FYI, on the ps-audio chat-room in Audio-asylum Paul says they are coming out with a 20 amp version which they recommend for 200 watt+ amps. Should be better for the dynamics. |
Thanks Sedond, no deletion yet ! |
hi no-money, dunno if a-gon won't let me post - le'see if this gets deleted...;~) basically, paul admitted there were problems, & ewe should contact him if ya have one... |
Hey Doug, what where the problems they deleted? If you would e-mail me the response if A'gon won't let you post it. PS-300 is likely in my future, but I really want to protect the amp. If PS is fixing this I would like to try it as it is not that expensive. Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer. |
i asked before, & ewe dint respond, so i will try again: WHY DIDJA DELETE PAUL MCGOWAN'S POST REFERENCING PROBLEMS PS-AUDIO HAS BEEN HAVING W/THE ULTIMATE OUTLET??? this was useful info, who cares if he *is* the owner of the company - ackshully, it makes the info all the more useful!!! perhaps some of your power-conditioner-selling adwertisers complained??? dug seed in |
hey, drubin, no problem about me worrying about whether or not ewe were placing me in *that* category - i was asking it in more of a rhetorical fashion - i'm pretty secure in where i stand on the subjective vs objective issue - feet firmly planted in *both* camps! ;~) regards, doug s. |
Okay, maybe I gave the guy too much benefit of the doubt. And Doug, I certainly did not have you in mind. I do think there is sometimes too much knee-jerk, often hostile rejection of any challenges to our subjectivist observations. And I hate to see any Audiogon member ganged up on and ridiculed. That's the easy way out for the insecure and closed-minded. (Again, not singling anyone out in particular). Dan. |
The Devil DOES live! ...His name is Stevemj and when a BAD Audiogoner dies he’s sent to Radioshack ...There in the polyester pit of hell is Stevemj (clad in a green velvet tuxedeo and sporting SPL & multi-meters) plays nothing but baddly recorded CD's on one brand "rack" systems through 18 gauge zip cord - for ALL eternity! hehehehe |
It should be pointed out that science never 'proves' anything. Scientists do not seek the truth, but rather an accurate model. Scientific measurements do not prove or disprove, they only support or do not support the model. |
Respectfully Drubin; go back and read Stevemj's thread on "Speaker Wire is it Science or Psychology?", posted 3/7/01. IMO it is pretty inflammatory right from the start. That's not the thread (and posts) of a person with an open mind, rather it is strongly espousing scientific dogma. He (Steve) asks us to explain our positions re selection of "wires" without using any technical terminology??? I agree with much of yours, Duggs, and Jerie's posts above. I want to have feet planted squarely in both the objective and subjective camps regarding "wires and music". Cheers. Craig. |
Drubin: I don't believe threatening has anything to do with Stevemj posts and certainly no one must keep an open mind, though it would be nice for all concerned. Unfortunately, labeling people as "weakminded" or one's actions "insanity" is usually enough to provoke an attack and is certainly forth coming if you have little foundation within your argument. Moreover, unfortunately most people who advocate the use of standard power cords, interconnects and cables usually have NEVER TRIED anything else and rely solely on their science theory to carry the day.
