My biggest question at this time though is; with running the DS direct to the Amp my volume setting on the DS is about 60-65. Could I be truncated bits?
I know PS says it shouldn't, but, I don't know... My guess is Yes and losing resolution so I suggest running through your pre at full volume. I've tried many DACs and always prefer going through a pre. Had a Lamp L5 with analog volume control and still much prefer going through pre. Sometimes theory <> practice. |
Fsmithjack,
Thanks for the information about this tube buffer. Can you kindly describe some details regarding the difference with and without it on the DS? |
FSmithJack,
Why not just get a properly designed tube Dac?? Adding just a random tube output stage wont compare well to a designed from ground up tube Dac like Lampi, VAD or Aesthetix.
Or just a iFi Audio iTube for even less money? |
Tonyptony, Your break in method sounds like a good idea, I will follow that.
My interconnects are the HiDiamond XLR3's. I do have others but at this time (low hours) I will keep everything as is until I have more hours on it.
Fsmithjack, Thank you for your response. I had an APL Dac a few years back that lots of posters swore by using it direct to an Amp. With that Dac, I tried it direct but eventually I went back to a preamp. So, the DS may also prove to need a Preamp, so I'll see.
My biggest question at this time though is; with running the DS direct to the Amp my volume setting on the DS is about 60-65. Could I be truncated bits?
I know PS says it shouldn't, but, I don't know...
Anyway, I only listened to it for about an hour yesterday. I then started to play continuously a Purist Audio break in disc.
I'll listen to it more this weekend.
P.S. I should add that I firmly believe in burn in, run in etc. I even own an Audiodharma cable cooker. But, if PS Audio didn't make claims about it needing no burn in time, I wouldn't be concerned. |
With respect IMO this like many components are at their best used with other complimenting, synergistic matching components if one has high resolution speakers. Bottom line is I don't think this DAC or any DAC out there at any price point and at any point of breaking is going to make a hi-end premium preamp obsolete and even not really preferred.
I can tell you with my system with my DACs I have secret weapon that I tried back when I owned my Ayre QB-9 that I now find I can't live w/out and I have tried to get rid of and can't. It just makes any digital SS piece DAC/CDP sound so so so much better. Every time I try get it out of my system and do an A/B comparison it's just too good and I can't remove it and it is not expensive, only about $500.00. I use a Cathode follower after my DAC/CDP that sort of turns my DS into a hybrid Tube DAC. Basically it is like installing a Tube output Stage onto your SS DAC that has a variable Gain trim pot to control volt gain (1v to 5v gain) to tailor to your piece perfectly. Many modders out there will add this exact type tube output stage mod and hardwire it into the CDP directly and set the preferred voltage gain and it is a gigantic upgrade. It can make a mid-fi CDP player sound great. Modders have been using this same type of tube output stage for years. Well what I use is the same thing but it is in its own box which keeps noise floor down, can just be unhooked, has its own tube, power supply, power cord and 1v to 5v gain adjustments. You can turn the volts all the way up to 5v and turn your preamp down to build pressure and change the depth of the center image or adjust bass, etc, etc. I just can't live without it and sorry for long post but if you add one of these to your DS you will see why out of the box for me it sound so great to my ears. This Tube output stage makes a big impact and it is cheap.
I was told to try it back when I was running an Ayre QB-9 and I was blown away by the gigantic SQ increase and been stuck with it ever since. It is made by Decware and called with ZSTAGE. There is also a non gain changing version but the one with gain is way better as I own both. In my system I use i put it about 3/4 up or 3.5v of gain and it hooks in right after my DS DAC between my DAC and my CAT SL-1 Signature MK III preamp. Just thought you guys may like the mod idea that wonders for me. Thanks |
I don't see how anyone could think this unit is great straight out of the box. I noted the things the DS did "better" when I first turned it on, but I wasn't ready to throw out the parts to my PWD Mk.II. Believe me it took as long as I indicated before I felt like the nasty bits were gone. During burn in of any component I use the "short sessions with long waits in between" approach so I don't fool myself by just getting used to how something sounds. I also use something else (in this case my TT) as a known standard against which to judge any changes. One other thing. The DS is (IME) very sensitive to the matching ICs. I discovered the ones which worked perfectly with my PWD were not a good match with the DS. You may need to be prepared to experiment. |
Well, I just plugged in the PS Audio Direct Stream direct for the first time direct into my Pass Labs X350.5 Amp.
