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Jfz,
Although there is some overlap between the sonic benefits of signal carrying components and the non-signal carrying ones, it's like comparing apples with oranges. So, the way I try to compare them is to ask "Is the degree of improvement resulting from the new power cord on the order of a component upgrade or a tweak?" In the case of the Statement Gold, the enhancement is definitely on the level of a component. Its cost is also on the level of a component, not a tweak. |
Hi Puremusic,
I, too, have upgraded all components other than power cords - over a period of many years and many upgrades. My guess is you may already know this, but when I said something like "I might even say it is the single biggest improvement I've ever made to my system" - referring to the Statement Gold - I wasn't saying it is the best or most important "component" in my system. I was simply saying that it's insertion in place of what I previously owned might have been the biggest improvement I have heard.
In any case, I hope other people have a chance to hear what these amazing cords can do. I don't believe any amount of discussion will ever substitute for listening.
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Mert,
This is what I said several posts ago:
Isn't the point to be enthralled and love the music so much that you want to keep on listening? And isn't an effect on that a good thing ?!
I'm not sure why you didn't respond to those questions, but it doesn't really matter, I suppose. I am enjoying my system immensely, and you are welcome to now think that there is something wrong with my ears. : )
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Argyro: I am not upset at all : ) (I'm not sure why you thought I was) My only point was that the Statement Gold has made my experience of listening to music far more enjoyable - by leaps and bounds. It's not an opinion. It's the way my system makes me feel. |
I will cut the chase short: Powercords must be last thing you may deal as long as you setup a system.......before reducing EM/RFI, we need to match electronics and speaker, then interconnects, speaker cables........the voltage must come before the contaminated AC. Mert, I totally agree with all these statements. In the last 18 months I completely upgraded my system. I first changed my amp and speakers. The Boulder 2060 amp replaced the Jadis JA80 mono blocks. And the Wilson Maxx2 replaced the Watt/Puppy/WHOW. I have heard the Maxx2/Boulder 2060 combination in 3 different rooms. It's an excellent combo. Next, I had my APL HiFi NWO-2.5T digital upgraded to the NWO-3.0SE (20DACs per channel, tube output stage,etc.). Then I upgraded my Kubala-Sosna Emotion interconnects and speaker cables to the Kubala-Sosna Elation series and replaced my Sound Application RLS AC conditioner with the Pure Power 2000 re-generator. The Pure Power puts out a constant 120 volts with a very pure 60Hz sine wave. All my components performed better through Pure Power than going directly to the wall. Next, I replaced the Elrod Statement power cords with his Statement Gold and was shocked how my excellent sounding system was transformed into a phenomenal one. Then I replaced my Critical Mass Systems (CMS) Grand Master Black label platforms to the CMS QXK racks. Next, I installed the Nordost QX4 in the system and upgraded my NWO again to 4.0SE version. With the new system complete, I retested my choices and configuration to see if the recent changes affected my previous choices. Finally, I tweaked the system with a few tweaks. It's been an educational experience. Information exchanges on the audio forums has been helpful. Good luck with your sonic adventures. |
Puremusic,
As much as we speak, we learn something from each other I guess. Normaly, I don't speak very detailed and choose rounded words if someone asks me about a specific component and cables. The reason is doing that is everybody has own brain and ear reference. Plus, I don' hesitate to tell you that I am not a hardcore Audiophile.
However, beginning from early childhood, I have passion towards electronics. Since both is sticked to each other, that's why I am here. Plus, I do own a proaudio system and like to play as DJ. This enabled me have experience a lot. (combining Hi-End and Proaudio, specialy filters and interconnects, powercords.)
I will cut the chase short: Powercords must be last thing you may deal as long as you setup a system.
''According to what you mean by mismatch, would you agree that it's also possible to have a "mismatch" between the contaminated AC and the electronic components? If you agree that such mismatch is possible, then would you agree that it's possible to significantly improve this mismatch by reducing that contaminating noise sufficiently?''
Well, as I said, before reducing EM/RFI, we need to match electronics and speaker, then interconnects, speaker cables. You can't know what is missing or more unless you plug directly to wall with stock cords.
In addition, the voltage must come before the contaminated AC. |
Pure Music, there are many things that count when making a good power cable! RFI, EMF protection, vibration control, the material of the conductor etc! Even cable makers admit that if using too much or too little protection against those things changes the sound making it darker, brighter etc.! So in a say yes, they act as equalizers! For example there are people that believe that all power cables should be completely unshielded! ;)
I am not against power cables I just think that most of them are tuning tweaks!