As I've said before, you've got to get up pretty early in the morning to pull the wool over the ears of the member of this site. Science theory and a buck will get you a bus ride across town, but it tends to play like a broken CD here, wearing the patience and stretching the tolerance of normally good natured, openly caring individuals. Certainly, I believe Stevemj and everyone else who contributes to this site has the best intentions. Just remember that the road to Radio Shack is paved with the good intentions of statistically correct Optimus gear. Thanks to all for your patience. -Jerie |
drubin, i hope yure not placing *me* in that category of close-minded audiophiles, cuz i fully agree w/yer definitions of open-mindedness. (but, yudging by the negative feedback i got from my prewious post, perhaps some folks *do* feel i'm a bit close-minded. oh well...). one of the reasons i like s'phile is, while they may have many faults, they do subjective reviewing w/extremely thorough measurements. i'm all *for* scientific inwestigation, it's yust that i won't dismiss out-of-hand something that has yet to be werified by measurements - isle use my ears & decide for myself. however, regarding your assessment of stevemj, i must humbly beg to disagree. he seems to be close-minded to sonic improvements that cannot be scientifically werified. in fact, regarding coating cd's w/a green edge, he even disputes this when there *is* some scientific evidence supporting its efficacy! personally, i gave up coating my cd's edges w/green, as it made no difference to *my* ears. but i don't dispute those who say they hear a difference. who knows, mebbe isle give it another whirl today - it *is* st. paddy's day... ;~) regards, doug s. |
The vitriol heaped upon stevemj tells me, more than anything else,that,far from having the open minds they proclaim to have, some audiophiles around here are quite closed minded. If your minds are open to hearing musically important differences when "science" and "reason" say they should not exist (and I'm fully in that camp with you), then you must also keep an open mind to the possibility that other factors and influences may sometimes contribute to your conclusions. As I read what stevemj has written, that's all he is saying. That you be critical thinkers. Don't we all aspire to that? Why is it so threatening? -Dan |
It seems like every six weeks or so some self proclaimed Wizard of Science from the Radio Shack Institute of Enlightened Electrons stumbles into the forums intent on saving us from our delusional pursuit of procuring "fancy" power cords, line conditioners or audio cables. Our irretrievably compulsive need to convince ourselves, and others, that we hear differences that we simply can not hear is absurd. Stop this practice immediately! Stevemj knows the way. He is trying to help us all and we have reduced him to babbling about submarines and birds and all kinds of other cool stuff!
Stevemj: I hear differences and I can't help it. I freely admit here and now that I am to far gone to be saved as I have given in to the dark side of power conditioners, power cords and cables. In fact, cables with arrows give me direction! Please don't worry about me. Just keep up your efforts to help the rest of these fine people here on this site. Regards to all; -Jerie |
stevemj, yure not serious, are ewe? it is also known that different types of distortion have different effects on the sound quality - some types of distortion are more benign than others. perhaps ewe should yust stick to radio-shack for yer wiring, & get their optimus electronics, which look yust fine on the spec-sheet. why bother w/spendy stuff - if it doesn't measure any better, then it surely can't sound any better... doug s. |
Most people here prefer what is more like music. |
Sedond - Often the difference between the type of gear usually prefered around here (tube amps for example) can be measured. So there is no mystery, most people here prefer higher distortion. |
hey stevemj, it sounds more-n-more like yure one-o-dem that resides in the camp i mentioned that ewe ignored - ie: if it can't be measured then it doesn't exist. btw, craig ain't the only one who's pleased to know yure less-n-less innerested in accomplishing anything here, i'm sure... ;~) regards, dug seed in |
Well that will not be too hard for you Stevemj. And we all know you don't want to over extend your limited resources. |
Well, if you get tired enough maybe you will have time to listen to some cables and power cords instead of reading about them. |
Garfish - I am not only accomplishing nothing, you will be pleased to know, I am less and less interested in accomplishing anything here. |
Good post Dhougg. Please put me in your 2nd camp. Stevemj; I don't know how many ICs, power cords, and spkr. cables I've rejected for sonic reasons-- and many were high bucks name brand products-- just the kind of "stuff" that you say I should like (and buy). How do you explain that? BTW, my "wires" are name brand mid to higher priced, and I also rejected some lower price stuff. Do you think that you're the only person who knows about the "placebo effect"? Are you just trying to educate us gullible audiophiles? Most audiophiles can easily tell the difference between "snake oil" and the "real deal" just by listening, can't you?. I really don't see that you're accomplishing anything here with your repetitious maunderings except spilling a lot of pixels. Cheers. Craig. |
stevemj, ewe are ignoring the camp that believes there is *no* sonic difference whatsoever, if it can't be quantified. if ewe look closer, i tink yule find that a great many of those ewe put in yer 1st camp in fact reside in the second it's yust that they are willing to accept that a sonic difference *can* exist, even tho it can't be measured... regards, doug s. |
I don't know why people dont like this outlet. I know that a common AB comparison mistake is to not have the volumns EXACTLY the same.
