Having been a long time audiophile living with countless high end compnents I have to wonder about the theory and practicality of high end power cords.
I have yet to hear the difference a power cord makes. Ive owned, synergistic, Shunyata, BMI and cardas. I in no way can detect any sonic signature or change. Give me a pair of interconnects and I imeadiately notice a difference somewhere in the sonic spectrum. Not the PC though. I have accomplished 4 blind tests with my friends. 3 out of the 4 they did not know their cord was replaced. All 4 were using a stock factory supplied cord. Each of the 4 tests were done on different components. Amp, CDP, Preamp & dac.
My electrical backround tells me that provided you supply the component with its required voltage bet 110vac or 220/240vac its happy. Now, change the incoming frequency from 60hz to say 53hz and watch how quickly your soundstage collapses.! This is often the case during the summer months when home air conditioners are in use and the utility company power output is taxed to the max. A really good power conditioner should however take care of the frequency fluctuations. But 110vac is still 110vac regardless of the conductor it passes through as long as its remains 110vac when it reaches the intended circuit. Does your 8k amp or preamp know the difference of the path the voltage took to reach it ? Many an audiophile will use a dedicated 20amp circut for their equipment.That is a good idea as voltage & frequency fluctuations will occur in the home circuit to to other loads on the main breaker panel but again, A power cord simply is the means of transporting the voltage from the wall to the component. IF there is a clean 110vac @ 60hz at the wall socket, no matter what the medium is to go from the socket to the component, it will still be 110vac @60hz.
Could somebody expand on this a bit more. I just dont understand it. ??
Its an old term brought back to life, now related to audio and not medicine.
We all know stories about the travelling medicine man. Then the gullible folks who were duped out of their money, by miraculous but false claims. Where are the scietists when you need them?
But the difference between then an now is that the folks who bought the stuff from the medicine man, never had a chance to try the oil before they bought it.
When it comes to power cords, you have the choice.
If you don't hear any difference in your system and with your ears,you won't buy the product.For you that's proof of snake oil.
If someone does hear an improvement and buys the product,he wasn't conned, and to him the product is not snake oil.
He hears it, you don't.
That's the simple fact, to have to prove it to the denier, is moot.
The denier is not required to buy the expensive power cords. He can decide to spend his money elsewhere in this hobby as he sees fit. Maybe a better power amp. Maybe several others when that power amp doesn't seem to do it for him.
The power cord in all these transactions is most always the stock cord that came with the amp.
The amps come and go, each with the promise of sonic nirvana, but afterawhile it's the amps that are precieved as snake oil, and then the whole hobby is rife with snake oil con artists and their shills. The audiophile's pursuit of the absolute sound has ended in another burn out.
Another one bites the dust, goes off the merry go round and makes do with whatever he can cobble from the pawn shops of broken audio dreams, and tells us this is his sonic bliss. Who are we to tell him otherwise? We bought snake oil afterall.
07-24-11: Danomcroo I am by no means attempting to besmirch any product.
Yes you are.
But, $1200 worth of acoustic wall panels and bass traps will ALWAYS be a better investment than a magic power cord or holy speaker wire.
No it isn't. Room treatment addresses speaker/room interaction non-linearities. Power cords address line noise and current delivery to the power supply. Speaker cables address signal transfer from the amplifier to the speakers.
You could spend $10,000 on room treatment and *still* not address an audible issue that can be addressed only by a cable swap.
Next time you want to use your job experience as a blanket condemnation of certain aspects of audio tuning, why not run it by Anthony H. Cordesman?
I am by no means attempting to besmirch any product. If a person feels compelled to spend $1200 for something they could buy for $12.50, go for it! But, $1200 worth of acoustic wall panels and bass traps will ALWAYS be a better investment than a magic power cord or holy speaker wire.
I am a relative noobie when it comes to high end audio speakers, but I spend 6 years repairing communications equipment for the Air Force. I do know a little about electrical theory. I can see this forum is going to be far more entertaining than the dull old college football blogs.
Hi all. My first post on the forum, and I'm posting here because after reading these audio threads for several months, I know there is a wealth of knowledge to be tapped.
The input terminals on the back of all powered audio equipment, and thus the equipment's performance, is affected by two things, the input voltage and the frequency. I think the marketing success of special power cords, comes from their ability to convince the buyer that there are other "spooks and goblins" in the electricity that can somehow degrade audio performance, and that their product fixes these issues. All that is required for any well designed component to perform to it's maximum potential is that the power supplied to it be 110V/60Hz power. If the wall outlet supplies these requirements, there is nothing that any power cord can do to improve it.
