No deHavilland lover is going to like Spectron, nor vice versa, so save your time Spencer.
Dave |
There's nothing cheap about Rowland, Spectron and a few others. BTW, these are not "digital" amplifiers, they are merely Class D.
The people that like these amps tend to like neutral, unstrained, clear sound. They demand very fine source components. If you want some added warmth to offset some glare from your CDP or cables, then you probably need to look eslewhere. Some people just want warms sounds and they should also look elsewhere.
Dave |
B&O and their government spent a ton of money developing ICEPower. That gets you a certain base level of acceptable performance. Spectron, Rowland, Bel Canto and others enhance the base modules and move you into high fidelity. How high is debatable, but I happen to think that it's true high fidelity.
There'll always be people that prefer SET over anything else. There'll also be plenty of people that prefer high end applications of ICEPower over SET, Class A or MOSFET. There's room for all of us and, thankfully, plenty of choices for all of us.
I believe that you should pick the best speaker that you can afford, that is suited to your room, next buy the best sources that you can afford and finally match it up with an amplifier that works well with you speakers. The speaker choice is certainly a personal preference, then, by default, most of the other choices become personal preference. If I don't want tubes in my DAC, that shouldn't prevent someone else from seeking a tube-DAC.
There's nothing hard and fast about Class D and, ultimately, we need to listen for ourselves and chose according to our personal prejudice and desires.
Dave |
Dev, I've heard the Spectrons and the new Bel Canto and think that they deserve serious consideration. I'm feeling no need to replace my Continuum 500 and I'm finding it's 1000 watts into 4 ohms and very refined pre-amp section up to the task of driving my speakers and managing my system.
Running the Spectrons bridged as mono-blocks yields astonishing power without sacrificing anything in detail and refinement.
I have not heard the Spectron or Bel Cantos in my system, but only in show systems, but I heard enough to tell me that they're making contenders for serious system.
The cosmetics of the Rowland are amongst the best for my taste. Those cosmetics are backed up with solid, close tolerance chassis design that's more than a pretty face. IMHO, you can't go wrong with Rowland, unless you're expecting your amp or pre-amp to warm up the sound. If you like neutral, transparent and dynamic, then you need to look at Rowland.
Dave |
Muralman1 said:
"Every time someone brings over a glorified digital filtered digital source, the sound closes up, harmonics are lost, proper gradual decay becomes severely truncated."
I'm not understanding what type of source you refer to. I see that you have a PS Audio Lambda, so you're not anti digital. (I loved my Lambda until the nylon gears on the drawer stripped after many years of usage). Could you give an example of a source that you're speaking of?
I'm using a Playback Designs MPS-5 SACD player with my Rowland with fantastic results. Of course, there are many differences between PS and Rowland (beside the 60-miles between their shops), so they're going to potentially react differently to same sources.
I DO agree that you have to be careful with ICs, PCs and speaker cables with Class D and you need to be aware of RFI and EMI when placing components around these devices. Chassis design is critical to minimize interaction, and some Class D amps are more prone to interaction issues than others.
Dave |
Muralman1 said:
"Insulated cables hiss. Non insulated cables don't."
You mean, in your system, I'm certain.
Dave |
Muralman1 said:
"Every over and up sampling player sucks the stage both horizontally and
vertically. Also, all harmonics vanish. The difference is striking. I have had a
Modright tubed Sony SACD here, and with the same negative results.
The tubes do no good in resurrecting the SACD's performance. The digital
filter damages the tube's good qualities."
Thanks for clarifying. Ok, I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. My Playback Designs MPS-5 plays RBCD or SACDs wonderfully while using an upsampling scheme. Many people have now heard the PD and consistantly consider it one of the top players available.
When tubes are suggested to address a digital source problem, I grow suspicious. Generally, I think that tube lovers should stick with all-tube pre/power systems; however, mixing a tube pre with SS power amps, including Class D, can work very well. There's usually a reason that people turn toward tubes and, IME, it's often to offset a weakness in their sources.
Dave |
I can't find what your pre is Dev.
If you'd be willing to forgo the pre, I'm thinking that you should seriously consider the Rowland Continuum 500, which gives you a great pre, power factor correction and most of the circuit of the 312, all for much less than the cost of a Capri/501 monos/PFC combination.
If you want to stay with your pre, then consider the 501s PLUS Power Factor Correction. Try to run everything balanced and see what you think. With luck you can find some used 501s here on A'gon and add PFC.
Few of us need the power of the mono Spectrons, but, if you do, there's very few substitutes right now. My experience with the Continuum shows me that huge reserves of power is a good thing, at least when the power is clean, transparent and non-punitive (as with some older SS amps in other classes).
Dave |
Ok, the AR Ref3 will be a good match for 501s. You might read Guidocorona's review of the Rowland Capri, where he moved from the Ref3.
PFC is an interface with the mains that Rowland uses to present an even load to the mains and convert the AC line to 380 Volt DC for the amps. It's designed for certain recent Rowland models, including the 501s. It's built into the 312 and the Continuum 500, but can be had as an add-on to the most other current Rowland products. (The PFC units that Rowland uses were originally developed for commercial cell-tower equipment by cell phone companies).
You need to talk some directly with Guido. I have no direct Ref3 experience, but he can discuss the pros and cons of moving away from the Ref3 to Rowland, since he made that move it.