First impression... Not much, very closed in soundstage, and limited upper frequencies.
I don't see how anyone could think this unit is great straight out of the box.
I sure hope this "ugly duckling" gets better. I have a Purist burn in disc that I will play for the next few days, and I will check it every so often. |
Ozzy,
I intend to place my order once I get the budget together later in the year. |
Erikminer,Tonyptony,Kernelbob Thank you for your comments.
Sabai, You've got to order one.
Fsmithjack, Thank you for your impressions. My DS unit is on the Fed Ex truck for todays delivery. Have you by chance tried it direct to an Amp? I think that's where I will start. |
Guys, I have had my DS for about a week and a half. Those of you worried about returning it after 30 days because of not enough burn in time? You don't have to worry about that at all. Trust me its just not something that will come up from the first time you hear it in your own system. A pure non factor IMHO...
For me I could care less about what is said about a system in a room with all kinds of other people all squished in with an unfamiliar, complementing system and in a non treated, strange room. If we know anything we know this is less than ideal. Sure, when no other info is available then it is better than nothing but not what a decision can be based on. Al least not on this unit IMO.
When you get this DAC and plug it into your system, in your special - dear room, with your hard sought after, trial and error based years of rewarding work finding just the very right speaker cables, with beautifully matching and complimenting expensive interconnects, power cables for each and every component that purposely compliment and play off one an another, with your creamy and detailed preamp that you can't live without and most importantly your painstaking chosen and beloved speakers you will then know instantly the very first second the switch is flipped and it is turned on that it is a keeper and a special a piece.
All the marketing and hype and all that? Who cares that's the business side of things. If I was worried about the business side of things would I really be spending $60k on a stereo system. I don't think so but maybe I am wrong. This DAC was bam, right upside the head. It was for me anyways. I was like, nice.... that is what I was hoping for... Actually it may even be a little better than I had hoped for as I am already getting JADED as I tempered my expectations quite a bit. Which by the way is not a bad idea in this love/hate hobby of ours. I listened the first second, minute I turned it on. No I was not scared to do that. Why, I paid for it with my money that I worked for. Was it better 3-4 hours later? It was... Was it better after running all night and day after work the next day? It was. How about after 30 - 40 hours was it quite a bit better still? Ya I would say it was... What can I tell you? Right out of the box it wasn't laid back at all. It was thin and not real sure footed but it was still special. No idea where that laid back sound has come from. Really, this DAC? We all hear/see/like/perceive things differently so I am not to judge but I just don't hear it and I have listened for hours and hours and hours to all kinds of music. As you all know the rest of ones system has a little to say about things such as laid backness (not a word but you get the point)? Wouldn't you guys agree that the old little things like pre/amp/cables/speakers sort of can have some impact on the SQ character of a single piece in a system.
Ok, I am not going to get into describing all the HI's -Mid's- Lows, Imaging ,Transparency, PRAT, coherence etc, etc. for the reasons the rest of ones system may have on it but I will tell you what I think of this DAC? This DAC is flat out amazing and it is changing quite a bit in front of my eyes/ears. Developing, growing, extending, tightening and actually physically evolving and not in a really subtle way either. No way this DAC would be sent back after 30 days. I wouldn't have sent mine back after 30 seconds. Lets talk about the MKII that I owned before it and liked very much. I really did and I genuinely thought it was a very nice sounding DAC that I was quite happy with. Like all of us I always want better but I liked the MKII DAC quite a bit.
