Ownership and Review of a pair of Ohm Super Sound Cylinder
Greetings all - I recently ordered a pair of Ohm Super Sound Cylinder speakers, or SSC-4900's. They are in the middle of the Ohm Walsh lineup, and are about 38 inches tall and the cylinder cabinets about 12.5 inches in diameter.
Specs are listed at 88 dB for a 2.8 V input, and a response curve of +/- 3 dB from 25 to 20,000 Hz.
This whole process is part of a "high end, high value, USA made two channel system" thread I started a couple of months ago on another forum. The electronics are the PS Audio Stellar Gain Pre-amp/DAC and a pair of PS Audio M700 mono amps.
The PS Audio equipment has already elevated the Axiom M100's and Martin Logan Electro Motion ESL speakers in terms of performance. The Axioms have a "twin" available in Brick and Mortar outlets from Bryston called the A1's.
For reference, other speakers which we have or still have in house include: Klipsch LaScala II's, Legacy Signature SE's, Infinity IRS Sigmas, Ascend Sierras, PSB Strata Goldi, VMPS Super Towers and a host of other speakers.
The Ohm Walsh speakers have been something about which I have read since 1977 (the year I got the audio bug), but have never had the chance to experience. The SSC-4900's sell for $4900 per pair, though the name and pricing are coincidental. The "4900" is due to the idea that the speakers are "almost a 5000", but with less controls - one switch vs. 4 for the 5000, but also a lower price.
John Strohbeen, who is he president at Ohm and who has been with them for almost 40 years, was gracious enough to spend an hour talking on the phone about our room, the associated gear, and also that there would be a review thread. It was after this discussion that we decided on the SSC-4900's.
I am purchasing the speakers, not getting a review pair. They are under the 120 day return policy. John is well aware that my daughter sings opera, my son is adept at classical guitar, and that live music is the reference. He was actually quite pleased about this.
This will be fun (at least for me), and hopefully informative. Comments are welcome.
I honestly have no idea what to expect from the Walsh sound. They are so different from other speaker designs that the only thing to do is set them up properly and hear what happens!
dep14 - I have a 1976 vintage Marantz 250M amp that will get a tryout with the Ohms this fall when it's indoor season.
I would love to hear some Pass Labs amps with the Ohms, too.
If your speakers didn't ship before the break, I think you will be happy once you finally get them. The frustration is tough while waiting, but I have no regrets.
I am pretty sure you will find it was worth the wait. What is your electronics make up? We have an Oppo 105, PS Audio Stellar Gain Pre-amp/DAC and matching 700 mono amps from PS Audio. It's sonic bliss for under $10,000 delivered.
@craigsub - I don't do dope, or drop anything when listening. Doing, perhaps? Checking email, usually. But I try to set aside a few hours here and there for listening as a destination activity.
Don't get me started! Listening to a good female vocal + acoustic instrument recording on my 2000s can be an almost religious experience. Suzanne Vega, Ani Difranco, Neko Case, Norah Jones, et. al., just make you stop whatever you're doping and focus on the music.
Tonight’s disc of choice was "Unplugged" by Eric Clapton. The Ohms are so musical that I find I never want to skip a song - you know how it goes - there are always a couple of songs that you just don’t like, so you hit "next". I am not doing that with these speakers.
Bondmanp - The subwoofer will be fun to add. With the PS Audio Stellar pre-amp, a cool feature is the combo of XLR Balanced out plus RCA out. We will be able to run the Ohm’s full range, and will be switching to XLR out into the M700 MonoBlocs from PS Audio.
Then a full range RCA output will go to the Axiom EP800, which handles all filtering through its DSP. We can set the lowpass to as low as 30 Hz, which should allow for a seamless transition from mains to sub. The plan is to make this a project this fall when we get the first crappy weather weekend. Summer is too short, and my weekends are on the golf course now - but I still sneak away for one disc daily.
@craigsub - Thanks for the update. To us Ohm owners, your experience is not at all surprising.
I also run my Ohms with powered subwoofers, and I am thrilled with this combo. Obviously, care should be taken to position and blend the sub(s) optimally with your mains.
This is a quick summer night update - I listening to Steely Dan's 2 against nature last night, and it NEVER sounded this crystal clear across all frequencies along with that huge soundstage. This disc does have bass notes that go deeper than the Ohm's can hit, and I am looking forward to adding the Axiom EP800 to the system - it's flat to 13 Hz in an anechoic setting, and the most musical subwoofer I have auditioned.
I've had my 1000's for about 9 years. I love the way immerse me in sound. The sound stage gives space and depth with proper weight and bass. I feel no need to add a sub, the Ohms do just fine. They're the best chance I ever took.
@jstrohbeen I read your post with great interest. I too believe in the law of diminishing returns in just about everything, including audio. That said, always interested in those that push the envelope. If you were to do (and maybe you have) a "cost no object" design. What would the increased cost look like to get a significant performance upgrade? There are only so many parts in a speaker and it sounds like a capacitor is a capacitor for the most part... so would it be the driver or tweeter? Or some super high-tech cylinder as a cabinet?
