hi ait:
i auditioned the raptors, as my friend owns a pair.
did you have a problem with the upper midrange/lower treble ? i liked what the amps did with the bass, but i found the upper midrange/lower treble unpleasant. |
I thought I should add my 2 cents since I have just been through this experience. Let me be clear-this is ONLY my perspective, my experience, and what I have heard for myself and from others. I also should mention I see listening to music can be divided into two sets of perceptions. ONe is the OOH AHH category-it's so clean, great bass, it's so smooth, etc. Then the other category is the emotional category where you want to jump up and start playing air guitar or you get choked up if the mood is right on certain songs. I have found the two categories sometimes do not necessarily match. My goal is the second category. I want to be emotionally touched by the music. Having said that, here is what I have found.
Since 1980 I have owned HK, Adcom, NAD, Rotel, Plinius, and Bel Canto. I recently owned a Bel Canto EVo2, Gen 2 ingegrated amp for approximately three years. I recently sold it for financial reasons but thought it was a wonderful piece of gear, well built, nice ergonomics, etc. From a sonic standpoint it was almost perfect. Clear, good bass, holographic, fast, and sometimes a little thin or bright in the treble but I attributed that to my speakers. It seemed to avoid most of the pitfalls of solid state amps. I enjoyed every minute I had it and would probably still have it had I not run into money trouble. However, the longer I had it the more I noticed that something was missing. I could never put my finger on it.
After I sold the unit I had to use a little NAD 7020 receiver. As impressive at it is, it is not quite as clean or quite as powerful (darn close though) but I was stunned by the muscality, by the emotional impact it had. Then it hit me. What I was missing with the digital amp was the emotional connection to the music. I talked to the dealer that had sold me the unit and he was not surprised to hear this. He said the trend he is seeing is that people think the digital is wonderful at first. But over a period of time, for many it seems to take a couple years, people begin to realize something is missing. He lent out one of the units a couple years ago to a big shot audiophile. This individual had the unit for about two weeks. He brought it back in and made the statement, "It is great; it does nothing wrong; does everything almost perfectly and I hate it." He couldn't explain why. A salesman at a well-known high end distributor who carried these items told me over the phone that he had spent a great deal of time listening to the Bel Canto and his feeling was it did everything well but the 'soul' was stripped from the music.
Once again, this is only my experience living with this type of amp for the last three years and what I have heard from others. As I said, I probably would still have it but knowing what I know now, I am not sure how long I would have kept it. I guess it is going to affect everybody differently and like everything else in audio, it is all in what you like, not what anybody else likes. |
Not at all Mrtennis - I am thrilled with the Gilmore sound. It may be that my source, preamp, cables and room just sound better with the Gilmore amp, or it may be that my hearing (and my wife's as well) just favor the Gilmore sound. I find them to sound very detailed yet smooth at the same time. YMMV. |
Geph0007, Bel Canto is NOT "digital". You're welcome to prefer your NAD, but it's not because of any digital conversion happening in the Bel Canto. Salesmen use such terms to sell tubes and other products that they have on hand.
Dave |
Geph0007,
I have a NAD 7020 I use as a spare in my systems when needed.
Its a very gutsy little beast indeed, and it has served well in a reserve role when called on over the years, but the sound is quite rough around the edges compared to most newer and even a number of older amps that I have had opportunity to compare it to over the years. |
geph0007 good write up,it is hard to pin down,whats not hard to pin down is that the brain and ears will surely tell you something is wrong,and they cant be fooled. |
Class D amps, ones that are superbly designed, can approach reality given the right system gear. I can show you, Coffeey, how I can make my, "Amps," sound edgy, fuzzy, bright, and/or distorted just by inserting a regular CD player, off the shelf wires at any price, stock power cord, or a noisy and badly matched preamp. |
Coffeey, as you well know, the Bel Canto EVo2, Gen 2 in question is approx 3 or 4 generations old. . . it does not even faintly represent what best of breed class D amps can deliver today. Have you considered getting a fresher perspective than the cherished solace of old bad memories? |
Very interesting information with all the different thoughts and out comes.
Aprox. 2 years ago I bought and demoed numerous class "D" amps and/or which some refer to as switching amps.
What I found interesting when I read what Geph0007 had to say in general, putting aside the gear that was made reference to because that totally differs from what I listened to including owning.
What did come across was these specific amps ("D") are in one category referring to saying it's so clean, great bass, it's so smooth, etc. Then there is the other category which is "emotional where you want to jump up and start playing air guitar or you get choked up if the mood is right on certain songs."
I have to say from my experience I agree and that is what I was missing when I did my demoing but as we all know lots had happened since then (improvements)and I always keep an open mind so that is why I still have interest.
I have this year done some more evaluations comparing and here are a couple situations and what my thoughts were, these are my thoughts only!
System;
Jeff Rowland Continuum 500 integrated amplifier paired up with Neeper speakers, JM-LAB Alto Utopia Be speakers and Sonus Faber Amati Anniversario speakers. Cables used were Transparent and source AR REF7 cd red book, Esoteric with clock and DCS stac. Material all cd
I listened changing only the speakers and sources, same day and all gear well broken-in.