Is it better than the MKII? Yes it is. Is it way better than the MKII. Yes it is. Is it Absolutely in a total other league and utterly and blatantly - ridiculously better than the MKII. Yes it is IMO. I liked the MKII but to put in simple coffee drinker terms. The MKII is sweet n low and the DS is pure sugar. Not a fair comparison really. If someone really wants to return one of these then they should just stick with Vinyl because no DAC will work for them. Is this DAC better than the top flight, true hi-end vinyl rigs? No,of course not. They cost 5 times as much and I am talking about DACs here not analogue. DACs are DACs... Moreover, is It is better than the $20k - $30k DACS? I doubt it why would it be? I never heard any of those in my system so I am just guessing here but wouldn't expect it to be better than those. In this hobby not always but many times long doe by you long SQ... As far as this $6k DAC goes it is a special one and a no-brainer keeper. |
If you have a look at the PS audio forum dedicated to the DS you will note that the DS needs 500+ hours of break-in. |
Matt, IME you will need most of that 30 day trial period to get the final sense of the DS. In my system it took somewhere after 3-4-500 hours before the high end came into its own. Just make sure when you're not listening to it to keep running music, burn in tracks, whatever, 24/7. Others report the thing sounded fantastic right out of the box. I don't know what that means, but go figure. |
I am pretty sure it's a 30 day return policy.
So I will chew up the first 20 days burning in.....
I better confirm the length of that return policy. ;) |
Matt. I have one, 200 hours is the jump off point . A few on the PSA forum are reporting 500.. I have about 500 on mine and I'd concur. |
PSA DirectStream break-in time.
I have a PSA PWD MkII. After two weeks of break-in I was ready to return it. Hard sounding treble, thin bass. My vendor said they took a long time to sound right and that their worst sound during break-in was after two weeks (powered on 24x7). After the two week mark, it started sounding better and after a month, the treble was clean, relaxed, extended and the bass was tight, deep, and musical. I don't know if the DirectStream settles in faster, but this is just fyi from my experience. |
Everything I have read thus far suggests the DS only needs about 100 hours of burn in time (that's about 4-5 days) to reach full potential. This is important to me so that I can give the unit the best chance it has to shine.
Has anyone heard it needs longer?
Otherwise, I will burn it in for 7 days before I listen. That's about 160 hours. |
My Direct Stream has been shipped! Should get it sometime next week. |
Matt, I agree. Even with the reference to the Diamond it does not give enough of a reference to relate to. Mind you I have heard the Diamond and I thought at the time it was the best DAC I had heard but that was several years ago and that is a VERY long time in Audio terms.
Even the first review of the DS only compared it to the PW DAC. Hell, I would hope it was better.
|
I wish he gave a list of "all" the other DAC's he has had in his room besides the uber $31k DAC.
That statement is sorta worthless without a list.
I get that the DS is 90% of the Diamond, and that's an impressive statement. |
Ozzy.. another review of the DirectStream
http://bitperfectsound.blogspot.ca/2014/05/directstream-i.html |
Matt,
First off thanks for you fun thread. If you get a chance, email me at wis97non at yahoo.co.uk, if you dont mind.
2nd, I agree the DS is a very interesting Dac, but I also know you are RBCD focussed via PC server. The DS is really a DSD based Dac and perhaps it shines brightest on that material, even though they say that it brings new life to CDs. I personally love DSD, so I am favourably inclined. I would love to compare in via DSD to my Lampi DSD-only Dac. |
Yes. I believe it retails for $8K-
Aeris retail is $9600-
Directstream is $6k-
OverDrive SE is about $8K- with options +/-
so even if I determine that its as good but just doesn't have perfect synergy with my system, its still a feather in the DS cap competing with DAC's at $2-4k more. |
Mattnshilp, Thank you for your posting. I look forward to your comparisons of those Dacs with the Direct Stream. Is the Lampizator more expensive than the PS Direct Stream? |
There really is something to this Lampy obsession. They are wonderful DAC's!! I received my Big6 today and it's sound is simply breathtaking! The DirectStream is shipping June 2nd.
I don't want to hijack this thread. So....
