Pleasurably better, not measurably better

@westcoastaudiophile 

You can't baby, you can only measure lust.  🤣

Serious answer though is that there's a tremendous amount of scientific work on human preference and perception.  As you might imagine, much of it is geared to product development.

It is funny when trying to discuss any subject with nuance how many will misread the intention or position of the OP (i.e. me).

I’m not saying measurements are not useful, I’m declaring what makes them useful is when they serve the purpose of enhancing my sensual experience. The hierarchical order is what I am trying to point out, not a tyranny of one and absence of the other.

Listening to music is my pleasure, much like a meal. It is not my job. It is not a mathematical exercise in assembling very expensive components together so I can accurately see the color of Jupiter’s moons.

Given the recording chain, the variable fads in recording and reproduction over the decades, and the near impossibility of 2 speakers reproducing a complicated soundfield I don’t believe accuracy at the listener location, or even neutrality, is possible. I do not experience sound like an oscilloscope or measurement instrument. I will not put them on a sacred platform as to why or how I choose my gear.

But most people find certain distortions are grating.
There is decades of research, that I do not want to just ignore.

I think what most people ignore is that many measurements were done for convenience, or to ensure equitable comparisons between gear and the research into human preference is not the same research on how to lower distortion in an current mirror.

It’s actually different for different people. I can’t stand Pass sound for instance, who famously adds certain types of distortion.  Many, many love it.  I won’t buy Pass gear because others love it, nor do I avoid it because it has relatively high distortion.

I would happily trade any Pass amp for a Conrad Johnson Premiere 8, which I am sure has higher distortion and even a more limited bandwidth.

This is a great example of what I’m talking about.

My own personal preferences trump both.

i suspect that your “Custom sub integrator‘ integrator thread will be using measurements.

Of course, because it is very hard to deal with bass modes and crossover matching without it, but the final subwoofer level will be what I personally decide.

Someone, somewhere, figured out that statistically people like it when it corrects for the room.

You know, we think that room correction algorithms are exercises in pure math, but they are not. Even when deciding how the algorithms should work, how much of the initial vs. reflected sounds, etc. is... an aesthetic choice made by several different groups of people. The math doesn’t drive the choices. The listening drives the choices of how the algorithms should work for every room correction algorithm.

That is real science. Going from user experience to models and math. That is science. Using 30 year old measurements to determine what is good is not science, it is quality assurance at best, idolatry at worst.

I heard some speaker with the low distortion Purifi drivers, and they were pretty outstanding, so it is not like accuracy and low distortion is bad… 

No, I'm not saying they are either, but that no oscilloscope or calibrated microphone knows the experience you are trying to have, that you want to have, that makes you feel good.

Even if the Cornwall's do other things better, the more neutral 15s allow you to hear the differences between recordings better. 

I've not heard Pure Audio speakers in a very long time, and certainly not these models.  I am however always skeptical when someone says they switched speakers to hear more.  It's usually hearing something DIFFERENT than they did before.  Not saying he's wrong, but this is a claim I've seen a hundred times from a dozen reviewers and IMHO neutrality was not the reason.

"I'm buying gear that makes me feel good."

 

So presumably is everyone else here, though not necessarily by the same route.

Different strokes for different folks.

@cd318 

The difference is that I am consciously declaring it my primary motivator.  Some make "neutrality" or "accuracy" their declared motivator. 

'At best I can achieve a system that sounds good with a wide variety of source materials.'

And just how do you intend to achieve this without measurements and data?

By ear alone?  Without any data whatsoever?

If you read any of my posts you would know I do not make this argument either.  Rather, I declare that my experience trumps engineering standards.  Take a measurement like THD+N.  The argument has been made by many that below a certain level it is not perceivable. So, for instance, for them 0.0001 and 0.01 distortion perform the same way, yet for the spec chaser 0.0001 is "better."

What if I like 2.8% distortion?  Sure, we can measure it, but the engineering goal of lower is not the same as my personal listening goal of making things that sound good to me. 

I am always impressed with the level of precision music listeners will use to modify their spaces to get that perfect sound.

