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That's what I thought. Audio isn't my specialty. It looks to me like the basic flaw in all these protocols is the failure to embed timing within the protocol. While that would expand the amount of data required & storage requirements at the pit stops, it would put a stop to timing problems. It's an artifact of when data storage was e.x.p.e.n.s.i.v.e.
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Naw, the original PCI interface has more than enough bandwidth to support audio. I have no problems doing 24/192 stereo audio through my old Xonar Essence PCI card. PCI-Express is just overkill and is likely to introduce jitter issues. The crystal clocks and power supply have more to do with audio quality than evolutions in PCI Express. PCI 4.0 will have benefits on graphics cards and stuff like multi-disk RAID controllers where I/O is critical. |
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He's got it on Ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-CX-A5000-11-2-Channel-Preamplifier-Processor-Black/332420837035?hash...
Its the same one. After a couple exchanges, I offered him $825 via Ebay and he didn't get back to me. I might have offended him. Hoping he just left for the day. The market is $600-$850. I can always color up the system with the alternate STX chips. I visited the Audio Ect where I bought the original stuff. They moved to the Mercedes & BMW neighborhood and tacked a zero onto their inventory. Apparently computers keep getting cheaper and audio equipment keeps getting more expensive. |
this one for $872? http://www.tmraudio.com/product/ew-371 I think the Yamaha will be really nice for you, if you get it. I bought both my Krell processor and Oppo player from TMR Audio. They are excellent for service/support of customers. Yeah, don't bother with the daughter card. It's just more DACs and analog outputs that you don't need. |
I knew that. Thanks. I'm negotiating on the Yamaha. Trying to get him down from $950. The Essence STX II arrived today. Didn't get the daughterboard. |
Blue Jean Cable. Get the Beldon 1695A cable at 6 foot. It's $29.25 plus shipping. https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm Otherwise, you need to spend a lot more to get something better. Like a DH Labs D-750 or Wire World Starlight for something like $200. Don't bother with anything stranded. |
What's your go-to source for COAX S/PDIF cable? I don't have any local sources for testing. |
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Auxiinut: I should know better than ask an audiophile what he’s shopping for. What’s $2k among friends? Hey! Found this site while looking up some acronyms: https://www.dcsltd.co.uk I think you'd fit right in. |
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Auxinput: Looks like I'm need to visit the only high end audio sales room in the area to get a listen to the difference between warm and neutral. The place where I bought all this stuff from didn't survive the recession. I agree that the Sony tends towards neutral or slightly bright. It is highly detailed, which matches the NHTs. Someday they'll have bright/neutral/warm settings on these DAC chips!
My only gripe about the Sony EP9ES is that there's some electronic noise that appears above -30dB. This is the nature of the EP9ES from what I've seen in the chatter. I don't find anything written in reviews of next gen preamps, so is it safe to assume that it's been solved along the way? I expect $1000 components to be silent w/o signal.
Did you order the Musiland? I've lost track: are you running one of the Xonars? I'd love to see your A/B testing results. I'd love to save $160 and get the Musiland. |
My experience with Sony was a long time ago. I remember thinking their receivers were very bright/cold/harsh. I think the "ES" level help smooth stuff out, but I always thought they were somewhat sterile, but very clean sounding. I suspect that the Sony fully discrete analog circuits, such your Sony DSP-EP9ES and also like those in the Sony HAP-Z1ES network player will be significantly better. However, I don't think circuits like those would be in the Sony Receivers. Also, Sony only makes receivers. They do not make HT Processors. I do not have any recent experience with Sony, so I could not comment directly. Only theorize. One of the things I like about Marantz processors is that they have fully discrete output stages for their audio with a significant power supply to back that up. The DAC I/V stage is done through an op amp with relatively slow slew rate (further contributing to the Marantz warm signature). It is warm, however, lol. |
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Auxinput: Thanks for the reply.
