Either the Revel Salon(best if budget is no concern) or Studio(budget conscious)would be 2 of the best choices. Its a well known fact either of these Revel speakers has midrange performance equal to the best elctrostatics along with incredible dynamics and bottom end definition which is needed to fully create proper piano harmonics somehting I have yet to hear any esl/planer speaker reproduce faithfully. I have owned a few planer/electrostatic speakers( including the ML Prodigies along with my Revel Salon's presently)and its a different kind of listening altogether. |
If someone is looking for absolute best piano sound, he is going to want timbral accuracy and solid dynamics. Timbral accuracy from 20hz up to 20khz. Revel Salon or Revel Studio. 2 of the best speakers for timbral accuracy and dynamics regardless of pricing. I have also owned a pair of Vandy 3A sig's, No Vandersteen should be listed in this persons category if this is the case. A different style of speaker altogether. |
Although people know Im bull headed about being a big fan of dynamics speakers, Planers,esls etc do come in handy in certain circumstances. For "easy listening" at low volumes I do have a place in my heart for my ML prodigies, though they are nothing compared to the Salon's.
Harbeth Studio 40's: Very nice! =) |
Sorry to "rain" on your parade, but stating that no speaker comes close to reproducing the sound of a piano is also not true. I have played the piano myself for quite a few years and there are a number of speakers that can reproduce the sounds and overtones/harmonics of a piano with great accuracy, not perfectly, but very extremly close. |
Actually "close" is not subjective. Its fact. You nor about 99.9999% of the human population physically cant tell the difference between a speaker and a "live" piano if the speaker is of competent design along with the rest of the audio chain and the recording itself was also properly mastered.Hell if you were blindfolded and brought into an unknown room, of unknown dimensions and accoustic characteristics with unknown equipment in the test you would fail ANY audio test miserably on direct comparisons, so to make the earlier comment you made is absurd. If you could that would mean you would be able to tell the slight harmonic differences between 2 identical Yamaha piano's of the same model the first time you hear them. And the human ear just isnt that sensitive. Like I stated there are a few great speakers that can faithfully reproduce the sonics of the piano, or kazoo for that matter. Not perfectly, but enough so to where our ears can be the true limiting factor.
Hell I was the piano the other day, my own Grandmother wasnt sure if it was me or the audio system making the music. Granted she doesnt have the best hearing at her age, but its just a point to bring out that musical reproduction by a pair of transducers properly set up is better than what alot of folks take for granted. |
Muralman: You and those damn ribbon speakers! LOL |
Hey, Ive heard em. A really "good" sounding speaker. ;) If I decide to sell my ML Prodigies I may pick up a used pair(along with a pair of Joseph Audio monitor's). I just dont like the inherant problems they have, and Im not just talking sonically either. Ribbon replacement is a necessary evil unfortunatly with them. And their performance isnt very linear either. |
A recording with a 20hz tone? Dr. Dre's Chronic Album for one. There are alot of popular rap albums with loads of synthesized bass notes that go well below 40hz, too many to list.
311's Music album is another great example. Its loaded with alot of harmonic sweeps from 20-40hz too that blend with the bass guitarists melodies. |
The logic is that you state the strings make the sound for a Violin and state that a metal dome tweeter most resembles a "string". But the strings dont make the sound on a Violin, the wooden body does. |
Eldartford: Your entitled to all of your opinions too, but opinions are just that, especially when people like you dont have any true "hands on experience" with doing true controlled audio tests on a daily basis. I do just by playing my piano and bass guitar.
If you want to swing by and place a friendly wager(of cash)on how good your ears truely are. Feel free to email me directly. I would love to set up an audio test on fully controlled equipment and instruments where its garenteed that you will fail miserably, please be my guest. Ive yet to have one person walk through my door and do otherwise. And alot of these friends and aquaintences of mine are actual real musicians who actually have trained auditory senses unlike you. Playing an instrument and "listening" to instruments requires different skill levels. And its a fact that people who actually play instruments have a much higher degree of sensitivity to changes in amplitude and pitch, than people who just listen to musical instruments.