Our ears are, of course, esential in determining what gear to use. Everyone, believers and non believers alike, listens to their systems. I am suggesting that there is a real phenomenon that allows us to hear differences even when comparing identical gear. The fundamental difference between the two camps here is that one group believes that every time we hear a difference it must be real. The other camp says that psychology plays a part and we have to use our reasoning ability to help avoid pitfalls in the listening process. |
If all you say is true on the other threads regarding cable, then we should all just love this outlet since we have been told we will by the salesman. But we don't Please explain why again? Are you saying our minds will fool us one way with interconnects, than another way with power cords, all of which are false perceptions? You may have discovered a another science all together. |
No money - I might be wrong on this but I think that lower octane fuel has a litte more energy per gallon. So, if your octane is high enough to avoid pre-ignition you get a tiny bit more performance with the cheap stuff.
Listen, the only way an outlet can misbehave, assuming it's not broken or intermittant, is to have higher resistance. If it has higher resistance, it will get warm or hot or make smoke if it is transfering much power. Even if it is smoking while the music is playing it will not effect the sound as long as it is not robbing so much power that the amplifier is prematurely clipping.
There is a genuinely valuable thing to be learned from your listening test. And you will not be the first to learn it. It is, however, not that outlets sound different. The story that I posted to Sean over in "Speaker Wire Science of Psychology" is a true story. Check it out. |
Steve, the point is to not degrade the performance any more than you have to. You can put unleaded premium in your car and get a little more zip, or you can put the low test in and not. Doesn't mean that it makes sense to rebuild the engine unless it needs it. |
No money - The scope is for a speaker project, not just to test wire as suggested. I paid less for it than many here have in their line cords - God bless Ebay.
Really, unless it has been run over by a truck, there is just nothing and outlet can do wrong. Consider all the things in series with it. Should we test the AC circuit breakers and find which ones sound best. How about the transformers on the telephone pole. I'm sure there are different brands and of course some must sound better, right? Do you think that power from nuclear plants will sound better than power from coal burning generators? These are all equally valid questions.
My engineering audiophile friend says we are missing out on making some easy money from believers. No one has considered the gross distortion that must be caused by the inline fuses. If we could just get some gold plated fuses we could sell them for a mint. I can see it now, "Forth Dimension Audiophile Gold Fuses". Only $45.00. Improved mid-range definition, huge soundfield without loss of spacial precision, tighter bass, faster dynamic damping suppression and reduced stress on power supply components. Get your fuses from people understand what you want. |
Steve; it seems you actually took my post on 3/12 seriously. I really meant it sort of facetiously. OTOH if you really do have info on BRAND NAMES of various equipment that is some kind of scam, I'm sure we'd all like to hear about it. Good post Dugg, hope ewe'll keep us posted on the van evers unit. Craig |
Steve, most of the posts state that this outlet has an adverse affect when used with amps. Is it not possible that this is true? I have an idea, put down your books and listen. Why would you fork out the cash for a dual trace scope ( nice thing to have around, but for what? ) and not be willing to spend a little jack on some USED cable or power cords. You can turn around and sell them if they make no difference to you. Why not??? You don't see reviews of equipment being written soley based on measurements. |
Yes, I should note that I've been sent a revised outlet in which the fuse is no longer in series. This is said to drastically improve performance. I'm going to run it in and will report in a few days. |
a-gon: why did you delete paul mcgowan's post from this thread? while it may be construed as adwertizing, it was also most useful info, from a mfr, admitting that there is a problem w/one of his products... doug s. |
stevemj, sorry, but what's all this *blather*?!? yust *listen*, man! sometimes the difference in sound between power conditioners, etc, is so obvious, it's a no-brainer, *anyone* could hear the difference. yes, even power conditioners, that aren't even in the signal path. i yust recently removed a 20 amp 2400 watt voltage stabilizer/conditioner from my system to see if it was doing anything to the sound - i'd never run the current set-up w/o it. well, the sound improvement running my amps straight into the wall was huge - my wife came in & asked what did i do to make the stereo sound so good? i'm now gonna try the vans evers unlimiter - if it does *nothing* to the sound, isle be quite content! :>) and, i've heard a system where the addition of a ps-audio p300 made a big improvement. so, while i'm all for saving money, i don't make yudgments about things i've never tried. it's patently *obvious* yuve never tried these things ewe diss so much, perhaps cuz ewe can't see the logic behind how/why they work. why is it so obvious, ewe may ask? cuz if ya *did* try 'em, yude hear the difference! unless ya really *are* deaf... regards, doug s. |
No money - I don't know why. I am only claiming that it has nothing to do with the fidelity of the sound. The power from the wall gets hacked up by the rectifiers and dumped into the storage capacitors. The power supplies have a significant amount of ripple on their plus and minus rails. Small irregularities on the power line will make small irregulaities on the relitively large amount of ripple on the rails. The fidelity of the sound is uneffected by this ripple until an amplifier is driven into clipping. During clipping the ripple of the power supply shows up on the top of the wave form the amp is trying to reproduce. At this point distortion is very high and audible.