To help me with choosing between warm and neutral how would you characterize the Sony's sonic signature? |
The Marantz SR6011 is a receiver. I would not recommend spending you money on a receiver since you bought that MC50 amp. That's when I was recommending a "one size fits all" item for under $1,000. Since you bought a nice MC50 multi-channel amp, a receiver would be a waste of money. If your interested in the Marantz "warm" signature, I would recommend looking for the AV7702, or the AV7702mkii if you want the latest 4K HDCD 2.2 support. The processor is going to have much better power supply and analog stages. Plus it also has balanced XLR outputs for the MC50 amp. The receivers will only have RCA. Both the Marantz AV7702 and the Yamaha CX-A5000 are going to be good choices for you. Marantz is going to have more of a warm sonic signature. The Yamaha will be more neutral sounding. |
auxinput:Just had a DOH moment, you gave me a list of pre/pro's to go through. Scrambling to see if I want that
Marantz SR6011 that closes in a couple of hours. |
The Sony is breaking down - output channels cutting in/out, some of the menu functionality has disappeared (most recently test tone only allows on/off/RF/auto). Its getting to be time to order some hardware. I may have one or two of those splitters you indicate in my cable hoard. Will test them.
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those 1/8" audio outputs are stereo line outputs and will need something like this: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=666 or this: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=5598 See page 1-22 of your MOBO manual. The lime/green jack outputs the left/right channels. This is likely going to be lower than SoundBlaster audio quality (which is fine if you are just running basic computer speakers or don't care about audio quality). I think that old Sony processor you have is still going to sound a whole lot better. |
reading your post, I had to laugh at your 4x20AMPs supply. The house I'm in was designed to spec by the original owners. (wierd, wierd, wierd design choices) Whoever signed off (or actually did the work) on the electric didn't make enough runs to the circuit breaker box. The laser printer makes all the USP's yelp when it warms up. I won't go into what happens when the '50 powers up. We're moving soon - I'll sort out the next house. Not worth sorting this one out - they won't spot the idiotic electric in the inspections. I didn't buy the place, and wouldn't have for other reasons besides the electric. The Anthem 50 arrived yesterday. Fun stuff. Reading into the audio of the Z170-A motherboard reveals a few things. http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1151/Z170-A/E10611_Z170-A_UM_V2_WEB.pdf?_ga=2.132761034.53232...It is a 192/24 digital output. I'm going to hook up the analogue outs and compare it to the TOSLINK to see if I care about the acoustic difference. I came across a review (one of the NHT president's rebuttal to a 3rd party review) who pointed out that one's hearing often adapts to & accepts the acoustic signature if it's close enough to one's expectations. Essentially, blame your auditory & nervous system if they costs you six figure audiophile $$$. (You still hear dog whistles and you're 50 years old) So far the Jriver has made the most difference. AFAICT, the jacks take either this: https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=104&cp_id=10429&cs_id=1042902&p_id=7175&seq=1...or these: https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=104&cp_id=10429&cs_id=1042902&p_id=7174&seq=1...I think the computer connections swing both ways electrically and the MOBO & drivers sort out whatever you plug in. Conceivably one could go directly to amps & use the computer gains for volume. |
Did you get your MCA 50 amplifier yet? How does it sound? |
I would go for the Yamaha in these two options. The Anthem runs only from a switching power supply. The Yamaha at least uses a linear power supply for analog sections (it still looks like a switching power supply for digital sections, which is very common). To this day, I have only found that Krell and Bryston use purely linear power supplies. Everyone else I have seen (even Classe Audio) used switching power supplies for digital. There could be others. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/musings-on-switching-power-supplies-lps-for-oppo-directv-radiance Not sure if you've ready my switching power supply thread above, but it's food for thought. |
Must be the special colour dyes. I’d do it if it would replace a good pre/pro. The Sony’s acting terminal. I’m down to between the Anthem AVM 50v and Yamaha Aventage CX-A5000Thoughts? Comments? Peanut shells from the gallery? Additions? |
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@knownothing I'd not heard of Tidal, and now Redbook. Googling around a bit found the CD standard definition for Redbook. Tidal yielded a website of music. Thanks. |
Shalmaeser, I am assuming you are questioning how Tidal could sound similar to Bluray (or 24/196 files)? I will try to clarify. Hi Res material generally sounds better from both multichannel Bluray (HDMI) and Hi Res 2 channel FLAC or AIFF formats (USB), but the general overall character of the sound of Redbook (CD/toslink or files/USB) or "HIFI" quality Tidal streaming source material (USB) is closer to Hi Res sources compared to Redbook from CDs via HDMI in my system. Make sense? I find Tidal can sound pretty good. Clearly better than MP4 or Similar, if not quite as good as Redbook from CD of files for the same content. |
auxinput: I look forward to your youtube video on modding the Musiland! |