Happy Listening
mike |
If result is a jaw dropping, or night or day, hell or paradise, then, it means something wrong(not matched) particular electronics. Mert, Among other things, it could *also* mean that the specific technology designed into the power cord to reduce EM/RFI noise is working *very* effectively. Besides your previous post's suspicion about the owner's ears, you are insisting that mismatch is the only explanation for large sonic differences that power cords can make. Perhaps there is a semantic issue here in what you mean by mismatch.....what you would include under that term. According to what you mean by mismatch, would you agree that it's also possible to have a "mismatch" between the contaminated AC and the electronic components? If you agree that such mismatch is possible, then would you agree that it's possible to significantly improve this mismatch by reducing that contaminating noise sufficiently? |
Regarding my last post, I do not try to tell that powercords make no difference, yes, it makes difference in positive way, but there are always trade offs. If result is a jaw dropping, or night or day, hell or paradise, then, it means something wrong(not matched) particular electronics.
Almost all of us use some powercords, expensive, cheap, gold, copper, silver based but the purpose must be only slightly changing the taste but not overall presentation. |
jfz said
''I also have used the Elrod Signature cords and many others over the years. NOTHING, however, prepared me for the diffence I heard when I inserted the Statement Gold into my system. In fact, I might even say it is the single biggest improvement I've ever made to my system.''
if a setup is ''so dependable'' to Powercord, if a powercord, no matter how expensive, perfect, ODIN or Elrod can make difference, I may say either system owner's ears are not 100 percent effectively or combination of equipments is not properly choosen. |
they act as equalizers Argyro, What is *wrong* with even the super high-end audio systems is the contaminated AC and an atmosphere full of RFI. And the high-end market is full of products, including conditioners and special power cords, that are aimed at solving those problems at every link in the chain from the circuit box to the speakers. Also, usually the word "equalizer" refers to a devise in the audio signal path. So, your conjecture/belief about power cords would be more appropriate for interconnects and speaker cables. Since the audio signal path does not go through the power cords, the cords cannot act *directly* on the audio signal. However, some power cords, like the Elrod Statement Gold, are designed to reduce noise on the AC stream. The lower noise floor then allows the components to reveal what was masked by the noise. Therefore, power cords can *indirectly* affect the sonic presentation. Perhaps, you are using the word "equalizer" in a very loose sense to include anything that affects the sound, directly or indirectly. Since barometric pressure, temperature and humidity affect sound, would you call these equalizers? To avoid uninteresting semantics, I prefer the more traditional use of "equalizer". The goal of every change that I make to my audio system is to increase realism. In the last 4 decades, I attended well over 600 live classical concerts and I'm familiar with how the different instruments can sound. That experience has been most helpful for the evolution of my audio system. In my system, the Elrod Statement Gold power cords significantly increased the sonic realism and my enjoyment. For me, that is an excellent bottom line. |
Hey jfz, no reason to get upset, we all share opinions here... I may be the "deaf" one here...;)
Happy Listening! |
Notwithstanding the fact that I don't see where I said they "provide clean power", Argyro, if my system sounds this much better (and far more like real music...and I find myself looking forward to listening like never before), I *couldn't care less about why* (and don't really know why).
I respectfully, and honestly, hope that you will excuse me if this is my last response to you. I have been simply sharing what I hear, and I don't see the point any more. |
Jfz I do not disagree with your findings...You say they provide clean power, I say that through overdumping or overshielding or oversomething anyway they act as equalizers. Not to mention the possibility of active or passive components in them...
PAD cables are horrible in my opinion for the same reason, they change your sound so so much. |
Mert and Argyro,
I respect and appreciate your thoughts, your experience, and your perspectives. And I cannot add much to Puremusic's statements, except to say - once again - that the proof is in the listening, for me. If you ever have a chance to listen with an Elrod Statement Gold in your system (or maybe with his other latest generation cords...I have no experience with them), you may be as blown away as I was. I too have made all sorts of changes to improve the quality of the power to my system over 40 years of being an audiophile. I also have used the Elrod Signature cords and many others over the years. NOTHING, however, prepared me for the diffence I heard when I inserted the Statement Gold into my system. In fact, I might even say it is the single biggest improvement I've ever made to my system.
Just my perspective and experience, of course. I do not want to be disrespecttul at all ! Having said that, though, I cannot help but laugh when you say that something is wrong with my system. Isn't the point to be enthralled and love the music so much that you want to keep on listening? And isn't an effect on that a good thing ?!
