Speaking of fleece here's yet another lost sheep following the wrong sheep. He could not hear high end fuses? That's a shame. Baaaa!
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PADIS vs Furutech fuses
I now have about 260 hours on my PADIS fuse and ready to some listening. The PADIS fuse appears to look exactly like the Furutech fuse. It has the same blue casing with the PF logo on one side. Actually, the only visible difference between the PADIS and Furutech is that the Furutech has “FURUTECH” printed on the opposite side. However, there are actually differences:
My very initial thoughts on the PADIS fuse (in the first few hours) was that the PADIS seemed somewhat dryer sounding than the Furutech. The PADIS did not have the typical “cold / wet /chimey” tones that fresh rhodium plated Furutech components generally have (I’ve tested Furutech rhodium fuses, power cord connectors, interconnect – they all initially contribute this cold/chime character).
I have often stated that Furutech rhodium is painful to burn in. I have burned in many Furutech fuses and it goes through several painful areas. There are days in Furutech rhodium burn-in where I would sit down to listen and the sound would just be so bright / harsh / hard-edged that I said “I can’t listen to this”. At that point, I would just walk away and let it continue to burn in. With the PADIS fuses, it never got that painful. I could hear the burn-in process changes, but it was always listenable. At the 180-200 hour mark, the PADIS did get very bright/hard-edged, but it was still somewhat listenable (I did not have to walk away). At 220 hours it was fully resolved.
Now, for the comparison. I will say that the PADIS is an excellent fuse. For the money, you really cannot beat it, unless you need a warm signature (in which case you need an Isoclean fuse). Both the PADIS and Furutech share the same essential sonic signature. However, there is definitely a difference. The PADIS sounds very good – do not get me wrong, it is an excellent fuse. However, the Furutech really did have an improvement. The tones on the Furutech were just a bit more pure and true sounding. The Furutech had a more “solid” sound to the audio. The Furutech had a bit more punch and meatiness to the bass / midbass. The PADIS, on the other hand, was a bit more loose in the highs, causing the high frequencies to be a bit more messy and rattling. This does cause the PADIS to sound a bit more dry. The PADIS also did not have quite the depth of soundstage when compared to the Furutech.
Now some people might sit down with me and say “I can’t hear a difference” or “your just splitting hairs”. I might be. The difference in sound is VERY subtle, but to me it makes a significant improvement. The differences could also be revealed when listening over a longer period (like 20-30 minutes). The music with the Furutech is just more engaging.
If you have very low resolution or warm equipment, it is possible that you would not hear the difference at all. However, on high resolution stuff, the Furutech could make that equipment “shine” just a little bit better. The PADIS is an excellent buy. For half the cost, you get a whole heck of a lot of performance (almost a no-brainer if you’re still running a stock fuse!). For those who want to bleed out the most amount of performance and resolution – the Furutech is worth the cost.
There are a few possible reasons I can think of that would cause the PADIS/Furutech difference:
- Furutech fuse state a special damping filler inside to reduce electrical resonance. I cannot find an reference to a damping filler for the PADIS fuses. This could be why the PADIS sounds a bit more loose/dry/harsh in the highs
- Furutech does a Cryogenic treatment process. I cannot find any reference that the PADIS fuses get the same treatement.
- Rhodium plating. It is possible that the Furutech fuses are manufactured with a much thicker rhodium plating. I know Furutech likes a thick rhodium plating on their A/C connectors. The PADIS could have put a thin plating on their generic “PADIS” fuses. This could help explain why my burn-in process was not as painful.
Anyways, those are my findings. Maybe next year I’ll do a BLUE vs. Furutech analysis.