The JRDG was in the rack, on the floor was a Audio Research REF110 and HD220 both stereo pces and there was a REF3 pre also in the rack.
I spent some time listening to the different pcs. in different configurations with the JRDG first. I actually went with the intentions of buying the JRDG 500, the Rowland sounded really nice while I was evaluating and mentally going through the Audiophile check list, in my mind it was truly doing a spectacular job but that's it.
I played the same pces of music that I'm very familiar repeditively. I then switched over to the ARC amps and I discovered immediately what I was missing and it was exactly what Geph0007 said; which is the emotional aspect where you want to jump up and start playing air guitar or you get choked up if the mood is right on certain songs.
I just actually forgot all about the electronics and melted away being drawn into the music emotionally. It really reminds me of two years ago and how I felt also when I demoed "D" class amps for aprox. 8 months and then installed PASS X600.5 mono blocks.
So my latest exspearince, JRDG 312 stereo amp paired up with a ARC REF3 pre., Transparent cables and same sources again but with the new JM-LAB Scala speakers. First time I ever heard these speakers and the 312. Very nice experience indeed and much different than my past with the JRDG 500 and all "D" class. This set-up offered that emotion toe tapping experience that is very important to me that was lacking so far with all other "D" class amps that I have heard.
Still more auditioning to come as I now need to compare, ARC HD220 and REF 110 and Boulder with same speakers and electronics, should be interesting.
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Dev,
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that each case that appealed to you involved tube amplification. Also, you liked the Rowland Class D amp with the ARC tube pre.
I suspect that the "toe tapping" sound you like is more a result of the tubes, even if just in the pre, more so than as a result of using a Class D power amp.
Maybe a tube pre-amp and Class D power amp is the way to go, particularly with certain speakers that present more difficult loads to drive where Class D's that double down to 4 and even 2 ohms hold a distinct advantage over tubes for maintaining tonal balance with the low end.
I recently added the ARC sp-16 tube pre to my system running a well regarded SS amp needed to drive my difficult large Ohm Walsh 5 speaks and the toe tapping factor increased significantly.
I would consider a good Class D in my current setup in a heartbeat if I felt I really needed more power than the 120w/ch Musical Fidelity A3CR amp I currently use.
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Hi Mapman,
I have heard my same amps used with a tube preamp, and the sound was just what many may want. It was very smooth, clean, and musical.
I prefer no tubes in the preamp, as long as that preamp is the H2O Fire. A 6moons review is in the future. This is an abnormally squeaky clean solid state preamp.
This is not to say my system doesn't benefit from tubes. I have mine in my non sampling DAC. The beauty of tubes and NOS carry through unsullied by the preamp. The advantage to my liking is the sound is more lively and detailed with the Fire aboard rather than a tube amp. |
Hi Mapman,
Not exactly because in the past that 8 month spell with the "D" class amps I was actually using a tube pre, ARC REF3, Supratec Sav., VTL 7.5 and one of the amps where the Jeff Rowland 501's which I believe is the amp section of the 500 integrate.
The class "D" is very interesting and there are a handful that I have not heard and would like to do so but I will say to date the Jeff Rowland 312 is my fav. for this type of amplification.
Regarding amps I seem to actually prefer tube, just have not found that magical match for my current MBL's. Not that I have really heard allot either because I really had purchased the Cat JL3 thinking that would be it but unfortunately it wasn't do to other issues but the Joule is on my radar and will be listening to the exact system Dob heard and raved about. |
Maybe I missed something. Are you ( Dcstp) saying the Bel Canto with the Tripath module is not digital???? Keith |
The "D" in class D does not stand for digital. It's simply a sequencing convenience. . . A, B, [C], D. . . do not ask me where class C devices are, I have no idea. Recent Bel Canto amps have abandoned Tripath modules. . . . Bel Canto is now using ICEpower modules: ASP500 in the Ref 500 and ASP 1000 in the Ref 1000 Mk.2. Like with any other basic module/tube, the sound of a class D amp depends as much on what the designer is capable of harnessing from the strengths of underlying devices, as much as on the raw 'sound' of the device itself. . . . which by the way, -- for all it matters -- remains analog. |
Geph0007 asked:
"Maybe I missed something. Are you ( Dcstp) saying the Bel Canto with the Tripath module is not digital???? "
I'm saying that Ref 500 and 1000 are NOT digital. Most class D is not.
PS Audio are screwing aroudn with putting a DAC inside a chassis with a Class D amp. The DAC, of course, would be digital, but the amplifier is not.
Tripath was not Class D. I've seen it describe as Class-T, really. I think of it as a hybrid system that may combine power switching with some sort of digital/analog conversion, but I, admittedly, never fully understood what it was doing in the digital mode. There's probably a good reason that they abandoned Tripath.
Dave |
See my review of the Bel Canto Ref 1000 Mk.2 monoblock amplifier just posted on issue No. 43 of Positive Feedback Online. Yes, IMO, this is an example of an excellent and very musical high power amplifier at a Real World price, regardless of underlying technology.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/bel_canto_ref1000.htm |
