Picking an amplifier
auxinputs: What's the first thing we discover as we climb the wall of audiophile? Excellent music is harder to find than good equipment. Thanks for the links. (snoopy happy dance) I've wandered through jazz from time to time. Even looked through a hot mess that was an extensive history of jazz. It was something like 50 CDs. Ugh. Now I want both the Outlaw for power and the McCormick for detail. Sigh. |
Thanks imhififan. That’s an interesting amp. Update: That's a typo on the NHT, they are the NHT 2.5, not 2.1. (In case anyone searched) Additionally, my source is the Sony DSP-EP9ES optically connected to my Z170-A (LGA1151) motherboard. Apparently the source matters to some amplifiers. |
Auxinput: The Bryston's also a heavyweight: their multi channel amps range 75+ lbs. Weight isn't a problem for me. So far the
McCormack appears to be the most thermally efficient of the group. This guy fully dissected the McCormack http://www.iar-80.com/page67.html from the view of a full on audiophile with very deep pockets. The reviews of the
Bryston show some inclination of being too bright in the highs, but that also could be a function which speakers are involved. |
Auxinput: What’s the difference between sterile and neutral? A distinction w/o a difference? Happy you found a sweet spot in your journey. Maybe we should talk music. Here’s some music I love: Bob&Tom recordings on YouTube of "Here Come the Mummies". I’m disappointed with HCTM CDs because they epitomize the term sterile - the difference is The Wall of Sound and isolated studio performance. The phrase "wall of sound" came to represent the effect of crowding all the musicians into one room where they would get into each other’s microphones. This effect was prominent when studio artists were producing nearly all the music for public consumption. http://www.wreckingcrewfilm.com/ Fleetwood Mac’s DVD performance of The Dance. Led Zeppelin frustrates me because they never mic’ed up and produced for detail. Ironically, they used tube amplifiers in their farewell concert "Celebration Day". Eric Clapton’s unplugged version of Layla. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtxO1gwbHPQ Johnny Cash - God Will Cut you down https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJlN9jdQFSc You’ll Never Leave Harlan Alive featuring Ruby Friedman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiE_Bk8FOY0 Warren Zevon - Keep Me In Your Heart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiE_Bk8FOY0 |
Auxinputs: Live At The Olympia Paris comes in BluRay & DVD. Has anyone heard both? I can get Parasound A23 for under $1K used. I’m interviewing local repair people about the NADs - can use them for sub & center. Is it wrong/bad/crazy/evil to mix manufacturers? Will there be electron flow from crossing the streams? |
auxinput: you mean this? Anthem AVM 50 Home Theater Preamplifier / Processor; I'm riding my Sony DSP-EP9ES till it dies. I see I left it out of my original post. |
Auxinput: I have both, just checking to see if anyone thought there’s a difference between the Bluray & DVD audio. Home theater.... As an audience we’re lucky if they get the production mix of stereo right. I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve come tracked down a group in a soundtrack that was well produced, only to find out that the rest of their material is garage band stuff. The movie Roadhouse - Jeff Healey band is an example. DVD movie titles have me running out of batteries in the remote as they play stupid games with the audio. Home theater is 5.1 more ways for hollywood to screw up. I wouldn’t bother with home theater video if it were’t for exceptional movies that come along once or twice a year. Mostly it’s an excuse to have more speaker sizes and a really, really, really, really good 40" 4K IPS monitor. If I were to sum things up, detail, accuracy and power work for me. That lets the source do its thing w/o any barriers. Engineering joke: speed, cost, quality: choose two. |
Having a blast going through everyone's ideas. I'm likely to keep the PC as the data source connected optically/COAX to a pre/pro. Computers have plenty of software for equalization & effects. Until it goes through a DAC, it's still data. What do you get when you breed a neutral amp to a warm speaker? What do you get when you breed a warm amp to a neutral speaker? What do you get when you breed a warm amp to a warm speaker? Is warm accumulative? Warm + warm = even warmer? I'm guessing: warm drifts the result. It doesn't seem reasonable that neutral in a speaker puts the neutral back into the result. |