113 responses Add your response
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Isn't it strange that those who hear a difference accept it and those who don't or won't even try a different fuse go the Chicken Little route with the sky if falling, it'll blow, you're delusional, how dare you, you can't trust your own ears routine? It's like religious extremists trying to save others souls. One side is acting perfectly natural and the other is incredibly emotional, driving them to ridicule, insult, and look down their collective noses at others. As I've said before, there is some latent issues here that have manifested in this fuse argument. The fuse is not the issue. Right now, you can go to a power cable thread and find those who've never tried one other than stock and similar arguments are being put forth as for fuses: stock is good enough, no, I've never tried it and never will, you're all fools for believing it, expectation bias, etc. Check the archives and you'll find the same declaimers for all manner of audio gear. Thou shalt not dwell on the aftermarket: it's the devil's work! All the best, Nonoise |
Kosst has made one of the few sensible contributions to this thread, I don't want him to leave it. Goofykate makes his living fleecing people so it's obvious he's going to be a believer. I have tried both Furutech and hi-fi tuning and they don't make any difference. FOr anyone impressionable that may be reading this thread, save your money! Fuses are snake oil. You cannot hear any difference between fuses! |
kosst_amojan Look. I just want somebody to explain what is happening. Nothing more, nothing less. I can't even get somebody here to say it sounds like something. It's funny because folks use terms here that have definite measured signatures, but then claim there's no measurable difference when I damn well know there is if that's what they're hearing.This is a hobbyist group, not a scientific forum. This is the wrong place to visit if what you seek is scientific documentation. No one here owes you the explanation that you're demanding. If this hobby is as "full of it" as you state, maybe you're in the wrong hobby. Or the wrong group. Or both. |
For those complaining that the difference measured for fuses was much too small to be significant, and that most volt ohm meters would be unable to actually measure the very small difference, you might consider measuring resistance of 100 feet of fuse wire. Then the difference in resistance would be what, a thousand times larger? Would it not be more obvious then that there’s something to this whole wire directionality thing? Anyone could measure that. |
kosst_amojan "I have drawn the connection to what we know and what we hear many times. You have failed to read it or have dismissed it or whatever." @geoffkait You’re a liar and you have done no such thing. Uh, calm down, Costco. Try to keep up with the discussion. This is like your ridiculous whining that no one had any measurements that you bellowed over and over again, even though the measurements were posted a great many times. I have described in detail the correlation of high end fuses to sound many times. You, know, like why there is a better signal because of better materials for the fuse wire, less vibration, resistance to RFI, etc. and there are a great many testimonies on these threads by customers describing the sonic changes due to aftermarket fuses, including the changes due to direction only. You have two ears and one mouth for a reason. |
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No... Because there wasn’t a widely accepted unit of resistance, people DIED because they didn’t know what they were working on. The only things people listened to were other parts exploding. Really? What on god’s green earth does that have to do with fuses? But I’ll bite. In order to develop a meter to measure, there had to be some kind of consensus on what worked and what didn’t. They had to have some inkling of what was going on. They weren’t completely in the dark. How else would they know how to calibrate the meter until they were satisfied that they had the correct values? How many people do you think DIED making that meter? History, prior to the multimeter, is chock full of stable designs that didn’t KILL everyone. Hair on fire arguments are meant to distract. It won’t work here. How about this? I’ll take my F5 and put one bad resistor in it. I’ll cover up all the markings on the others and give you an ohm meter without a dial or marked range selector on it. That and your ears are all you’re allowed to diagnose the problem with. Keep in mind the power supply is bipolar at 32.5V and pushing about 10 amp on each side with an additional 120,000uF of capacitance. You think that’s a good way to work? Go short out a charged 15,000uF cap and you’ll realize how horribly wrong that can go. Kosst, if you’ve been seriously following my posts, you’d know better than to throw out figures like that as I’ve stated I’m the one who has problems putting batteries in a remote. Again, missing my point, and most deliberately with your red herring argument. All the best, Nonoise |
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@nonoiseAnd yet they used their ears when it came to making music. Not everything blew up or went awry. Standardizing the process with a meter certainly helped to further things but that entirely misses my point. Or side steps it. All the best, Nonoise |
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I shall not allow some charlatans and scoundrels to take advantage of young naive and gullible audiophiles. I shall not allow these pseudo scientists and tweakaphiles to besmirch and sully the good names of Ohm, Watt, Faraday, and the other Icons of Science and Electricity. Finally, I shall not allow any of the Laws of Science to be broken or otherwise injured. - The Naysayer creed |
But what did everyone do before measurements?https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d2/38/ca/d238ca3df765fd751a8d79bd4454f3de--vintage-medical-hearing-aids.jpg Cheers George |
Koost, Not that I give a darn what your thought process is, you are annoying to this forum. Anyone who makes statements without trying the product has no business addressing the subject. In the 40+ years of being an audiophile, I've tried different tweaks that either worked for the better or not. It's what being an audiophile is all about: producing the best sound from your system. I remember reading Stereo Review magazine during the 1970s which published measurements for all their equipment reviews. The measurements did not always correlate with their actual sound. Back then there were an abundance of stores with multiple components so one could judge for themselves whether those reviews/ measurements were sound. BTW- I have tried various fuses that I did not like so your comment, " if people want to buy fuses because they manipulate your brain into liking what you are hearing", has no merit. |