@ craigsub You are in a unique position given that you have the Cylinders and many other respected speakers.
I think that any comparisons you make to other loudspeakers will be helpful to most readers. I'd like to suggest one tweak for your consideration. Knowing that this is a gross oversimplification, most loudspeakers often get classified as either analytical (highly detailed) in nature (think quad electrostatic) or musical (dynamic, punch, scale) (think Zu or Devore or Tekton)...and obviously many are in between...trying to do both. And usually to do both well, the price reaches the level of "unobtanium" for most of us. Obviously, there are a lot of people that want a system that is highly resolving...and there are a lot of people that want a system that approximates live music. In the months to come as you continue to post your thoughts about the Ohm Sound Cylinders and how they compare...please consider trying to include some comments about how you assess their position....analytical tools or live musical presentation or both...and how that stacks up to the other speaker you are comparing them to. Thanks
+1 craigsub! My vintage Ohm Sound Cylinders certainly do the 3-D "performers in the room" better than any of my other speakers - even the Quads and KLH Nines!
It's a tough job, writing up a comparison of speakers going back 40 years, and I do plan on an extensive write up this fall - after 6 months of ownership.
Here are some broad thoughts:
1. No speaker we have had here sets a soundstage as do the Ohm's. For example, on Roger Water's "In The Flesh", during "Another Brick", one can clearly hear the audience clapping in sequence to the beat of the kick drum. This clapping takes place to either side of the listener, placing one in the audience. The singers and their instruments are clearly presented across the stage. It's a remarkable experience, and no speaker has come close to this level of immersion, with the exception of the DSP controlled Axiom LFR-1100's.
2. Vocals sound more "live" than with the Ohms than even with the Legacy Signature SE's. My daughter loves to listen to opera on these speakers. The clarity of these speakers continues to amaze. Acoustic Guitar (my son is a terrific guitarist) has that weight that a real guitar has without a hint of bloom.
3. They need power - I recommend a good 200 WPC amp, primarily to avoid any clipping.
The best par of the Ohm's is they make me want to listen to more music. I look for excuses to hide out in the basement high end room so I can listen.
I'm enjoying this thread. Thanks. @craigsub, it would be tremendous to get some thoughts vs your many other speakers, you have many and many that folks have heard. Would love strengths vs weaknesses etc.
dep - it is still on the middle setting. The owner's manual does not tell what the settings do, so I will try different settings and "see" if I can hear a difference on some challenging material. It's probably better to do it this way, as "knowing" what to expect adds bias.
Roysq - It is passed time for an update. We have listened to a lot of discs, and also have played with the placement. Right now, I am listening to the Grateful Dead's "Fillmore West" CD. As with every other disc, the Ohm's are impressing with stellar detail and depth of soundstage.
On Fillmore West, the guitars are purposefully played with the tube distortion of the era, and this comes through with exceptional clarity. The Soundstage is outstanding, with instruments often times being heard well outside the speakers.
Bass is deep and tight, but won't overwhelm one like a subwoofer can. These speakers are wonderful with drums, from snare to bass.
Then there is the occasional surprise - yesterday, while relaxing and watching golf, I heard members of the gallery talking behind me. It was a cool effect, and also very easy to pick out the words - 2 guys were betting $5 on whether Justin Rose would make a 14 foot putt for a birdie.
They also play with such low distortion that one can be listening quite loudly and not realize it until someone tries to talk, and you realize you can't hear him/her.
I would love to put the SSC-4900's into a blind test with some very expensive speakers like the Magico S5 series. They both have a way of delivering sound from a "very black" background.
@craigsub - any new updates or thoughts? Would love a reference on the picture as to size vs other speakers.
Are they neutral, bright, laid back? How is the bass? Super tight, or a nice neutral amount. Seems as though they should kick it out bass wise. Looks like a 10 or even 12 inch driver?
dep14 - I will get some more closeups done. If you click on the actual picture, it will fill the entire screen. I loaded it at full resolution, which the site shrinks to a thumbnail. You probably have to get an account there if you don't already have one. The pic, when seen on the full screen, really shows the quality of the veneer. It is "quite good" - not spectacular, but they look really good.
Surprisingly, my wife, who does NOT like most speakers, loves the cylinder shape and the Rosewood finish.
Thanks for that picture, would love close ups of the seams on the veneer etc.
It's tough to gauge the size. In the first picture, it looks pretty substantial, the second looks a bit smaller. Not a huge deal... but if you are bored or want to show them off.
Here is a question - how much of a change do you feel the room size adjustment has? Does it just reduce bass output? Tighten things up? I assume it's a resistor in the circuit. But, with that woofer running almost full range... would be interested if you feel it also accenuates the treble simply by reducing everything below the crossover?