Just like the FACT that if you went blind, over time your other bodily senses would try and compensate for the sensory loss by increasing sensitivity and awareness to our other forms of physical interaction with our environment. Or is this just more "opinion" of mine? If you think so, Ill start posting some articles that are nothing but proven facts on what the human body is truely capable of and some of the tricks that the mind can play on our senses. |
You play the violin? So do I! Who made your voilin? Full size?Type of wood used? Who made the bow? Horse hair or synthetic? WHat kind of strings do you use? How do you store your Violin?
Funny that you mentioned Violin's. I used to appraise them part time in Ma. to help pay my college tuition a few years back. It was a very enjoyable job, very laid back, but I learned alot about appraising,repairing, and even mfg. techniques used by old school string maker's in the area.
Steinway Grand too eh? Really? Which model does your wife have?
BTW, no opinions on my part,ALL facts until you can prove otherwise(and that isnt going to happen because I doubt you would ever be foolish enough to take on a bet you cant win). And you know how you can do that. Take me up on my offer so I can make you(your ears actually)look a bit foolish in person. Ill bet ANY amount of money you couldnt tell the difference between a Yamaha YDP223,a Yamaha U-1,a yamaha P-22,A Samic SIG50 a pair of Dunlavy SC-IVA's and Revel Salon's(I wont include the ML Prodigies because they have an easily identifiable harmonic distortion thats easy to pick up on, just like all planer speakers have)You would have 1 electric piano, 2 vertical's and one grand piano along with 2 pairs of full range competently designed speakers. With no visual que's you would NEVER be able to tell on a consistent basis if its "Live"(a real piano) or "memorex"(floor standers), let alone which model is playing(well maybe the electronic piano on a good day). If you feel otherwise, next time your in the Boston area, be sure to swing by.
But in all honesty you should have read some of the other posts above a bit more carefully about being able to discern the differnces in piano harmonics and full range speaker without even knowing what the actual piano is supposed to sound like in the first place from the original recording. There is no opinion to this, just a plain simple fact. If you dont know what the piano sounded like exactly to begin with before being recorded, how can you tell if the recording or speaker is faithful in itself to the original track? You cant, just like you cant make the original statement you made. And that my friend IS FACT. |
Frogman: Actually, yes a very skilled trained professional that plays the piano probably can tell the difference between different pianos. Just like a trained Violinist can tell the differences between Violins etc.
What my point was, is that if I brought good ol' Eldertford into a room in which he didnt know what model piano was playing, he wouldnt be able to discern the difference. In other words, if I brought in a few different piano's,threw in a few quality high end full range speakers and had him sit down and listen to them(without seeing them)all without telling him which is which, he wouldnt be able to tell the difference between ANY of them. If you cant tell the difference between which is which, how can you make the claim that no speaker can sound as good or lifelike as a "live" piano?? Its almost impossible.
Yes I will be running for President too! :P |
Eldartford: I saw that one coming! =P |
WHoa,whoa whoa, there isnt much music below 50hz???!?!?!?!!
I wont even comment here other than there is musical information(called HARMONICS)that goes below 20hz.
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Audioengr: I dont doubt you can tell the differences between em under normal circumstances, all have different tonal characteristics. But can you tell the differences under a controlled environment without visual ques and specific tunings? Id think twice before saying yes outright to this. |
Eldartford: Ever listen to alot of Jazz with Tenor Sax's,bass?How about a 20" kickdrum? How about big band with a few tuba's? Though I currently dont use subs(but will be soon)and have floor standers that are flat to 20hz, I feel Im still losing a bit of presense. Same holds true for the other end of the spectrum with other instruments.
Truth in the matter is that your subwoofers shouldnt be "flat" to 20hz. The last 2 octaves(20-80hz roughly) should be tuned to be about 3-4db higher up at least, while the top 2 octaves(5khz-20khz) should be roughly attenutated about the same amount for our ears to percieve a flat natural response due to our ears natural sensitivity. I just wanted to touch base on this, I dont know how you setup your own system, but if it was flat across the board its gotta be really bright sounding.......
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Quote by Eldertford:
"Ritteri...I'm glad that you endorse boosting 20-80 Hz by several dB"
Was that a sarcastic remark? =O
Do I ever deserve a sarcastic remark? =) lol!