There are some things that just don't need to be tested. Here is an analogy to the power cord, distribution, outlet senario. You are in a small submarine well below the surface waves (power supply ripple) whose particle's vertical movement is in a circular fashion and extends something like two times the height of the waves. Large seaguls are landing and taking off from the surface creating little waves. My contention is that in the submarine you will not feel the effect of the birds activity.
What make these products even more ridiculous is that they don't do anything to the line anyway (they don't stop the seaguls from landing). I read an ad for one of the ac line conditioners that bragged about not having any coils, filters, transformers or capacitor to spoil the quality of the sound. Of course there is no sound on the power supply side. And the very things that would clean up the ac line are the things they brag about not having.
You could by a ferroresonant transformer. They actually do clean up and stabalize the AC power. They provide constant voltage and tremendous surge protection. They won't make things sound better but they will protect your valuable equipment. Problem is that they make a lot of mechanical noise due to magnetostriction (the transformer laminations actually grow and shrink as the the magnetic field varies). If you could sound proof one in a box it would be a useful addition to your system. |
The question was ..do the Ps Audio outlets improve sound.? The answers varied, but were mostly negative. That saves many posters time and money, and was of real service to Auidogon's members, unlike the " I know it all, and these fools are wasting their money " attitude some here are espousing. As to whether cables, outlets, line conditioners make a difference, anyone denying it is wasting our time. The issue is really, what kind of difference, and is it worth it? The objectivist vs. the subjectivist topic is so old. Statistical testing for differences is only part of the criteria for judging, not all of it. Our results are always limited by the tests themselves. Experience, scepticism, and an open mind should be respected as in Dekay's case. No one here knows it all, and I am glad of that fact Mr. Stevemj. |
PS: Steven: As far as cable being directional the only conductor that I can conceive of as not being so following run in (another aspect that you probably do not believe in) would be totally symmetrical (perhaps crystalline) in structure. Otherwise the cable would be directional. Whether the difference is audible in all cables, I don't know, but it has been in the cable that I use and have used. You also fail to comprehend that many cables are marked for direction due to their grounding schemes. As far as my answering questions goes, I have 35 years+ experience (with real equipment in real situations) plus was a musician many of those years having recorded and mixed music as well and feel confident answering questions based on real life experiences. In other words, I don't guess or make it up as I go along. Sound familiar? |
Steven: I apoligize for attacking you personaly, though I do find your posts most irratating. However there is no talking to you because you obviously either have a hearing problem or have not properly auditioned (if at all) the gear/equipment that you dismiss. To be credible you would have had to audition the products that you have strong feelings about, which I doubt that you have. |
Steve, you didn't answer my qestion. Why would we hear a negetive affect when using this outlet if it costs more and we have been told that it will IMPROVE the sound of our amps? How can you say it doesn't make a difference if you have not tried it! I can say all day long that BMW 750i drives like my Maxima....but I have never even sat in 750 much less drove one so who is going to believe me |
Dekay - I'm tired of your personal attacks. I noticed in one of your posts you said "The cables are marked as to the direction of use". From this I can only assume that you do not know that audio signals are AC. Or worse, you know that audio is AC but you are so confused that you think it still must make a difference at to the direction of the cables. At any rate, with your level of knowledge, should only post questions. |
Craig - My intention is to save you money. I am sticking to the most obvious hoaxes. Line cords, power distributors, outlets etc. aren't in the signal path and can't even theoretically have an effect. The psychological aspect is not something that just affects the weakminded. Everybody, myself included, almost always seems to hear a difference when something is changed. The more you expect to hear a difference the more likely it is that you will.