Up-to-date Exemplar modified Denon 3910 CD player
CTC Blowtorch pre-amp
Jeff Rowland 302 amp
Rockport Antares
Elrod Signature power cords and a Statement Gold
Elrod speaker cables
Cerious Technologies ICs
Walker Velocitor
Custom built equipment racks
other tweaks, room treatments, etc. |
Mert,
Congratulations on recognizing that every aspect of the electrical system can influence the sonic presentation. You obviously have an open mind and are willing to experiment. I've been chasing the electrical culprits for the past two decades. Having dedicated lines is not enough. I've worked with my dealer (Rainwater Audio, 843-665-6113) on a number of other improvements. I use the Oyaide R1 wall outlet with the WPZ wall plate and filters (parallel and peizzo electric). I also have the Oyaide R1 outlets on my Pure Power 2000 re-generator. Pure Power puts out a constant 120V/60Hz stream and does not limit the current. Experiments have shown that the AC current converted out of its battery is actually greater than what comes out of the wall. Dampening the vibrations of the electrical system (in the circuit box, at the wall, and on the PCs) further improves the sonics.
And yet, with all of these upgrades, the Elrod Statement Gold power cords made a big difference in my system on every component. How can this be??? 1) RFI originating outside and inside the house is in the air and gets into power cords that are not sufficiently protected from this noise. 2) The components can generate RFI/EMI and pass it on to other components. 3) Some appliances generate noise which gets to the audio components. With a little bit of work, it's not difficult to verify these observations about the effect of RFI/EMI on the electrical system (as well as on interconnects and speaker cables).
For me, the audio forums have been a valuable source of information contributed by audiophiles and a platform for sharing my observations. Thank you for sharing your observations. |
puremusic,
When I bought Krell, I knew it should be directly plugged to AC. I did exactly what factory said, but, I bought an audiophile grade 5KW line AC regulator for entire setup or the line which feeds all living room. Than I changed every fuse to audiophile grade KlangModul(german made) 16-20-32amp. I was not satisfied and changed all of thermic magnetic main circuit breakers of my home and entire building to French Made Merlingerin. (Group Schneider)
It was not enough than I made re-earth grounding of entire building.(than I changed the protection relays of the building again) Lastly, I changed wall outlets to Furutech (FT-SWS (R) Rhodium Plated Non-magnetic pure copper conductors and Carbon fiber finished front plate)in order to feed Isotek Nova and Krell Evo 402. Being honestly, I thought I could change internal wires to Oyaide Tunami bulk but decided to do so later on.
I think I have done enough for clean and uninterrupted electric.( suppose I don't have power filters and cords....)
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Aygyro
A+ to Argyro, nice statement. Btw, you have nice setup, and have very tricky interconnect.(Stealth Indra) |
I agree with Mert. If powercords change your sound so much, you either have a problem with your system or the powercords act as equalizers somehow... Argyro, It seems to me that you agree with Mert's first post but not his secord post. In his second post, he stated that on his dCS Puccini he was happy with some power cords but some other power cords were "so so", "No Chance", or "No Way". Apparently, he noticed that power cords can make a big difference. Given the high quality of his components, it doesn't appear that something is wrong with his system. The same can be said about the components in your system and mine. So, a big difference must be in the kind and quality of electricity the power cord delivers to the component. As a conduit for the flow of electrons, the power cord could degrade or enhance that quality. One way of enhancing the quality of AC is to reduce the noise that rides on the AC stream. Generally, the more noise you reduce, the greater the signal to noise ratio; resulting in clearer and more resolving sonic presentation. The improvement can be as startling as seeing the difference between a VHS and High Definition video. I strongly prefer harmonic textures that are not contaminated with EMI/RFI noise. Fortunately, some power cord manufacturers, like David Elrod, are incorporating more effective noise-reducing technology into their designs. There is nothing more convincing than hearing first hand how great of an effect EMI/RFI have on your audio system. I am not affiliated with the Elrod company. I found the Elrod Statement Gold to be one of two outstanding power cords that were head and shoulders above all others I heard. The other outstanding cord was the Nordost Odin, which was 2 to 3 times more expensive than the Statement Gold. |
I agree with Mert. If powercords change your sound so much, you either have a problem with your system or the powercords act as equalizers somehow... |
Elrod cables are available in Europe as seen in official home page. For the time the distributors are located in France (www.fusion-acoustic.com) and in Greece (www.antihisi.gr). |
Puremusic
''In my book, there is a big difference between being happy and "No Chance". Am I interpreting your words correctly to mean that you are now agreeing that power cords can make a big difference? Or, if you are still standing by your first post, then according to it, are you saying that something is quite wrong with your setup?''