For those interested in reading my comparison of:
Lampy Big6
PS Audio DirectStream
Jeff Rowland Aeris
Empirical Audio OverDrive SE
Possibly an Aesthetix Pandora Signature
Please :
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1398132150&&&/Absolute-top-tier-DAC-for-standard-res-R
It's a fun read and a fun experience!
Regards. |
Any updates on reviews or comparisons? |
Mattnshilp - I would have pulled a very similar list to yours. I'm looking forward to the eventual post. |
Charles1dad:
I chose my DAC list based on each units strong reputation as a wonderfully musical piece of kit. Emotional and involving. I am sure that all 5, in the right system, with the right synergy, could produce best-in-show performance at RMAF. They are all going to be great, so my opinion will be based on my other gear, cables, room, accessories, etc.
But my system is pretty resolving, so I think its a good opportunity for others to use what I find....
Happy to answer any questions via this forum, PM or email. |
Matt,
I would feel very comfortable comparing the Lampizator Big 6 against the MSB, DCS and Esoteric " upper tier" DACs based on music reproduction criteria as opposed to a "hifi" check list. It will depend on what you're looking for. Your impressions will be interesting to read.
Charles, |
Mattnshilp,
From PF:
"Positive Feedback Online Fair warning: This may end up being real competition to the Playback Designs MPD-3 and MPD-5 DSD DACs, my current reference standards. I'll give it a week or so to fully warm up...I'll work it out with numerous DSD and PCM sources, to check this."
AudioStream is also working on a review. |
Drubin: your list is appropriate and comparable to the DS in many ways. Actually a much more appropriate comparison list then the one I created. I actually have a friend who might bring his Meitner MA-1 for me to try as well.
My goal is to audition higher level dac's that are sort of catering to red book and 16/44 files, not DSD or up sampled PCM. Most on my list are between $8K and $10k . I want to see if the DS can truly compete with bigger guns, as Paul M from PS Audio claims . In an interview, he said that his DS compared favorably (read "sounded better") then a $30K DAC they tried in their listening room.
I'll share my findings happily
Out of curiosity, how many songs do you guys usually use for your gear comparisons? I have a song list on Amarra with 15-20 songs and I actually think its too many truthfully. I'm thinking 5 well chosen songs would be much more effective Considering my 20 songs take about 2 hours to listen to, I find that my brain doesn't have the capacity to remember specific nuances of an earlier song by the time the later songs come . |
Mattnshilp, Your review with those Dacs would be great!
Drubin. Check out PS Audio Website. A new owner of the DS has compared the DS to Meitner, and the Auralic Vega. He sold them and kept the DS!
There is also to be an upcoming review of the PS Audio DirectStream in 6 Moons.
I should have my DS unit in the next couple of weeks. I can compare it to a Bryston BDA-2 Dac and the Dac inside of my Cary SACD 306 SACD. |
I won't hold my breath, but the DACs I'd most like to see the DS compared to are the Meitner, Bricasti, MSB Analog DAC and Auralic Vega. |
Just to avoid conflict.
I should correct that to say:
"Amongst" the best there currently is to offer..... |
Thanks to Erik as well for posting that link.
Kana813:
In early June I will be running a comparison (personal, not connected with any publication) to decide my ideal DAC. Of course system synergy, and personal preference have so much to do with the final decision. But I have acquired some top tier DAC's and will gladly report my findings.
Incoming:
Lampizator Big6
Accustic Arts Tube DAC 2 mk 2
Empirical Audio OverDrive SE
Jeff Rowland Aeris
PS Audio DirectStream
I can't wait!!!
To be honest, I think the DirectStream is the underdog. But the guys from PS Audio claim it can play with the big boys; so let's see. I know the list is not top tier, mega dollar Wadia, MSB, DCS, Esoteric gear. But for red book CD and 16/44 files, I think what I have coming in is pretty much the best there currently is to offer..... |
Erikminer, Yes thanks for the link. |
Thank's for posting that link, Erikminer.