Thanks for the links. The odds are good that the 8.1 drivers will work just fine - and probably why they haven't invested in updating them. |
Okay further analysis. The Musiland has TRS85812NL on the RCA and BNC outputs. These are transformers for digital audio data transmission (which is the proper way to output SPDIF): http://www.microchip.ua/trxcom/telecom/np97-100.pdf It does not appear that the Xonar Essence or SEDNA cards have output transformers. It does have a 24.576 crystal clock. Looks like good power supply filter support. Though, if those are through-hole capacitors, I would be pulling those out and replacing with some nice 220uf polymer caps (along with some .1uf MKPs soldered on the back side for high-frequency stabilization). No extra DSP or analog stages. Just a non-nonsense well engineered SPDIF card (based on pictures). It also has a real BNC output (which performs better than RCA for spdif). Technically speaking, this is an excellent option and could very well be better than Xonar Essence. The proof is how well the software drivers actually work and real world listening tests. :) At $60, I may pull the trigger on one of these. Ebay item has extended handling times, but it looks like it is in stock at Shenzhenaudio for $9 more: https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/musiland-digital-times-24bit-192khz-pci-sound-card-spdif-toslink-bnc.html Maybe worth trying? |
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I have used JRiver for several years now and I love it. It is highly configurable. If you have a weird driver/pc/audio situation, odds are that JRiver can be configured to work with it. It supports kernel streaming modes (which may or may not work for you). I currently use Kernal streaming to the Asus Xonar Digital coax output and it sounds better than other modes. These modes will bypass the Windows DirectSound driver layer (which is bad and it forces all audio to one sampling rate output). It also supports playing audio through asio4all driver, which I needed to do when I was outputting to USB. I'm sure you can do other configurations. The DSP stack is awesome, if you need it. I have heard that JPlay is also has great performance, but since I started with JRiver, I never looked at other software. I wonder where you will end up with all this. lol. |
auxinput: edit: I have the Sound Blaster USB external box - the original. TOSLINK before people could spell it! Sometime in the last couple of years they started cranking out updates to the thing like a Pez dispenser! For years they had done NOTHING with the USB external.
I've been auditing PC A/V players. So far nothing stands up to Jriver. The differences between players can be astonishing. It looks like Jriver could use some more work on their user interface, but that could be said about any program. Joke: any program that is complete is obsolete. Given your analysis of HDMI & optical/coax, I'm probably going to be investing in more stuff.
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Wow auxinput, this was a really interesting description of the differences between 2 and multi-channel inputs via coax and HDMI. I have an Arcam receiver that does really well with either analog inputs or HDMI hires from Bluray. My transport has the option to output "raw bitstream" or "PCM" data, and I have a very clear preference for raw bitstream. But the 2channel Redbook output to the DACs in the Arcam via HDMI sounds much less engaging than Bluray through HDMI or 2channel redbook out to external DAC via optical cable and back into the Arcam via analog Interconnect. I couldn't figure out why the character of the sound of the same DACs in the receiver was SO different between low and hi res recordings, and why the same redbook recordings (from the same transport!) sounded so different between the receiver's built in DACs and the external DAC. The character of the external DAC for all resolutions and sources (CDs/optical, Tidal or JRiver/USB) of material was closer to the very fine sound of Bluray recordings processed by the Arcam receiver. Redbook content via HDMI just sounded flat or compressed compared to Redbook via optical. I attributed this to the DACs in the Arcam being optimized for higher res source material, but now I am not so sure it isn't the HDMI interface. |
auxie, baby - you have a secret identity as a product reviewer? Or is this your secret identity when you’re hiding from the fangirls?
I frequently run older drivers in compatibility mode. Usually success is a case-by-case issue. I have a soundblaster USB card and (well, they recently updated the drivers from customer pressure) xbox controllers. |
Wow, that Asus Xonar HDAV looks like a good
find! The “Deluxe” version has good
power supply sections and looks to have good TCXO clocks. However, it appears that Asus only developed
drivers up to Windows 8 for this. (Windows 8.1
and 10 are not supported). The card was
discontinued a while ago. If you are
running Windows 10, the ST / STX / STX II are still supported with new drivers.
I read that article “Why Audio formats
above 16/44.1 don’t matter”. This has
been a controversial subject in the industry.
I will say that several years ago I did some testing. I took a 16/44.1 version of a song (CD audio)
and compared it with a 24/48 version of the same song from the same album
through my Krell HTS 7.1 processor. I
did definitely hear a difference. The CD
version with lower bit depth / bit rate sounded a bit messier. The 24/48 had a cleaner and more solid sound
and the resolution of individual instruments was definitely better. I will say that it needs equipment with very
high resolution. Otherwise, you probably
will not notice any differences.