Yes some cords can make a difference but some not. In my case( all the cords I mentioned not LOAN but OWN cables) Acrolink Mexcel 7N-PC7100, Nordost Valhalla, Shunyata Anaconda, MIT Oracle AC-1 didn't work good as I expected. I tested all of them almost every component I had. I still have Acrolink Mexcel cable and recently I gave it second chance and tested with AR Ref 3 but again I had to replug it to dCS Puccini Clock! Nordost Valhalla worked best with Exact Power ep-15a but When I upgraded it to Isotek Nova, then, I sold it right away. Not the Anaconda but Python was my favorite one which did good job with Pass Labs X250.5. But again I replaced python with Anaconda when I bought Krell Evo 402 and ARC Reference 3. However, Anaconda didn't get my vote neither with Krell nor ARC.
Kubala Sosna Emotion is one of the most succesfull power cord I encountered recently. It did quite good with Krell, ARC, dCS. Second one is Purist 25th Anniversary, did work splendidly with Krell, ARC and dCS. (I already mentioned about Elrod)
But this is not point.....you may enjoy with Elrod Gold Statement powercord. Maybe it is best match with Boulder 2060. Yes it may removes another layer of noise from Ac line. But I don't need it. The guy who started this topic needs. And Already stated that Elrod is not available in Europe.So? |
Correction to a typo in my first post above: I have 3 Golds not 5. Mert, In your first post, you wrote: if powercords change the things such a magnitude that you describe, it means something quite wrong with your setups! However, in your second post, you stated that on your dCS Puccini you were happy with 2 power cords, but some other power cords were "so so", "No Chance", or "No Way". For instance, let's take dCS as example: I could use Elrod and Purist 25th Anniversary happily, Kubala Sosna Emotion so so, Shunyata Helix Anaconda No Chance, Nordost Valhalla only 5 minutes, Acrolink Mexcel 7N-PC-7100 Mosquito sound,..........No Way! In my book, there is a big difference between being happy and "No Chance". Am I interpreting your words correctly to mean that you are now agreeing that power cords can make a big difference? Or, if you are still standing by your first post, then according to it, are you saying that something is quite wrong with your setup? Based on my experience with some very fine components, I agree with you that "if setup is good, it will be ''good'' with stock powercords." However, for my personal taste and my highly resolving system, "good" isn't good enough. Actually, my Boulder 2060 amp sounded better than good with its stock power cord. But the Elrod EPS 3 Sig added more fullness, power, and better flow. I agree with you that the EPS 3 is a fine PC. But it gave me only a taste of what the Elrod Statement gave me on the Boulder. And when I added the Elrod Statement Gold to the Boulder 2060, I got a shockingly pleasant surprise: incredible cleanliness and clarity, rich organic fullness and coherence, pinpoint imaging in a vast 3 dimensional space, nuance and delicacy, richer harmonic texture, and jaw dropping fluidity. The added sonic value was well worth the cost of the Gold. I had similar experiences when I added 2 more Golds for my APL Hi-Fi NWO 4.0SE CD player and the Pure Power 2000 re-generator. That does not mean that the old Statement is not a good PC. It's an excellent PC. Amongst the PCs I was exposed to, it's the best at it's price point. But the Statement Gold removes another layer of noise from the AC juice, increases the signal to noise ratio, and allows the audio system to reveal more fully what it is capable of. It's in a higher league. |
I do not realy understand why audiophiles al over the world are intend to pay huge amound of money for a source or amplification system and the same time they invent their own "algorithm" to prove that they shouldn'd spend more than --% of the total cost of the system for cables (and equipment stands as well). Is it because magazines include them in the list of "accesories", "tweaks" or "other"? Is it because we buy mostly because of reading instead of listening? I believe both! Well, the are not accesories for sure. They are components of the system with equal importance and most of the times any misbehave of our systems is due to these weak chain links. I will never forget the effect of changing cables to my system (I connected the Elrod's Gold Statement PCs and ICs and Gold Signature SCs) or changing equipment stand (I removed top of the line TAOC and put Tandem Audio). Whow!!! One very expensive system transformed to a precious system and that's everything that counts (of cource in my point of view). |
JFZ
I am not here to discuss how new generation Elrod cables perform. I already mentioned here what Elrod cables I had in my setup. I personly think David Elrod maybe is the most honest person in cable business. But this is not the case. I pay premium price for my gear. Let's take dCS as an example. Under normal conditions I expect premium performance from it since it is almost above 20k price range. Why should I say having after replaced its stock cord the one with price ticket above 3k( Elrod or any other)?
dCS was very bad? but having changed its powercord to Elrod new statement its class marginaly changed to perfect?