If all one does is follow measurements, then why double check and do the final tuning by ear? Every piece of equipment you have is designed with "measurements" and the laws of electronics, if it's not it's JUNK!!! Final testing by ear is to see which of the above "measured" designs sounds better, or you do it for room acoustics adjustments. Cheers George |
How in the hell did mankind ever progress before the advent of the multimeter? Absolute chaos must have reigned supreme in the 1920s until Zavier came to the rescue with his invention. Before that, all it took was for someone to demonstrate that it works. All anyone had to do was look at it, or listen to it, or taste or feel it to make sure. Once that was established, rule of thumb came into play along with posits, conventional wisdom, more and folkway, until it could be quantified by math, science, theory, or that damn multimeter. There's a whole cottage industry of trained and trusted ears in Japan where all they do is build by ears. Everything from choice of wire and down to it's direction is tried until it sounds right. But they must be wrong, right? Their systems are the envy of anyone who's heard them. It's just another canard to insist that everything can and must be measured or it simply can't be. I'm not talking about accepting things on blind faith, but by my own ears, and thousands of other ears which were and still are, the foundation of measurement and still the final arbiter. If all one does is follow measurements, then why double check and do the final tuning by ear? The naysayers should be perfectly content with their color by numbers build techniques. Stay within the lines and all will be fine. No need to venture out and try something new lest what you try violates your written in stone bible of electrical standards because, blind faith. I prefer to question authority and conventional wisdom because it's been proven to be so wrong in so many instances. Not having UL or Guiness around, I trust my own ears and soldier on. For the life of me, I can't fathom why anyone refuses to simply try it for themselves and insists that they hold all the knowledge and answers because it's written down somewhere by someone who, themselves, haven't tried it. Baffling, to say the least. All the best, Nonoise |
Costco wrote, @geoffkait And what you fail to do is draw any plausible connection between what we know and the observed phenomenon. >>>>I have drawn rain the connection to what we know and what we hear many times. You have failed to read it or have dismissed it or whatever. People claim they hear things. Fine. WHY??? The attributes people describe are roughly in par with the characteristics of distortion. Cool. We can measure that. Why hasn’t anybody measured that? >>>>>>How owe should I know? Can it be measured? I suspect not. >>>>>>Why assume anything? You’re just be argumentative. Now if people want to buy fuses because they manipulate your brain into liking what you’re hearing, that’s kinda crazy to me, but I otherwise don’t care. >>>>>Uh, I’m pretty sure it’s because The aftermarket fuses improve the sound. Id say you’ve managed to psych yourself out. Otherwise you don't care? Is that why you've wound yourself up into a froth? . I’ve got a bunch of lights and lasers I use while listening because being visually distracted from the space enhances the listening experience. I guess you could say shining lights and lasers on my gear makes it sound better. The truth is that it’s all in my head though. That seems the most rational explanation for this question about fuses. >>>>>As I said, it appears you’ve psyched yourself out. Good luck with all that. |
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I never said that the differences in resistance account for the differences in sound. What we have here, folks, is an excellent example of a Strawman argument. Even HiFI Tuning states that the small differences in resistance don’t account for the sonic differences, as I just quoted from their data sheets. The measured differences are, however, indicative of the directionality of fuses. All fuses. You know, because of the correlation of the differences to direction. Hel-loo! |
With all due respect, I reread the article and could not find any reference to correlating listener preferences and fuse resistance or direction. There are several mentions of "the sonic differences between fuses" but the paper doesn't discuss who is making the distinction, what these sonic differences are, and how "better sound" is judged. There are correlations with the HFT fuses related to lower resistance and higher conductivity but not "better sounding." In their concluding "Tips for optimizing High End Audio gear" there is no discussion of orienting the fuse direction for either optimal sound or lower resistance. Please let me know if I am missing part of the article or study. I simply do not believe that the minute differences in resistance between one-inch pieces of wire (i.e., different fuses), much less the differences in resistance between the orientation directions of the same one-inch piece of wire (i.e., the same fuse turned-around), could be audible in even upper-end home stereo systems, given all the many other factors that influence how the system will sound. My skepticism is further fueled when I read about how the SR20 fuse "totally changed" somebody's system but then how the SR Red further improved it with results that "are not subtle" but later that the SR Black "blows the doors off" anything that has come before...then along comes the SR Blue, etc., etc., etc. An amplifier designer once told me, "if I was starting over I would go into cables." Lots of money has been made on what amounts to wire, geometry, and connectors. |
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As the poster of the measurement (which has been posted many times before), I did say that the "measurements could explain why", but I also said that the measurements was not the entire story. Counter-argument. So, the fuse non-believers, can you provide me measurements as proof as to why the Vishay Naked Foil resistors sound so good? I mean, it's just a resistor that measures resistance, right? We all know that it is well made, just like our upgraded fuses are well made. But upgrading a tiny resistor doesn't make any difference to the sound quality. Give me absolute measurable proof that it makes a difference. Not sure why so many disbelievers are so hung up on fighting this fuse argument. :) |
