Denf, Yes you have wasted at least the last three years, but it is never too late to separate yourself from the crutch-fix comparing that goes on. And start enjoying your system, finally. I bet these guys compare brands of regular gas when the better stuff is less than a foot away! I guess if you live in an apt. or something you have no choice in how to properly feed your gear. Pat yourself on the back, then start all over with speaker position etc.. Enjoy, Z. |
Unfortunately, there are those of us who cannot go to dedicated lines [apartment complexes]. So while I'm unfamiliar with the improvements that dedicated lines are reported to make, I can assure you that power conditioners can make a huge sonic improvement when D.L.'s are not an option. If you are especially lucky, you won't have any motors, halogen, or fluorescent lights on the same circuit as your audio rig. And if you're really lucky, you can shut down EVERTHING else on your stereo's circuit, making what is essentially a dedicated line. |
For the benefit of those without dedicated AC line wall outlets, one can use one of the new age power strips which do not current limit, and usually help non-dedicated AC lines to better power components, judging by the audible results rather than by a theory of what should be.
One of these is the Mapleshade Records top of the line power strip which worked in one of my tube systems, even helping the clarity, transient speed, and slam of a Cary SLA-70Sig amp with its old fashioned fixed power cord.
In another system, I plugged a different tube amp directly into a non-dedicated AC wall outlet using the comparable Mapleshade Records single component power cord to improve an Aronov LS-960I tube integrated. Here, the front end digital components are plugged into an older model (non-current limiting) Quantum power strip, the Quantum Octave, which is plugged into a non-dedicated AC wall outlet
Obviously, what is heard depends on the AC quality, and on the particular components, but few of us have dedicated AC lines for our system(s), and so this represents a middle path for those who have an interest in better performance on their same old AC lines. |
No need to be confused. Whenever I speak of line conditioning as being absolutely foundational to any system worth listening to, I always qualify that by including the word 'proper' with line conditioning.
So why include the word proper? Simply because way too many people think any line conditioning must be better than none and you have just demonstrated that simply is not the case.
In fact, I've witnessed this same performance gain at a friend's house when we removed his ps audio 300 from his APL-modified Denon 3910 and plugging it straight into the wall.
If you want line conditioners that actually benefit the sonics without inducing their own harm, then just like any other component, you must do your homework. Regardless of how many people are buying a given product.
With regard to dedicated circuits/lines, they actually have little/nothing to do with proper line conditioning.
Dedicated circuits/lines are to help isolate your components from appliance and dimmer noises from within the home, but so will proper line conditioning
Moreover, 'proper' line conditioning should include bi-directional filtering in order to prevent the bi-directional digital noise generated by a cdp/dac from infecting other components.
But in short, 'proper' line conditioning should suffice for all of your AC filtering needs.
On the other hand, dedicated circuits/lines ultimately should only benefit your amplifiers by ensuring they have enough juice to properly reproduce the very dynamic loud/complex musical passages. And in my experience with installing dedicated circuits/lines the macro-dynamic improvements were be tremendous. Dedicated circuits/lines should be installed for all but the smallest current drawing amps.
-IMO |
I had the dedicated lines FIRST, and also a Tice Power Block 3, which made a positive difference compared to running my amps into the wall (which surprised my friend who built the amps). Bought the P300 last and am running my front end gear into it because I CAN tell a difference and it's a substantial one. Obviously, YMMV. Dave |
I would like to reactivate this thread now that a little time has passed to perhaps get some new feedback. I am still using my P300, but ONLY for my BAT VK3i preamp (I am still running my CD player "direct" to the wall, which again is a isolated dedicated line).
My question still remains - those of you with dedicated AC lines - what is your experience with using power conditioners? Which application seems to bring the most improvement? Amps, preamps, CDP, etc? Also --- what are some of the "hot" brands of conditioners, that don't cost over $2k retail?