Motherboard: Asus Z170-A (LGA1151) motherboard has optical link by RealTek->Sony DSP-EP9ES Windows 10 Browsers: Chrome, IE Videos are on VLC media player unless it's a bizarre format, then I either find a codec or dig up something that handles it native. Realtek & VLC player have various EQ & audio modifiers (ambiance, compression, room correction, DTS Studiosound, DTS settings) Most of the time I find that the audio hardware & Sony settings suits my taste w/o modification. Optical outs on MOBOs are almost a unicorn. Right now I see 10 on Newegg (out of hundreds) I'm looking around for a site that reviews the various DAC chips. A site that contains a list of who's using what classes of amps by model. We have such a thing for various computer components. Hard disk drives, motherboards, etc. |
Fun and games understanding audio: http://h-cat.com/images/H_CAT_White_Paper.pdf And the winner is: https://www.audiostream.com/content/holo-spring-dac-level-1 " Holy crap! I'd plugged in nine devices just to get my file to the DAC. But I had to admit that the sound and musical connection this Rube Goldberg playback chain provided was immensely better than what was possible with a laptop or even most dedicated servers connected directly to the DAC." I'm losing count of the papers written on the dubious digital improvements over vinyl->amplifier->speakers. It gets worse: most of the DACs don't improve on the original DAC technology. The improvements come from a host of analogue pre/post DAC fiddling at great expense. |
auxinput: I've resolved one problem I've been having - every once in a while windows OS & software demonstrates its dubious roots of lack of 7x24 orientation and things need rebooting. (Microsoft: 3rd rate software company with top shelf marketing and lawyers) It happens less and less frequently and sometimes it appears to be hardware related. If civilization was created the same way which software is, the first woodpecker to come along would be the end of civilization. The other amp just needs someone to go through it and find whatever's going on. Thanks for the update on the digital world. Eventually MOBOs will fold a decent DAC into the consumer level. Until then, Rube Goldberg lives! I think I've got a PCI card slot free. If not, I'm building another computer soon and will configure it appropriately for the AV room. I'm waiting on upgrading the Sony till I can drop another $1K on a component. So far the Anthem 5/50 amps are very appealing. The professional reviews and consumer comments have negligible negatives and it's amazing how excited people get when they are writing about them. Or someone worked very hard to organize a positive campaign. |
Is there anyone here who has used
AudioQuest Diamond OptiLink 1.5m (4.92 ft.) Optical Audio Cable? Was it an improvement? |
I couldn't resist tossing in that $500 toslink. The debate is amazing. (don't bother clicking through all these links, the last one makes a comprehensive analysis. I'm entertaining myself) Toslink VS RCA: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/toslink/toslink_2.html If these guys are to be believed, bad Toslink cables are return-to-sender (dey be broke), but the rest are indistinguishable from RCA. And yet.... Optical VS coax: https://www.cnet.com/news/the-audiophiliac-asks-the-experts-do-digital-audio-connections-sound-diffe... Then there are the diapers crowd (it DEPENDS) https://www.head-fi.org/threads/digital-coax-vs-toslink-optical-need-answers.352889/ And finally, the it's the clocks trailing by an atomic clock carbon fibre second and Auxinput winning in a video tape reviewed victory: http://www.lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/TRANSPORT/CD_transport_DIY.html |
Speaking of reflections & interference. We were developing RF communications on the bleeding edge. People were sending us stuff hot off their press. RF end-user communications was transitioning from RS-232 speeds to the current WIFI standards. We were demoing our receiving&inventory system for the first time. I was the programmer/analyst for the wireless stuff. The president of the company (a former NCR division director) came blasting out of the demo looking for me. "IT DOESN’T WORK". None of us ever said to him "It works for me." (more than once) He handed me the unit. Oh yeah, it worked. He turns his favorite shade of red, it was a multi million dollar contract. "Show me where you were standing while you were using it in the demo". He should stop dealing directly with programmers. Bad for his blood pressure. Yup. Right beside the base station. Inside the proscribed 2ft limit. Looking at the Xonars, is this the chip you’re talking about? http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASUS-Xonar-DS-7-1-Channels-PCI-Interface-Audio-Card-/222668212398?epid=79630... I verified that I a free PCI slot on this MOBO. It might have been parked under one of the video cards (the two slot cards are awkward at times) |