I also have done some testing recently
comparing both 2-chanel PCM audio and 5.1 DD/DTS through different transfer
mechanisms.
When playing a movie, the Dolby Digital /
DTS is an encoded bitstream that is sent to the processor through a digital
cable such as COAX, optical or HDMI. The
processor will then decode the data and split the data into individual PCM
channels (such as 5.1 channels). It will
then clock the individual PCM words at the proper sampling rate (such as 48khz)
and then sends it to the DAC chip. So,
ultimately, there isn’t much difference between COAX/optical and HDMI for this
transfer. It’s really just data at this
point. However, if you want to be able
to decode and play the bluray hi-res audio formats (Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD MA)
you must do this through an HDMI connection (licensing restricts any
player/software from transmitting this through old spdif coax/optical). If you do use a COAX/optical, the player will
automatically down-convert to old compressed DD/DTS formats. There is a difference in sound quality
here. The compressed stuff sounds very
rough in comparison. The hi-res
TrueHD/DTS-MA will have a smoother and more realistic sound.
When playing 2-channel PCM audio, such as
CD or 24/96 hi-res, the player/transport will take the raw PCM data and clock
it at the proper sampling rate (such as 44.1 / 48 / 96). It will then send this “clocked” data over
the digital cable. The COAX/optical
works well here. However, this is where
HDMI cable will be severely compromised.
The HDMI transfer is not raw bitstream data. It is done in data packet format, which means
these “clocked” PCM frames will be spread across and combined into multiple
HDMI packets. This means the “clocking”
of the audio is already compromised when the processer/DAC tries to “un-wrap”
these HDMI packets and send it to the DAC chip.
So, as a comparison:
2 channel 24/96 through digital COAX. One weird behavior of the Krell processors is
that it down-converts anything coming in from digital spdif to 48khz. I don’t know if other processors do this, but
this has been normal Krell behavior for a long time (they must think it is a
licensing restriction). Even though my
24/96 songs are down-converted to 24/48, the sound is still amazingly
excellent. The sound from COAX just sounds
so much more “natural” and has excellent dynamics and excitement. I love listening through this mode. SIDE NOTE: I have tested my Oppo player
connected to a DAC through digital COAX and the DAC is receiving and playing
24/96 and 24/192 just fine. It’s the
Krell that is down-converting to 48Khz through COAX/optical.
2 channel 24/96 through HDMI (i2s)
interface. On my Krell, this was the
only way to get the Krell to play true 24/96 or 24/192 at those proper sampling
rates. I can hear that the resolution of
the audio is better than 48khz through normal COAX. However, the sound is more “controlled” or “flat”
sounding. There is no real dynamics or
excitement to the sound. Also, the upper
mids are “shouty” and have “blare” which can sound a little painful at times.
So, to sum it up:
Digital COAX/optical – compromised bluray
audio, but excellent 2-channel audio
HDMI – excellent bluray audio, but
compromised 2-channel audio
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People after my heart... "... Since HDMI carries only digital data, streaming these high resolution formats amounts to pulling the digital bits off the Blu-Ray disc and outputting them via HDMI — a simple task that could, should, and probably will soon be done by most... " http://www.silentpcreview.com/Xonar_HDAV |
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By the way, I use a Xonar Essence ST (PCI version). I have played around with upgrading op amps and this definitely improves the audio. However, I am using the Essence card just to do digital COAX output to my external DAC. I do not have any problems with soundstage and the audio is excellent! At this point, the sound quality would depend on the DAC or pre/pro used. |
Hey there, I totally understand wanting to wait and do things one at a time. It appears that the card holds its own in most catagories, but comes up short in catagories such as soundstage.
You might be reading about the card's analog output. I am guessing this is due to the op amps used (STX II uses the MUSES op amps, the original ST/STX used the LM4562 op amps). The soundstage would be improved by upgrading them to something like OPA2211 or AD797, but that's not what you would be using the card for. You would only use the card for digital COAX output. As far as I know, this is the best solution that supports Windows 10. There are other cards, but they are older and limited to Windows 7 (such as M-Audio) or they might not have a proper COAX (using a 1/8" plug for spdif), or they are insanely expensive like the RME Audio card at $1,000. Secondarily will be Bluray formats - still getting up to speed on how who is releasing what music formats on bluray.