Dave |
Cardas Golden Ref works well with Rowland, giving no "hiss". I don't use it, but I've heard it in Rowland systems a lot. There could be a number of reasons for the differences noted. For instance, not all Class D has managed RFI and EMI as carefully as Rowland and some others. Chassis design for optimal isolation and ground management is critical with Class D.
Dave |
Saranwrap of course. Look at his system.
Ribbons can actually act as antennas. He's concerned with insulation (rightfully) yet uses antenna for speaker cables in an strong RFI/EMI environment.
He may make it work, but it will likely be a reactive system, particularly to digital devices, which he has stated that it is.
Dave |
Muralman1, I can only comment on the Rowland Cardas GR combination as working very, very well, with no hiss. I don't know what's wrong with your PS Audio that would cause a hiss. On the Rowland I've only heard it in balanced mode with the Cardas. There's similar no issues with Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval ICs, which I use, in balanced mode, but I've tried in RCA configuration with no issue.
Oh, the longest Cardas GR that I've heard is around 6-feet. You say yours are "long", how long? (I use 20" Klotz XLRs all the time as condenser mic cables and have no issues. I'll have to throw a pair into the audio system to see what happens).
Dave |
Dev, there's no sonic penalty for more power with Rowland. What speakers are you driving and how sensitive are they? 500/800 watts into 8/4 ohms may seem like overkill, but with speakers that need damping and control it's magical. Still, watts cost money.
Dave |
Muralman1, we're just talking about Class D, RFI/EMI and cables, so why should your leg hurt?
Given your choice of antenna for speaker cables, you're wise to keep them short and away from the digital sources. B&O doesn't do a particularly great job of minimizing RFI/EMI, but your H2O likely makes up for that. Almost certainly your CDP and DAC are leaking RFI, so balanced ICs are wise in almost every system, particularly those with relatively long IC runs, like yours.
"Reactive" because you stated a high sensitivity to insulation on cabling.
I generally agree with everything you say, but don't find your system's sensitivity to cable insulation to be universal to Class D, that's all.
Dave |
Well said Muralman1. Ultimately, the owner's satisfaction is most important and you've apparently acheived that.
Dave |
Well, with a name like "Rafael" (the great Italian artist), we'll know that you're more into interpretation than "accuracy." There's nothing wrong with that, BUT, I predict, if you love Atma, then you'll not be happy with Spectron or Rowland.
I'm from the other school, but I know where you're coming from.
Dave |
Dev asked:
"Dcstep, do you feel that the class "D" gear Rowland and Spectron are lacking in offering how Dob put it "the painting by TALANTED artist which can look into the soul of individual."
What are your thoughts of other Rowland gear compared them directly to their class "D" product we are specifically talking about. Do you prefer it over all over other Rowland products and if so why."
I don't consider the Rowland or Spectron "lacking" in anything. When your sources are excellent, then the musical experience will all the soul that could be desired. Some audiophiles prefer a slightly euphonic delivery. As a musician, I prefer accuracy, which excludes unrealistic hardness or edge.
If you're asking me to compare Rowland to Spectron, I can't say anything further than they're both excellent and of the same philosophy. I've heard them in different systems and liked them both very much. Both are transparent and clear with effortless dynamic and no sonic signature. I have no temptation to move to Spectron, but if I needed more clean, accurate power, then I'd look at the Spectron first.
I'm not sure that I understand the second part of your question. I'm only familiar with Rowland's more recent products, like the Continuum 500, 312, Capri, Critereon, 501, 201 and 102. I've read where some thought that older Rowland products had a slightly "warm" delivery. That's not true of the current crop, IMHO.
Dave |
Rafael, you seemed to have confirmed my suspicions. ;-)
Dave |
Coffeey, why would anyone dig up a copy HiFi Plus to see how class D sounds? Listen for youself and listen to the latest generation. Those guys are way behind the curve.
If you don't trust your own ears, then it won't matter what you buy or listen to, will it?
Dave |
Which Bel Canto Coffeey? Even in an otherwise limiting system at this year's RMAF I could hear a lot of promise. Were you comparing to your Counterpoint? Of course Bel Canto isn't near the top of the ICEPower heap, but it shouldn't make your skin crawl.
If your skin crawled with the latest Bel Canto, then I expect that there was something wrong with the system.
What aspects made your skin crawl? That's a pretty broad dismissal, said with a certain degree of authority that would imply that you know what you're talking about, so why not share some details? Maybe, as little as listing the other system components and where the audition took place. Were there any comparisons made? Were the components in balanced mode?
I haven't heard the Red Dragon, but I'd worry about the wooden chassis and sheet metal chassis not delivering the isolation from EMI and RFI that ICEPower needs. Those are pretty expensive units in a very basic looking chassis.
Dave |
Geph0007, Bel Canto is NOT "digital". You're welcome to prefer your NAD, but it's not because of any digital conversion happening in the Bel Canto. Salesmen use such terms to sell tubes and other products that they have on hand.
Dave |
Geph0007 asked:
"Maybe I missed something. Are you ( Dcstp) saying the Bel Canto with the Tripath module is not digital???? "
I'm saying that Ref 500 and 1000 are NOT digital. Most class D is not.
PS Audio are screwing aroudn with putting a DAC inside a chassis with a Class D amp. The DAC, of course, would be digital, but the amplifier is not.
Tripath was not Class D. I've seen it describe as Class-T, really. I think of it as a hybrid system that may combine power switching with some sort of digital/analog conversion, but I, admittedly, never fully understood what it was doing in the digital mode. There's probably a good reason that they abandoned Tripath.
Dave |