Costco, If the measured differences were arbitrary and subject to a number of variables, as you say, the results would be random. But as I got through explaining, the results are not (rpt not) random. They’re consistent with fuse non symmetry, I.e., directionality. Ditto fuse body material, Cryo, etc. Follow? Your theory is as silly as the fuse holder explanation. |
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Reply to Mitch’s question, something to the effect, "where can I find the correlation of measurements to listening test?" From the conclusions portion of the HiFi Tuning data sheets, "The measurements done so far showed some measurable differences between fuse, but didn ́t explain completely the sonic differences between fuses. One way to look at these phenomenon’s is, that music, containing many pulses can be limited by the electronics being in the reproduction chain. Fuses with better contact material (e.g. no corrosion) and overall better make will limit these pulses less." If I may be so bold, what that first sentence intends to mean is measured results DO - at least partially - explain the listening results. In terms of not only directionality but fuse body material and fuse conductor material, including differences produced by Cryo treatment. In other words, the directionality of the fuses that was measured agrees with the listening tests. I suggest that the correct way to view the measurements is that they are indicative that the fuses are *non symmetrical*. No one is saying that the differences in resistance are the complete answer. But they are *evidence* that something is going on. Obviously if fuses were completely *symmetrical* the resistance would measure exactly the same both ways, no? 😳 |
Geoffkait 10-17-2017In some past fuse-related threads I provided the following summary of the direction-related resistance measurements reported in the HiFi-Tuning paper: The differences in resistance for the HFT fuses in the two directions ranged from 0.000002 ohms to 0.000120 ohms. The differences in resistance for the competitive fuses were a bit greater in some cases, with the worst cases generally being the standard fuses, for which there was one isolated case having a measured difference of 0.005200 ohms.I would feel safe in assuming that there are not many audiophiles who possess equipment capable of measuring such miniscule differences in resistance. For example, my $375 Fluke multimeter cannot come remotely close to doing so, even in the one isolated case where the difference was much larger than for all of the other measurements. Regards, -- Al |
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While it’s true the measured differences are small, the differences are consistent. The resistance is consistently lower for audiophile fuses than for stock fuses; the resistance is consistently lower according to which end of the wire came out of the die first; cryo’d fuses have less resisitance than their non cryo’d counterparts. What the naysayers oft overlook is this: the measured results are consistent with listening results - the best sounding direction is the one with the lower resistance. |
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That's fine and I respect your belief that fuses do not make a difference. However, we have nothing to prove to anyone because we know for a fact that fuses do make a difference. If you do not want to expend the money to test fuses on your own, that's fine, but describing this subject as "silliness" is just unethical and scientifically incorrect. As I have said before, none of us are interested in making any measurements and I'm sure none of us are interested in investing in the thousands of dollars in lab equipment required to measure the tiny difference in fuses in effort to prove to you that this makes a difference. (such as DC resistance, capacitance, electrical resonance, slew rate, etc.). It's just much easier to test the fuses directly in equipment and make our own decisions based on sound, metallurgy, etc. I have seen others post this exact sheet for you, but I will post it again to show some actual measurements on fuses: http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/hft_facts.pdf This shows that Isoclean has a higher DC resistance than the Hi-Fi Tuning fuses. This specific measurement could help explain why the Isoclean sounds warmer and the Hi-Fi Tuning sounds fast/detailed and at times lean. However, that's not the entire story as there are other factors to consider, such as Isoclean is gold-plated versus Hi-Fi Tuning which is silver/gold. There are many other attributes to fuses that apply such as metallurgy, plating material, fuse filler, graphene application, cryogenic treatment, etc. If you were a true scientist, the correct response would be "I haven't proved that this makes a difference". The response that "this is silly because it doesn't make a difference" is more of a belief based on blind faith. If you haven't tested and listened to different fuses, then you really don't have any stance to argue against fuses. One more thing. Trying to compare fuses such as Little Fuse vs Buss Fuse versus some other $5 fuse is not a good example of testing here because all of these fuses will perform very similar and will have substantially lower results than something like an Isoclean or Futurech.. ---- As an addendum, there are many items that I suspect are "snake oil". These are things like speaker cable risers, Synergistic sound dots, Bybee elements, etc. However, I cannot say for sure that they are snake oil or not because I have never heard these elements myself. So, I will not make any brash statements against these items because of my "impossible time believing that they actually do make a difference". |
Haven't audiophile fuses been around since the early 2000s? That's almost two decades worth of thousands of listeners who've heard a difference and you need a measurement that hasn't been invented yet? This isn't new territory. There's something else going on here of a latent nature that's manifesting itself with this fuse argument. All the best, Nonoise |
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so, kosst_amojan, have you actually tried out a Furutech or BLACK fuse in your F5 amp? Question - if a fuse has no impact on a piece of equipment that should be designed well, how come I can hear significant differences between fuses in my $12,000 retail Krell home theater processor, fully linear power supplies, all discrete Class A circuits, etc. etc.? Are you saying that this Krell processor is so badly designed that a fuse makes a big difference? I have no doubt that bias adjustments and distortion balance definitely has a big impact on amplifier results. However, every piece in the chain has an impact on the end result sound. Everything in the signal chain matters. |
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