2psyop: It means you like your sex hot, your skulduggery and murder barbaric, and your courts liberal. Don’t know what to make of Vikings - don’t follow it. Does your mate wear armor & horns? I’m beginning to see a theme in audiophiles: Jazz is about the tonality and fidelity - individually well played notes. Give them a pitch perfect voice, a couple of stringed instruments noodling along on their own, finishing together and an audiophile will follow you anywhere. I think seeing a live competitive marching band (Shadow Company forever!) would explode heads. http://www.dci.org/ |
@knownothing Thanks for the link. I never did buy into the super connector concept at any level, even in the copper wire days - and my research into audio fibre optics confirmed that. There are minimums of fit, finish, and conductors required by communication standards. However that doesn't mean manufactures haven't been reading their P.T. Barnum: There's a sucker born every minute. |
Looking at pre/pro's. Bizarre that I can find a Meridian 568 for $600 with a $6,500 MSRP. Reviewers consider it neutral - which I consider a plus due to all the other possible coloration. It also has some balanced outputs. Might buy it just to own something that's well into 4 figures. I've found an anthem 50 that's sub $1000. Outlaw 990 goes for $250 with an $1000 MSRP. Seems to be in the same class as the Anthem. Anyone with more suggestions based on the NHTs and the Anthem amp? |
auxinput: I really do appreciate the input. You've hit upon why I went with separates. Computers have one of the worst depreciation rates in the world. Blame it on Moore's law. Not a good idea to tie it with amplifiers which can last four or five times that. That said, next year they'll make a convergence breakthrough with nanotechnology and screw us all up. Want to know why we have all these stupid electric cars running around? IBM and their work with hard disc drive magnetics. IBM's doubled the magnetic strength of artificial magnets - thus making electric motors efficient enough to stuff into motor/generators for cars. That and a few billion dollars in federal funding. Now I get to go pre/pro shopping - if only to set up search triggers for the best deal in the world. I got the Anthem for 860 + shipping. |
Yes, that's my sense of humor. As for the Krell, the chip is only part of the story - otherwise they would all sound the same, would be a good deal less expensive, and we all would be running PC cards like the STX II. I found the B&H listing. Still mulling over the following: I'm holding off at least till the Anthem amp gets here to do some A/B testing with the current system. Still kicking around PC card versus pre/pro. The litmus test for the pre/pro is quality of sound over the card. It appears that the card holds its own in most catagories, but comes up short in catagories such as soundstage. Secondarily will be Bluray formats - still getting up to speed on how who is releasing what music formats on bluray. Back in the dark ages, when Fleetwood Mac released The Dance on DVD, my state of the art Pioneer LD-DVD, just a few months old, needed rechipping to handle it. The anthem 50 pops up occasionally, sales range from 800 to over $1k. There may be opportunity there - it looks to me like prices in the component market are softening. |
auxinput: Have you seen this review? Unfortunately they used headphones. Looking forward to your take on it.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-18.html |
People after my heart... "... Since HDMI carries only digital data, streaming these high resolution formats amounts to pulling the digital bits off the Blu-Ray disc and outputting them via HDMI — a simple task that could, should, and probably will soon be done by most... " http://www.silentpcreview.com/Xonar_HDAV |
auxie, baby - you have a secret identity as a product reviewer? Or is this your secret identity when you’re hiding from the fangirls? I frequently run older drivers in compatibility mode. Usually success is a case-by-case issue. I have a soundblaster USB card and (well, they recently updated the drivers from customer pressure) xbox controllers. |
auxinput: edit: I have the Sound Blaster USB external box - the original. TOSLINK before people could spell it! Sometime in the last couple of years they started cranking out updates to the thing like a Pez dispenser! For years they had done NOTHING with the USB external. I've been auditing PC A/V players. So far nothing stands up to Jriver. The differences between players can be astonishing. It looks like Jriver could use some more work on their user interface, but that could be said about any program. Joke: any program that is complete is obsolete. Given your analysis of HDMI & optical/coax, I'm probably going to be investing in more stuff. |