Thanks! |
i was most surprised when a silver circle PP1 v 3.0 made an audible / drastic improvement in line noise on source gear, esp given that i have dedicated lines w/ twisted romex, and its only 8ft of romex b/w breaker and AC outlet.
point being: you cannot know in advance.
the more resolving your system, the bigger the improvement. but dedicated lines are the best bang for the $.
rhyno |
I installed a dedicated line for my system, then added the Jon Rische AC line filters to clean/quiet the power. http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/surge.htm One for the front-end and one at the power amps. |
The owner of a very high-end audio manufacturer (which shall remain nameless) recently asked me to evaluate their new single component power conditioning devise. My audio system is plugged into 4 dedicated 20 AMP lines, so power issues never crop up. When I placed this new product in front of the CD player, the result was awful! It literally sucked the life out of the music. As suggested in earlier posts, power conditioners are useful ONLY when needed.
Ken |
Denf, regarding: I would like to reactivate this thread now that a little time has passed to perhaps get some new feedback. I am still using my P300, but ONLY for my BAT VK3i preamp (I am still running my CD player "direct" to the wall, which again is a isolated dedicated line).
My question still remains - those of you with dedicated AC lines - what is your experience with using power conditioners? Which application seems to bring the most improvement? Amps, preamps, CDP, etc? Also --- what are some of the "hot" brands of conditioners, that don't cost over $2k retail? This has been answered on my behalf by Kgproperties when he said: When I placed this new product in front of the CD player, the result was awful! It literally sucked the life out of the music. As suggested in earlier posts, power conditioners are useful ONLY when needed. I've been posting similar responses to this question since I joined Audiogon in 1999. Only passive devices such as Quiet Lines do any good without harming the sound. Quiet lines are just caps that scrape off a tiny amount of noise. Not a big improvement but also not big cost :^). Quiet lines represent the limit of what I'm willing to introduce into my electrical system. If you have a big problem, they are not going to "fix" it. |
Good thread. I have a dedicated 20A line for my amp and another for my preamp+front end. Porter Ports on each line (thanks Albert-excellent product.)
Initially, I tried various combinations of plugging my amp, preamp, and front end into an ExactPower EP-15A voltage regulator/conditioner. The system sounded better than with no conditioner, yet constrained. So, I tried a Nordost Thor passive unit. With the passive unit, the system really opened up. There was more life.
I now plug the amp straight into the wall; use the Thor for the preamp and front end; and have relegated my Exactpower to another circuit for video components, where it noticeably improves the video quality of my plasma. Downside is the Thor's expensive. There are less expensive options. |
The Thor you mention sounds interesting.
The problems you previously had, loss of dynamics and micro detail is exactly my complaint with all power conditioners.
Perhaps the Thor is a better mousetrap, an improved version of Quiet Lines. |
Denf, I stand by my previous statement, one must do their homework regarding any component but particularly with line conditioners.
For some reason, as I and others seem to have indicated, on average there seems to be far more poorly designed line conditioners than perhaps any other component. That's why I always use the term 'proper' when discussing line conditioners.
Far too many times have I witnessed even the most popular brands (which often times are never the best) strip away the dynamics and/or induce their own sonic harm and/or do nothing.
Currently I'm using two 15 amp dedicated lines and one 20 amp dedicated line and three Foundation Research LC-100 dedicated and passive and bi-directional filtering line conditioners. These line conditioners are a bit costly at $3500 each and outweigh the cost of my Nuforce SE amps several times over, but a man's gotta' do what a man's gotta' do. :)
Personally, I've been using what I consider fabulous line conditioners for the last 5 years and I cannot imagine listening to any system without 'proper' line conditioning. It is that foundational when done right.
-IMO |
I had a dedicated 20 amp line put in last year. I then bought a used PS Audio P-300. I have my Aragon amp and the Power Plant plugged in the dedicated line. My transport, dac, and pre-amp are plugged in the PS Audio. I noticed a slight improvement with the dedicated line and then further improvement with the PS Audio. The 300 is not advertised as a power conditioner but as a power plant, it stabilizes and perfects the sin wave. I love mine and am thinking about getting it modified, an option I just stumbled across on the PS website. These posts are worrying me though I had and have no option of extra lines to plug my stuff in to. Before all my gear now plugged in the 300 were plugged in a power strip. |