Solution to #7... I wear cotton in my ears and also my nose. I can't stand to hear a women screaming, and worse... I hate the smell of burning rubber:)
I suspect that most happily married men with a loving wife, would be grateful for 7....just once in a while...even at the risk of going completely deaf!
The way I understand power is that it does NOT start at the power station, flow through wire, and then is used up in our amps, but instead the electrons push against the next electron. Its not a flow, but a miniscule exchange that is reversed every 60 cycles per second....so that your power cord is actually the FIRST foot of wire that the amp sees, not the last of miles of wire. It has been MY experience that there is NO cable that makes more of a difference than power cables. Again....each design has to be auditioned in each system to hear what that cable does. It has also been my experience that power conditioners can change the sound, but nearly always does so at the expense of some other aspect of the total sound picture. I have never met a power conditioner I could live with.
If you could not tell the difference among PCs, and call them " snake oil" , and just leave it out of your option.
I had Shunyata, Tara Labs, Nordost, BMI PCs in my system, and my friends brought their Argento, Siltech etc., all are top model PCs to A/B test in my system, let me tell you, they are all different, and you can tell immediately.
Maybe your system or your ear is not sensitive to the changes . No offense:)
LT: I agree with everything you said in your last post, but this is your prior statement I was mainly responding to:
"Absolute snake oil...The notion that you can 'hear' an AC cable flys in the face of common sense. There have been too many failed 'blind' tests, convincing test data (please don't tell me your hearing is more acute than electronic test equipment!) and not to mention the laws of physics."
This part I must have misinterpreted: "I don't completely discount the possibility that cabling in the signal chain, or even an AC supply cable can make a sonic difference, whether for better or worse. The caveat is: there MUST be a measurable difference in electrical parameters to explain it..." I took that to mean that you doubted such measureable differences really existed. (Not to mention maybe even a few we don't know to measure for...)
Also 'for the record': I've personally never spent what I consider to be unreasonable prices for PC's (used, natch), but even so, some of those I was eagerly hoping for an improvement with I turned out not to like the sound of. I'll have my worms fried, whether canned or fresh, on the theory that you can eat just about anything if it's fried (...and some might say you can also *hear* just about anything if *you're* fried ;^)
Hey, real men don't dance jigs! Everyone knows that. Real men grunt and fart...only...or maybe grow up to become Attorney General.
Disclaimer: My wife will, under oath, swear that I was nowhere near the peebles thread and was peacefully sitting by her side watching an episode of the The Iron Chef while all the shenanigans were taking place. From what she read in the recent Enquirer, a certain, Sir K. Piglet, was the ringleader of the proceedings and is now being sought by Count Viggen's seconds for some good ol Brooklyn-bone-breaking. Word is that a duel is imminent. I fervently pray that the two gentlemen in question will embrace in the spirit of prudence and pulchritude, and settle their differences where real men solve their problems...the YMCA.
You're a great guy,Viggen.Because of you, I have many times put a cloth on my head and danced a jig on the table. What better way to get excited about this hobby!Power cords snake oil? No way! Now if Gunbei,Viggen and Marco could do a dance on the table routine and provide photos, then we fellow audiophiles can see who "real" audiophiles are.And remember,you're never too old to express your elations about this hobby by "dancin' a jig on the table".
Yo Larry, thanks for covering my behind. Lord knows I need it since KP can't stop looking at it = X.
I remember when I first hopped onto Audiogon, I discovered lots of tidbits that improved my system immensely. And, one of these tweaks got me dance on my table with joy. Unfortunately, Sherod was there to wintess this, and he has not let me forget it since = P.
Well, you missed the Pebbles post, which explained it all.
It had some... disturbing images presented to the mind's eye.
(To clarify, there was much tongue in cheek humor involved, and it has carried over to other posts. Whose tongue and whose cheek is yet to be determined, pending DNA samples.)
VVrinc, Marco, they were all there, I swear. They were. And a little fluffy dog.
KP
PS:I also share the view that Viggen is one of the sharper fellows around here; he's also a very good sport.
Panny, I like Viggen as a fellow audiophile. You didn't understand the post. Perhaps Viggen can jump into this thread and explain the "dancin' on the Table..." thing.