Must be the special colour dyes. I’d do it if it would replace a good pre/pro. The Sony’s acting terminal. I’m down to between the Anthem AVM 50v and Yamaha Aventage CX-A5000 Thoughts? Comments? Peanut shells from the gallery? Additions? |
reading your post, I had to laugh at your 4x20AMPs supply. The house I'm in was designed to spec by the original owners. (wierd, wierd, wierd design choices) Whoever signed off (or actually did the work) on the electric didn't make enough runs to the circuit breaker box. The laser printer makes all the USP's yelp when it warms up. I won't go into what happens when the '50 powers up. We're moving soon - I'll sort out the next house. Not worth sorting this one out - they won't spot the idiotic electric in the inspections. I didn't buy the place, and wouldn't have for other reasons besides the electric. The Anthem 50 arrived yesterday. Fun stuff. Reading into the audio of the Z170-A motherboard reveals a few things. http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/LGA1151/Z170-A/E10611_Z170-A_UM_V2_WEB.pdf?_ga=2.132761034.53232... It is a 192/24 digital output. I'm going to hook up the analogue outs and compare it to the TOSLINK to see if I care about the acoustic difference. I came across a review (one of the NHT president's rebuttal to a 3rd party review) who pointed out that one's hearing often adapts to & accepts the acoustic signature if it's close enough to one's expectations. Essentially, blame your auditory & nervous system if they costs you six figure audiophile $$$. (You still hear dog whistles and you're 50 years old) So far the Jriver has made the most difference. AFAICT, the jacks take either this: https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=104&cp_id=10429&cs_id=1042902&p_id=7175&seq=1... or these: https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=104&cp_id=10429&cs_id=1042902&p_id=7174&seq=1... I think the computer connections swing both ways electrically and the MOBO & drivers sort out whatever you plug in. Conceivably one could go directly to amps & use the computer gains for volume. |
After much rummaging through google, I did find one reviewer who characterized the Sony as "warm". http://trueaudiophile.blogspot.com/2011/07/sony-ep9es-preamplifierdigital-signal.html |
Auxinput: Looks like I'm need to visit the only high end audio sales room in the area to get a listen to the difference between warm and neutral. The place where I bought all this stuff from didn't survive the recession. I agree that the Sony tends towards neutral or slightly bright. It is highly detailed, which matches the NHTs. Someday they'll have bright/neutral/warm settings on these DAC chips! My only gripe about the Sony EP9ES is that there's some electronic noise that appears above -30dB. This is the nature of the EP9ES from what I've seen in the chatter. I don't find anything written in reviews of next gen preamps, so is it safe to assume that it's been solved along the way? I expect $1000 components to be silent w/o signal. Did you order the Musiland? I've lost track: are you running one of the Xonars? I'd love to see your A/B testing results. I'd love to save $160 and get the Musiland. |
Auxiinut: I should know better than ask an audiophile what he’s shopping for. What’s $2k among friends? Hey! Found this site while looking up some acronyms: https://www.dcsltd.co.uk I think you'd fit right in. |
Irony: front row center stereo VS 64 track recording. http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/truth-or-consequences/#comments |
He's got it on Ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-CX-A5000-11-2-Channel-Preamplifier-Processor-Black/332420837035?hash...
Its the same one. After a couple exchanges, I offered him $825 via Ebay and he didn't get back to me. I might have offended him. Hoping he just left for the day. The market is $600-$850. I can always color up the system with the alternate STX chips. I visited the Audio Ect where I bought the original stuff. They moved to the Mercedes & BMW neighborhood and tacked a zero onto their inventory. Apparently computers keep getting cheaper and audio equipment keeps getting more expensive. |
Think this will do anything for PC->(usb)->DAC quality? https://www.extremetech.com/computing/257905-start-engines-pci-express-4-0-standard-officially-relea... |
That's what I thought. Audio isn't my specialty. It looks to me like the basic flaw in all these protocols is the failure to embed timing within the protocol. While that would expand the amount of data required & storage requirements at the pit stops, it would put a stop to timing problems. It's an artifact of when data storage was e.x.p.e.n.s.i.v.e. |
