what alot of folks take for granted. |
Sorry to "rain" on your parade, but stating that no speaker comes close to reproducing the sound of a piano is also not true. I have played the piano myself for quite a few years and there are a number of speakers that can reproduce the sounds and overtones/harmonics of a piano with great accuracy, not perfectly, but very extremly close. |