I don't know how much I spent for my setup. But I am sure cables got biggest budget and it is unfair! |
Very respectfully, Mert, we can all make our arguments. The "proof" (or at least the "proof" for me) is in the listening. I'd be shocked if you heard one of the new generation Elrod cords and it didn't change your thinking. Without listening, though, how do you know that the new Elrod(s) don't do anything (except pure elect. trans.)? |
have to admit, the KS Emotion is a very musical powercord. The midrange is also fantastic, the backgrounds are very quiet and the top end is smoother than most cables.
Overall, a great PC!! I have not heard of the Elation & the other PC listed.
Good luck! |
Puremusic and penta
I only partialy agree
Yes my setup is highly resolving one as well. I am not against powercords. I still have most of my powercords(upmarket) but I still do own in house modified manufacturers own cords and happily use sometimes. I will not go deeply details but most of the Audiogoners know that I have and had industries most spoken upmarket cords. I only retained ones that do not spoil overall sound. Even if you check my blog you will find out that I had Elrod Eps-2 Sig. together with Dcs Puccini, Boulder 810. Eps-3 Sig. with Exact Power Ep-15. I, many times, here recommended Eps-2 Sig. together with dCS Puccini.
However, any powercord is not supposed to change radicaly the way of sonic performance of particular gear.
For instance, let's take dCS as example: I could use Elrod and Purist 25th Anniversary happily, Kubala Sosna Emotion so so, Shunyata Helix Anaconda No Chance, Nordost Valhalla only 5 minutes, Acrolink Mexcel 7N-PC-7100 Mosquito sound,..........No Way! if it is a ''good cable'', it is supposed to let the gear perform full capacity and not the limit the gear.
Again if setup is good, it will be ''good'' with stock powercords. |
if powercords change the things such a magnitude that you describe, it means something quite wrong with your setups! Mert, The components Newly listed in his system are highly resolving as are those in my system (listed in the link above). Generally, the sonic differences between power cords is made more obvious in highly resolving systems. Also, AC power is usually very contaminated by the appliances and switching devices in your home (and your neighbors' homes). Dedicated lines may reduce the ill effects but can't eliminate them. AC conditioners and filters help to further reduce the noise. Same is true for appropriately designed power cords such as the Elrod Statement Golds. In my case, the Golds reduced the AC noise significantly over and above what my AC re-generator was able to accomplish. Consequently, the signal to noise ratio was increased and all the glorious sonic benefits outlined in my review followed. |
Mert, I believe it's quite opposite. The most accurate, revealing and right setup you have, the most bigger changes you will take back. And Elrod cables is a HUGE one. Beware of setups which do not "answer" to the changes. THEY are realy bad. Wish go back in time to start again. I would buy first a magnificent equipment stand (Tandem Audio is by far the best in a A/B comparison with almost everything in the market) as well as a Elrod Gold Statement set of cables. That day I'd be secure to choose the best source/amp combo for me. |
please forgive me, if powercords change the things such a magnitude that you describe, it means something quite wrong with your setups! The best cable or wire is the one which doesn't do anything! (except pure elect. trans.) |
Newly, Last year I replaced 5 of my Elrod Statement power cords with the new Elrod Statement Golds and was shocked at the phenomenal improvement. For detailed observations, see my review "Elrod Statement Gold PC compared to the old Statement":
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1243482931&openmine&zzPuremusic&4&5#Puremusic |
Caveat: I have not heard the Stealth or the KS.
I have been using EPS Signature cords for years. The new generation of cords is a HUGE improvement over them. As Pentatonia said, I honestly could not believe my ears. Just incredible.
One man's experience...and good luck. |
ELROD!!! Period. You will not believe your ears! |
I'm not sure about the Elrod cords, but I've owned the Stealth and auditioned the K-S and they are very different.
The Stealth Dream is clean, fast, and tonally balanced. When used in the intended STAR grounding system it becomes "Greater than the sum of its parts" in terms of performance.
The KS Elation gives a very, very black background and remarkable midrange (but not quite the stunning, magical midrange of the Emotion). The Elation is much better in reaching the frequency extremes than the Emotion, though. I suspect that there's a scientific limitation that prevents a cable that can present the midrange the way the Emotion does from performing at the wider audible frequencies. Otherwise I think Joe Kubala and his boys would have found a way to keep that amazing midrange and reach a broader range of frequencies.
Generally speaking, I'd say the Stealth will give you more detail, while the KS will be more "musical". |