No problem. As I said, you would need an HDMI interface for the bluray audio formats. HDMI is the only licensed interface that will support Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA formats. You could do this by getting a video card with HDMI output. I read a little that VLC will support audio through the HDMI output. Other players, such as JRiver or PowerDVD, should support it to. If you used COAX or optical output, the player software would have to down-convert the Dolby TrueHD / DTS-HD MA to the older compressed Dolby Digital or DTS formats before sending the bitstream data out. COAX will still support 2-channel PCM audio up to 24/192. |
Yes, that's my sense of humor.
As for the Krell, the chip is only part of the story - otherwise they would all sound the same, would be a good deal less expensive, and we all would be running PC cards like the STX II. I found the B&H listing. Still mulling over the following:
I'm holding off at least till the Anthem amp gets here to do some A/B testing with the current system. Still kicking around PC card versus pre/pro. The litmus test for the pre/pro is quality of sound over the card. It appears that the card holds its own in most catagories, but comes up short in catagories such as soundstage. Secondarily will be Bluray formats - still getting up to speed on how who is releasing what music formats on bluray. Back in the dark ages, when Fleetwood Mac released The Dance on DVD, my state of the art Pioneer LD-DVD, just a few months old, needed rechipping to handle it.
The anthem 50 pops up occasionally, sales range from 800 to over $1k. There may be opportunity there - it looks to me like prices in the component market are softening.
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Sounds like you got a great deal on the Anthem 50! By the way, did you get one of the Xonar Essence cards? Or are you waiting for a used "ST" to come up for sale? I do see that B&H Photo has a used "STX II" PCIE with the better TCXO clocks for $149 --- I think you are poking fun at the Krell when you say "only does 24-bit/88MHz". Heh. But you gotta remember that this was engineered as a HT processor (where the sampling rate from DVDs were 24 bit / 48Khz). The Krell does have some behavior quirks and I have noticed that it down-converts anything on the COAX input to 48Khz, but it is not engineered as a 2-channel DAC and this was back in 2002 where the idea of hi-res audio (96khz and above) was in infancy. :) |
$8000.00 and the Krell only does 24-bit/88MHz! They should get their money back! |
auxinput: I really do appreciate the input. You've hit upon why I went with separates. Computers have one of the worst depreciation rates in the world. Blame it on Moore's law. Not a good idea to tie it with amplifiers which can last four or five times that. That said, next year they'll make a convergence breakthrough with nanotechnology and screw us all up. Want to know why we have all these stupid electric cars running around? IBM and their work with hard disc drive magnetics. IBM's doubled the magnetic strength of artificial magnets - thus making electric motors efficient enough to stuff into motor/generators for cars. That and a few billion dollars in federal funding.
Now I get to go pre/pro shopping - if only to set up search triggers for the best deal in the world. I got the Anthem for 860 + shipping. |
Those are really old (2001-2002). If you want something newer that is within budget, there is an Integra DHC-60.5 home theater processor on ebay now for $439 from a seller that has 100% positive feedback (csdsl2000). Original retail was $2,000 and it's from around 2013. It supports HDMI and the bluray hi-res audio formats. |
I would probably jump on that Anthem if you
were interested.
I have posted this statement in other
thread, but the HT Processors really don’t keep their value at all because of
the perception that you need the latest and greatest digital decoding / HDMI2.0
/ Atmos, room correction, etc. etc. As a result, the value drops like crazy the
older they get (this is not like 2-channel audio!!!)
Another one you could look at is Krell HTS
7.1. There’s one on audiogon for $850
(original retail $8500). I used one of
these for about 12 years before it died.
The Krell uses fully discrete Class A analog stages with all linear
power supplies (shunt type power supplies).
It sounds absolutely beautiful and it beat newer HDMI processors in
sound quality, even though it was limited to oldschool Dolby Digital / DTS
through DIGITAL COAX. It also has all
7.1 XLR balanced outputs (where the Meridian only has left/center/right).
There are many older HT pre/pros that are
of excellent sound quality, but don’t support the new HDMI / bluray stuff.
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Looking at pre/pro's. Bizarre that I can find a Meridian 568 for $600 with a $6,500 MSRP. Reviewers consider it neutral - which I consider a plus due to all the other possible coloration. It also has some balanced outputs. Might buy it just to own something that's well into 4 figures.
I've found an anthem 50 that's sub $1000.
Outlaw 990 goes for $250 with an $1000 MSRP. Seems to be in the same class as the Anthem.
Anyone with more suggestions based on the NHTs and the Anthem amp? |