Take line conditioners. The idea that a line conditioner reduces noise is so outlandish it can't be ridiculed. The electrons in the wire have been around for 15 billion years. Shuffling them back and forth for a few hours in an attempt to change something is preposterous. Does this stop people from hearing a significant difference. NO.
How about those arrows on the phono cables? The manufactures know perfectly well that the exact amount of current had better flow in each direction in those wires. Does that stop them from putting arrows on them. NO. They must have a very low opinion of the intelligence of audiophiles. Do you think people would hear a difference if they installed the cables with the arrow point opposite to the manufacture's suggestion? Of course they would.
Buying expensive line cords is another act of insanity. Think about it. On one end of the cord is a hundred feet of ordinary wire going round and round the transformer core and on the other end of the cord is several hundred miles or ordinary wire going back to the power source. Even if there were something special besides the price of the cord, what good is 8 feet of cool wire in line with hundreds of miles of ordinary wire going to do?
I say don't waste money on outlets, power cords, line conditions and cable conditioners.
I think exotic speaker wire is bogus too, however, at least it is in the signal path. I am going to test some cheap wire, the kind I use, as soon as I get the test equipment I have on order. The test is simple and will measured effects down to a small fraction of a db.
Spend your money on good speakers. That is where the action is. Even the very best speakers have much higher distortion than a Radio Shack receiver - as long as you are not driving the RS to clipping. |
Stevenmj: You gave the impression that you were going to give us a break in another of your posts, but I guess not, so it seems. You spout generalities but offer no information on the systems or circumstances of your findings. This is a gear/music orientated site in which the members walk the walk (actually own/demo and audition the gear that they post about). You on the other hand only talk the talk and it has already gotten very old very quickly. Most of us can hear very well, thank you, but you have nothing to say. You have also commented to the effect that you wish to stop us from wasting our money on "do nothing" products. Although it would be self serving, I wish that I could stop you from making such an ars out of yourself. |
Stevemj, if it where psychological wouldn't most of these posts tend to prefer the "Ultimate Outlet"? After all these folks ordered one after reading the hoopla on the website about the improvements to expect, it costs a lot of more than the outlet in your wall so it would have to be better right? You really should try some of this stuff before shooting it down based on the numbers. Thanks. |
Stevemj; your above assertion has not been my experience, but would you please tell us what components, including various wires, that are not clouded by nasty (and expensive) psychological overtones? This information could save us a great deal of money. It would be really be helpful if you would provide brand names of "the good stuff" as well as "the bad stuff". Thankyou. Craig |
You cannot affect the sound of your gear by messing around with outlets or power cords. The fact that you think you can only proves how much of this business is psychological. |
For power amps, the RGPC is a great performer.
I use a pair on my ARC VT100 MKII with excellent results |
Don't know about power amps, but this thing is killer on digital!
Just got my UO yesterday and find myself in disagreement with the negative posts.
I'll try it on an amp. It is wonderful! |
Paul:
Yesterday, your Ultimate Outlet arrived. 5 minutes later, it ws on line. I have no idea what your claims are for this piece. Please remember that my system is "tubed" from one end to the other. But what I heard was: a drop in the noise. Those little silences in music are breathtaking.
Also a clearer decay in the notes, they go on forever! As if the resolution increased. The same for imaging. The frequency balance seems more uniform. Music is just more real! The real test will come tonight, when I listen in a totally dark room. This could be scarey!
You have made me a believer. And this from a person who doesn't believe in tweaks. If anyone doesn't have, at the very least, your Power Plant: they DO NOT know what their systems are capable of reproducing. And the "outlet" has raised the bar!! I am filled with admiration. Now I am wondering about your power cords. Will it ever end?
WELL DONE!! Jim Germann |
I'll second the thanks, you guys just saved me a big pain. |
Thanks for keeping us up to date everyone.
Martin |
I disagree with you. PS Audio is not a great company; it's a fantastic one. But on the outlets for the amps something has gone terribly wrong; I wonder if it's the flimsy power cords, but I doubt that that alone can account for the terrible effects they have on the sound when placed on amps. |