Why do you guys pick on Ed? He has a lot more wisdom for audio than others I have read.
If for any reason he is into things which might be construed as being a little unorhodox than please excuse my ignorance,but as far as I know he is not using sand shells as tweeking tools.
I cannot picture him dancing on tables tighly clad in some weird outfit! I think your imaginations or sexual fantasy's are getting the best of you.
What? Not Viggen? He will be crushed (ah, or are you actually reffering to Viggen?).
Anyway, everyone knows canned worms aren't the best. If you like canned worms you must have atrophied taste buds. If you must store worms, please use a proper glass container. Canned worms have a metallic flavor, much like solid state gear. semi-colon close parentheses
For the record, I certainly stated that cables possessing variations in electrical measurement could sound different from one another. I'm also no more predisposed to psychological bias than someone who just spent a bundle on a cable and expects or anticipates an improvement in their system. Who would spend the money hoping NOT to hear an improvement? Additionally, I attempted to speak for no one else here. What others hear or don't hear is their own business; just sharing an opinion.
P.S. This thread has been civil so far, but this topic often degrades quickly into 'you're an idiot', 'you're deaf', or 'your system sucks', etc, so let's just agree to disagree and stuff all those nasty little worms back into the can.
LT - You said: "please don't tell me your hearing is more acute than electronic test equipment!"
Umm...I've gotta tell you: Your hearing is more acute than electronic test equipment. (So is mine and everyone else's whose hearing is reasonably intact.) In certain, important ways, that is. Think about it a bit - you already know what I'm talking about.
Your post seems to imply that you have never heard any differences between any wires at any position in a system. Well, consider yourself lucky or cursed, but you are psychologically predisposed not to, and your experience can't disprove what might be true for others. (Oh, and there are measureable differences among cables. And unlike some other kinds of powerline tweaks, some pretty plausible theoretical points can be made for why aftermarket powercords could make a positive difference.)
But I won't argue with you on the price vs. value issue, except to say that it is not unique to the cable segment of the high end.
You're right, Loonytunz. If you can't hear the difference between different power cords, no one else can either. Anyone who says he can is delusional or terminally stupid. You are, after all, the ultimate authority on what each of us is capable of hearing. :-)
Loony, although I agree with your assessment that the power cord issue sometimes resembles the hysteria over UFOs or blood-weeping statues, many on these forums swear that they hear a difference. My experience has been that, in comparison to badly made stock cords, these boutique cords do make a small but significant difference on the sound I get from my components.
The instalation of dedicated lines made the biggest difference by far on the sound I am hearing. This was, for me, night and day. After auditioning power cords in the range of $59 to $1200 over the past 2 years, I have been unable to detect much difference except in comparison to the stock cords. A well made cord using good workmanship and solidly built wire can be found in the $100-$200 range (in some cases) even less. Better built connectors do add to the cost of making PCs and in some cases are worth it.
It's been my experience that every time I have purchased better built and designed gear than what I previously owned the sound did indeed improve. Also, like you mentioned, room treatments were a major step in the search for better sound.
There is no point of changing anyone's mind if they swear by the mega-bucks models. It's their money and God bless them. There are a handfull of manufacturers that will actually tell you in print what are the materials and techniques used in building their cables. The majority though, provide you with science fiction hyperbole adorned with adjectives usually reserved for cuisine books and celebrity-named perfume.
Hoping myself to reap the financial benefits of audio makebelieve, I have applied for a patent for a new PC to be named, La Fata Morgana. I am almost finished composing the advertizing copy and the wire will be provided by a Spanish company by the name of, El depósito de casa. I will use a scantily clad, redhaired nymphet to adorn the jacket and, at this time, plan on an introductory price of $12,000/per meter. It will be manufactured to interface with all electrical gear and also may be inflated (or blown) and taken to bed. (Buy more than one and fulfill all your fantasies.)
I do try to keep an open mind. Truly, there are any number of phenomena on this Earth that science cannot explain, I just don't believe that basic electron theory is one of them. That said, I have 'auditioned', for lack of a better word, a number of cables of various uses and price points, to no avail. I heard nothing that would make me want to open my wallet.
I don't completely discount the possibility that cabling in the signal chain, or even an AC supply cable can make a sonic difference, whether for better or worse. The caveat is: there MUST be a measurable difference in electrical parameters to explain it, else we're searching for bigfoot or the loch ness monster(they might exist, there's just no proof.)