Its true, a naturally sounding "flat" response to our ears looks like a gently rolling slope downward from 20hz to 20khz. Our ears are least sensitive to the bottom 2 octaves and most sensitive to the highest 2 octaves. |
Eldartford: I know, Im kidding............ |
Eldardtford: Cant go along with your theory on this one. Piano's have strings, so do Violins( I used to appraise and still play em), and what makes the sounds coming from the Violins is also the "wood" just like the soundboard of a piano. The bridge attached to the strings are coupled to the main body of the Violin. THe wood is what makes the sound resonations on the body of a violin, not the strings themselves. This being the case debunks your theory. I dont know of ANY transducer in the intricate shape of a violin. Besides its been widely accepted that dynamic drivers are best at reproducing the dynamics and harmonics of a piano. |
Muralman: Dipoles dont "color" the sound as much? You got some scientific evidence to back this up? Ive never heard this claim before. Dipoles have alot of drawbacks that easyily "color" the sound in their own way. Absolutely rediculous this claim.
Violins and pianos and all other instruments are designed to use the physical body to "color" and "tone" the sound yes. But speaker boxes are disgned in just the OPPOSITE way to be inert and to NOT RESONATE. Put your hand on a violin when it plays and you can feel the vibrations very distinctly,just like with a piano, it was designed that way. Put your hand on a competently designed speaker(Like my set of Revels)and you dont feel any resonation. Exactly the opposite in nature. |
Another theory of why your speakers reproduce "solo violin" better than most megabuck systems? MG 1.6's arent world beater speakers(or considered "megabuck speakers") to begin with so thats kind of a poor comparison. And a different kind of speaker altogether.
Care to define "most megabuck" systems?
Care to define "sound better"?
Thats a pretty bold statement to make. Especially of DM550's which arent known to be top tier speakers(or even top tier B&W products)so this is a bit opinionated. As I could easily state that Sonus Faber Concertos are best sounding for solo violins.Violins arent even considered hard sounds to reproduce as they have minimal harmonics and overtones. But I have heard many times people state that bright sounding speakers(or speakers that arent full range) accentuate violins since most of the tones are in the midrange and extend upward. But some of the older Strats and other vintage model violins need a full range speaker to reproduce rich harmonics that have deep full bodied sound since the violins own "personality" is developed slowly over time. Alot of violins that are made by hand sound very sterile for the first 5-10 years and mature as they age. To me a sterile sounding violin is not something I want to hear. BTW Im not dissing your speakers above. Ive heard em, they are nice sounding units when set up correctly as most B&W products are.
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Mixing driver materials doesnt mean that they cant convey an excellent near perfect sonic reproduction. Knowing material resonations and resonation points along with crossover designs help to isolate anomalies. Again part of a competent speaker design. B&W uses alot of different composite materials(as do alot of mfgs), and they are integrated very well in their design specifications.
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Yes I am a "cones in box" guy, but I also own a pair of ML Prodigy speakers too.
Maybe you need to read my comments again?
Ill repeat what I stated up top again:Pretty much any speaker can sound good reproducing a solo Violin since its not a difficult sound to reproduce and the majority of its audible spectrum lies in the midrange and above. So why you are surprised beats me. The DM 550 as I also stated(even though its not cutting edge transducer technology)above is a good solid sounding speaker. WHy the surprise?
As for me disparaging Maggies(Or Apogees or ML or whatever), I did no such thing. Planar/ribbons have their place and their positive traits no doubt. If they didnt I wouldnt own a pair myself. |
Tubegroover: You need to take a magical walk into a controlled studio environment in Norfolk Ct. for some comparisons that may startle you(as they did me 8 years ago). That week I learned more about what the human ear/brain can and cannot detect in that week than most people learn in their entire lifespan. |
Actually frogman: There are sounds that are easy to reproduce and ones that arent. Complex full spectral sounds are more difficult to reproduce than sounds with a narrow bandwidth any sound engineer will tell you that.
Here is a good starting link: http://www.linkwitzlab.com |
Nothing to do with the "last word", it has to do whats real fact. Its like saying a kazoo is as easy to build as a tenor saxaphone. Same basic principal. |
Riiiiiiiiight.................. |