@femoore12 

Speaking only for myself, as usual, I'm not trying to get to perfect sound.  I'm trying to get to a place where music sounds good and the room vanishes.  My investment in speakers, room treatment and DSP is for those two items.  I'm not really concerned with perfect anymore. :)

Also want to point out that Harman, and JBL and I think Floyd Toole have done actual research on audio and human preference.  It is not impossible to research this, and come to an idea about consumer preferences.  It doesn't always align with pure technocracy.

Bose for instance is an organization that, like it or not, knows a lot about consumer listening preferences.  You and I may not fit their demographic, but if you don't believe they know the sound that sells at a store you are sadly mistaken.  Please don't argue Bose good or bose Bad. I only want to talk about Pleasurable research.  it exists, and it's not the same as technocratic quests for minimal this maximal that.  It's quite complicated.

Those deeply engrained in the scientific and engineering communities are disciplined to defend their positions with hard data.

I think there are a lot of people who want to play at being scientists or engineers when they defend their technocratic positions on audio.  The giveaway is when they attempt to make claims about metrics that are simply not in evidence.

Lower THD for instance.  Not proven to sound better and under some circumstances higher may be preferred.  Like measuring the hardness of a metal.  Yes, we can measure hardness, but is harder better?  That's a different issue and judged by application.  Measuring hardness is an engineering discipline, but claiming it is universally better is outside the scope of the discipline.

@asctim Sorry missed that you meant with headphones!! Hahaha. :)

I think you can always deaden a room too much, but generally speaking I have found that room treatment works in the plane you apply it.  That is, if you treat the floor and ceiling it adds height to the image.  If you add behind the speaker and listener it adds depth.

I did a whole thread on first reflection points which was misunderstood I think by many readers.  I don't think room treatments work very well at all until you reach a certain critical mass.  If you ONLY treat first reflection points I can barely hear any benefit at all.  It is only when the room overall has enough treatment to quiet it down that the 1st reflection points matter.

@asctim  - Also, consider ceiling absorbers.  Amazing way to open up the sound.

Above all, I will not abdicate my right to use my personal preferences to a lab instrument, of which I have several here. 😁

I decide what sounds better or worse to me and what is worth more or less money to spend on, not measurement gear or reviewers.

THEY all serve me, not me serving my gear.

Accuracy and long term satisfaction is our common goal, is it not?

No?  First, I don't believe that "accuracy" is really possible in a speaker/room combination outside of the original recording space, nor do I believe the engineers would have mixed to reproduce that space.  Next, if you look at the research undertaken by JBL and Harman over time, speaker makers and measurements were based on human desire, not energy time curves.  Those who misunderstand that always end up with systems far too bright and dry.

Lastly why should I care about accuracy if it isn't more engaging to listen to?

I'm not buying a telescope to measure the distance or size or material composition of a distant star.  I'm not buying a tool to help me measure the amount of chlorine in a pool.  I'm buying gear that makes me feel good.  At best I can achieve a system that sounds good with a wide variety of source materials.

@curiousjim - Yep.  And even among audiophiles this may happen.  I just can't listen comfortably for long to a stereo in a live room.  Many audiphiles absolutely can! I envy them.  To them, my room treatments are worth $0.

@curiousjim You bring up the other side of the extreme.  Systems which measure a lot better, but which for the buyer has no more value. 

This is another case when measurements have no value.  I can't tell that person with a garage stereo my system is worth more if he doesn't actually sense more joy.

@chayro  - You are right and I had to edit my OP to say "technophiles" specifically.  My bad.

@Kenjit You smell butt hurt, cause all you do is bring up non-squitor complain about speakers which you’ve never heard. You on the other hand have gone on and on with BS about your speakers, and never posted anything nearly as comprehensive as I have.

That was fine when you were in fifth grade but now here you are among adults, acting the same way. I don’t know but maybe you want to step up? Might be easier to take you seriously. Otherwise admit you are madly in love with those speakers and they take up all of the space in your head rent-free, cause you bring up my speakers more than I do.  You want them don't you?  You think about them at night and wish to make them yours, but you can't!