Otherwise, I stand by my (outspoken?) opinion. At least we agree on outrageous prices!
Loony, you need to go listen for yourself. I would have never thought a power cord could make a sonic difference, but it does. Maybe you should read some of Mike VansEvers papers on the subject? I do agree that the pricing on some of this stuff is insane.
Absolute snake oil. There is nothing in this world short of making it out of platinum that could possibly justify an IEC cable costing $1500 or more. Or any cable, for that matter. If you have money to throw away on such things, hats off to you. As long as you're happy.
Personally, I'd rather apply that money to the acoustics in my listening room (one of the most overlooked, but 'hearable' tweaks you will ever apply), or more media.
The notion that you can 'hear' an AC cable flys in the face of common sense. There have been too many failed 'blind' tests, convincing test data (please don't tell me your hearing is more acute than electronic test equipment!) and not to mention the laws of physics . Those reasons alone should be enough to explain away any desire to purchase this stuff. Couple that with the complete lack of eveidence supplied by the manufacturers (if they actually DO manufacture their own cable. Most DO NOT!) to back up their claims and there you have a good old fashined bottle of Doctor Bob's cure-all tonic!
Ok guys, go ahead and shoot me ;) Just expressing my opinion (which is based upon my education, background and some reasonable research into the subject, not on rituals involving chicken blood or anything like that.)
I have found that there are some circumstances that does make it harder to hear the differences in power cords, the main one being that the better the interconnects and speaker cords are the more of the subtle detail changes you'll hear from power cords. I always recommend that the i/c's and speaker wire be brought into high form before spending money on power cords.
I apparently have a system component list that does a very good job of displaying differences because I certainly get customers spending a lot of time listening to just the difference a power cord makes. It is never a question of is the difference there, only is it worth the extra money. There are many pricey power cords that to me cause detrimental effects to the character of the sound so perhaps you have a couple of problems. You may need better interconnects and speaker wire, and you may not have some of the best recognized power cords.
I sold over 30 $1500 Kaptovators in one year, all with a money back guarantee, I never took one back except where they wanted to trade it toward a $3500 Aluminata.
There are simply too many reviewers working for mags that base their philosophy on only showcasing worthwhile (read good value) products that swear by power cords. I personally say that when your system is in fine synergy there is no other upgrade that offers better performance to dollars spent ratio. Because you can't hear it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
By the way, when Joe at JPS first suggested I try his $1500 power cord my response was to say get the #%^ out of here! There was no way I could justify that kind of money. I tried one on a Belles 150-A hotrod and sat there with my jaw hanging open. I then showed it to a customer buying the 150-A and he bought one!
Steve: Great question! We spent years on that one. There is a conflict between the 60HZ and the mechanical resonance of the conductor, this creates the problem. Rectification and filtering will not solve it. The solution is proprietary but we can discuss the problem in greater depth when I get back from Vegas.
I'd like to know what does it matter if the PC is "resonating". How many dB down is any aberation of the 60Hz wave?. A bit of rectification and filtering should cure that.
Is there at least a theory to explain that relationship?
I cant spend much time with this answer we are preparing for demonstration at T.H.E. SHOW in Las Vegas. Geoffait: With all due respect your post is the horns of the problem. Resonance *IS* energy and when it is changed the manifestation becomes altered. Resonance is the tune the universe is dancing to. .Nikola Tesla Subaruguru: We have friends that make and sell amplifiers; the time involved in construction is about the same as one of our power cables. Our top of the line model takes about a week to construct.
Corona: Those words you addressed to me in your last post impress me as being completely devoid of meaning, but if you feel the need to expound further, please address the whole forum, so I don't feel obligated to respond personally if I perceive you the same way again.