Regards, |
Wish Karl would have compared the DS to some DACs other than the PWD. |
First formal review of the Directstream http://www.audiophilia.com/wp/?p=13620 |
+1French fries regarding the varying quality of the actual CD/SACD. When mastered and produced with a high level of care they can sound quite wonderful and engaging.
Charles, |
Thanks, Charles1dad, French fries, Hgeifman, and Bsme85,for your comments.
I am not shy of returning things that don't impress. After all, I have been banned from Audio Advisor.
It is good to know that PS Audio stands behind there products. I guess the 2 things that I am concerned with is, the possible loss of high frequency extension. (I love hearing the smash of a cymbal). And the reduction of dynamics. Both of these items have been commented about on different forums. |
Ozzy: You have zero risk buying the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC since PS Audio has a 100% money back return policy. If the unit does not sound okay, you can return it and get your money back. In addition, PS Audio Customer Support is terrific if you need it.
Please see this link for the PS Audio return policy.
http://www.psaudio.com/returns-and-security/
I agree with you that many hi-end units require a break in time. For example, I own the Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC and their manual says the unit requires about 100-500 hours of break in time. My unit sounded much better after about 200 hours of use. It is fully broken in now and sounds terrific.
When you get the unit, please give us your impressions out of the box and again after some break in time. |
With all due respect to new innovations in digital audio (this is only one more step forward in what has been a very large number of improvements over the years), if you already like what you are hearing from your system right NOW, it is in no way "obsolete": after hearing an SHM-SACD of Steely Dan's "AJA" the other day, i was so startled by the holographic imaging and the lack of any false notes, i concluded Yet Again that improvements in software is the simplest and the least expensive way of re-visiting what your system is capable of. Although
$45 isn't cheap either, but whatever "they" did to this disc, it was definitely a huge improvement. |
Ozzy,
I wish you a better outcome than what " hope and change " has yielded.
Good Luck,
Charles, |
Hifial,
After reading the many PS Audio claims and accolades on this product, I don't recall they ever stated that it would take many hours of burn in to sound better than their previous product. The impression I got was that, as soon as the unit was plugged in you could tell instantly the superior sound improvement.
So, with blind faith I have one on order and hope to get it in a couple of weeks.
Now, I truly believe that all components sound better after they have been used (burned in) for awhile. Heck, I even own an Audiodharma cable cooker.
Now, you and others are stating that it needs many hours of burn in to sound better than the previous model, the PW II.
It is a little unnerving to have prepaid for an item with this rocky ("hope and change") kind of performance. Not to mention that it costs a little more than chump change.
So, I thank you for your posting and I guess I'll just have to try it for myself. Yet, I still have to wonder how you can design a product without knowing the final result? |
Descriptions of sounds are mostly meaningless. You have to actually hear them to understand. |
I think I remember Ted Smith saying that the output transformers are part of the output filter. Changing them out would change the filter as well. Who knows if that would be advisable or not? |
Kana813 Funny, I was thinking the same thing just last night.
I was thinking, OK what can be upgraded? Caps, power supply, fuses etc. And how much of, if any, improvement will it bring. |
"Remember, the DS design uses transformers in the low signal output pathway and they will take many hours to burn in somewhat like the Duelund caps."
Wonder when the mod guys will start replacing the cheap Edcor trannies with Jensens or Lundahls. |
Ozzy, do not read too much into those postings that the PW sounds better then the DS. I believe all of those postings are based on DS that have very little burn in hours on them. Even the PW needed to have 400+ hours on it to reach its full potential.
Even now there are postings about how the sound is evolving as more hours are on their DS.
Until there are 400+ hours on these DS on think the jury is still out.
Just like a Lampizator that has new Duelund Caps it will take 400-500 hours of play before it will sound its best.
Remember, the DS design uses transformers in the low signal output pathway and they will take many hours to burn in somewhat like the Duelund caps. |
Hifial,thanks for the comments. I for one would love to hear of a comparative review of the Lampizator and the PS Audio Direct Stream dac's... seeing these two are at the top of my digital upgrade list. |