Ok, let's get simple here and assume that resonance control is the next big thing, and that part of it involves the total length (organ pipe) primary resonance. How do you individually tune out this resonance for EACH different length of PC? Are you going to use a different construction according to the length of PC ordered, or vary the thickness/length ratio to arrive at a preferred (set of) null(s)? Just a thought. Maybe with 45 secret ingredients there's a recipe for building each different length of cable? Wow. And is the design goal to completely neutralize PC involvement, mimicking a zero-length PC? If not, then are we to assume that your PC somehow magically IMPROVES upon no PC? How? By "unvibrating" or "counter-vibrating" the universe?...or at least the AC presented at a duplex outlet? Phew. Hope it's not just spectral tilt, lumpiness, top-octave rolling or weird phasiness effects like so many others. Tell us HOW it sounds "different", and more importantly, why that's better, if you could. And please, why it should cost more than $250.... My product-evolution direction has combined an antiresonance construction (certainly rudimentary compared to string theory!) using among previous aspects a huge non-magnetic, compact heat-sinking "bath" that simply reduces the need (perceived or real) for huge conductors, as subtle temperature-rise is believed to be detrimental to audio performance. I posited these anri-rez arguments to a guitar and piezo-pickup manufacturer friend of mine. He laughed, recounting stories about some of the string-makers tricks, including playing with cryo years back (didn't work). I'm going to give him a couple of my PCs to try on his products, knowing full well the corporate heart is behind getting DSPs built into pickups so that a guitar-player can simply push a button and mimic ANY guitar string or manufacturer/model sound at will. We laughed that it could be done for loudspeakers, too. Imagine buying a "universal" speaker that you could punch in spectral and phase info into to choose among a bunch of favorites? Anathema to us 'philes, but believe me that's the direction even in upscale pro-music audio....
The units of energy (Joule) are Kg-m x m per second x second, where kg is mass, m is distance, and seconds are unit of time. Thus, the (only) factors that can be involved in changing energy (decreasing or increasing it) are mass, distance and time. Since resonance (cycles per second) is not a term in the expression for energy, energy must be independent from resonance. Anyone agree or disagree?
Zaikesman: The central issues are: 1. Is resonance the fundamental essence or energy of the universe? 2. Does the alteration of resonance create a change in energy? After many years of testing we came to the conclusion the answer is yes to both questions. Thereafter we discovered that String Theory encompassed the same ideas.
Audio Application: All electromagnetic phenomenons are based on resonance; change resonance and energy is transformed.
JB, be sure to keep track of the distinction between a marketing angle that impresses as 'snake oil', and the entirely separate issue of whether the product itself might be described as such.
In my own system, when I got my Levinson 380S preamp - which is not entirely friendly to aftermarket PC's due to its requirement for a right-angle IEC plug, connected on the unit's underside - I asked some dealers who handled the line whether in their experience the piece responded to upgraded PC's. Several sources opined that the internal power supply was so good that no improvement would be heard, and not to worry about a PC change. I wondered if this was a position taken as much out of convenience as of conviction or experimentation, so I persisted until I got another dealer to admit that, yes, it could make a small but worthwhile improvement, but since telling a customer so just created a dissatisfaction that wasn't easily addressed, the other story prevailed. (In fact, the story I heard from all the others was so consistent that I began to suspect that maybe ML reps had hipped them to it as a method of deflecting a predictable objection.) So I decided to prop up my 380S on top of some temporary improvised supports which would allow a straight-plugged cord room to exit without excessive bending and listen for myself. Sure enough, just as I've found with all my other gear, a better cord did indeed make a difference, though in this case the improvement was definitely toward the lesser end of the scale. I think better-designed power supplies can help avoid excessively bad effects from using stock PC's, but I'm not sure it's possible in electronic gear to design-out upgrade-PC benefits completely.
"Audioengr stated that from his experience, correct design or modification of power supplies greatly reduces power cord colorations"
I think that most people who examine the SimAudio P-5 power supply would consider it a state of the art piece, housed within it's own chassis, connected to the line stage itself by a balanced cable. And yet, as well designed as this pre-amp is, when I replaced the stock power cord with a Sahuaro Ampthrilla, the change in sonics, soundstage depth and width, and overall tonal details, all increased when the Sahuaro power cord was put on, and decreased when the stock cord went back on. Don't know about other brands, but from repeated use with various components, Sahuaro ain't no snake oil :) Of course it could all be in my head, but you know what, it still gives me the same results everytime so...if it takes buying some snake oil to make the magic happen, yabba dabba do :)
I think... still think.. one of the most important non-Corona-related points on this thread is as follows:
Most systems respond to power cords, often far too much so -
The original poster of this thread, long forgotten, stated that power cords did not produce audible differences in his system.
Audioengr stated that from his experience, correct design or modification of power supplies greatly reduces power cord colorations.
If mods of this sort can be demonstrated and quantized, it should lead to next generation equipment with less performance variability. The best way to defeat the need for expensive cables is to define conditions where they become unnecessary.
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