Guys - I loaded another pic of the SSC-4900 that shows its finish. They are not "glossy", but the finish looks good enough that my wife wants to put them upstairs in the family room. She loves the look, even without the grills.
Hey guys, thanks for the comments and offers. In retrospect, I screwed up... I was in Allentown a couple weeks ago for a few days and could have easily dropped by the ohm factory.
snap - Understood. You say you haven’t heard Ohms in 35 years. I would be happy to invite you in for a demonstration if you’re ever in northern/central New Jersey. I am confident that my current setup shows my 2000s to their full advantage. Although the sound in the Ohm room at the Chester Group show in NYC last November was really good, in many ways, I still prefer my own. And the sound with the 1000s at the same show the year before was not as good as in 2017, IMHO.
But I think you’re asking John to be more of salesman than he really is. IMHO, John lets his designs do the talking, which is why you don’t see too many adverts or professional reviews of Ohm out there. I think most of the pro reviews are from reviewers who opted to publish a review of Ohm speakers, rather than the result of intensive lobbying and ad placement by Ohm. You know, the very first time I heard Ohms, it was at a campus party nearly 40 years ago. A pair of John's dynamic speakers were filling the party with great sound, even though they were just plunked on matress in no particular arrangement. I remember asking about them and being told they were Ohms. That’s how the word gets around for speakers like these, that sort of fly beneath the radar. I am sure this also helps keep prices down, too.
snap maybe he will answer but if not there is certainly plenty of information out there both on the OHM site and other independent sources including various pro reviews over the years. I suspect Audiogon regulars represent a very small % of all OHM users. OHM has been in business since 1971 I believe and been selling essentially the same Walsh series design since 1981 or so with various refinements since.
My personal opinion is they are unique and different from any others in the ways described and you have to hear them yourself to determine if for you or not. If you do not need the high quality coherent sound and large sweet spot for a relatively affordable price, there are many other good options. Where do you live? I’d be happy to offer an audition if possible.
@bondmanp Thanks for your comments. Here is the reason I think it would be interesting to hear more directly from John...Most of us can probably say that we know people that own modestly priced Tektons, Zu, Spatials, Kefs, Maggies, Logans, etc. that are very happy with them and recount a similar experience to yours last night.
And, all of these and many other loudspeakers are well covered by many reviews, lots of discussion of their components and technology and lots of posts by owners.
By comparison, Ohms are "relatively" unknown, not many professional reviews, not many forum reviews (here on Audiogon, only a few of you regularly talk about them), not much understanding of the current state of their technology, and rarely if ever do they end up on someone's top 10 recommended list.
The professional reviews and the Ohm literature seem to go in the direction of "sounds good everywhere in the room" vs "sounds amazingly like real music at the listening position".
The last time I actually heard the Ohms were the Fs 35+ years ago...they sounded fantastic driven by a Crown amplifier. I'm guessing the latest versions sound a lot better.
Many/most audio enthusiasts are always looking for the next "change" to their systems hoping to improve musical realism. Based on all the shows and reviews, they are constantly being urged/pulled/pushed (most recently) in the direction of Tekton or Elac or ??????...and at some point, they are going to pull the trigger and buy their NEXT loudspeaker.
I'd like to hear John talk about why not Ohm.
Often times, the final statement is just ...buy a pair of XXX, try them and if they don't wow you, send them back....and I agree that a home demo is the only way to know for sure. Realistically, though, many people balk at the idea of a $250 and up return shipping unless they are pretty sure up front that they probably won't be making a return.
@jstrohbeen - Ah! I figured there had to be a reason. Of course, a $700 pair of tweeters, even if they did work well, would skew the price points of the Ohm Walsh line much higher, so, for po’ folks like me, it’s a moot point. I was thinking more along the lines of the cheaper folded ribbons in speakers made by Golden Ear, Martin Logan and even Dayton (Parts Express). But your explanation of why such tweeters failed with the Ohm Walsh design puts the last nail in that coffin, as far as I am concerned.
@snapsc - Dude, even I can tell you the answer to your question! As I often post, I have been happily enjoying my 2000s since late 2009. As I have upgraded my electronics, tweaks and cabling, the 2000s have responded really well, getting better and better. The kicker is that, as a member of my local audio club, I get to hear lots of speakers in a variety of settings, and in a variety of price ranges. So far, without spending at least $12K, there is nothing that I have heard that equals or beats my affordable 2000s. Sure, I can listen to Vandy 7s or Magicos and be very impressed. But then I go home, fire up my own modest rig, and I do not feel like I am missing anything worth mortgaging my house for. Take last night. I was letting my Squeezebox Touch and server pick the tunes on random mode. On came the odd track "Atmospheres" (?) by Ligeti, an atonal mix of vocal sounds, percusive strikes and other sounds. It is an acquired taste, but, oh my, the dynamics!!! Even though this file was from an early 2001: A Space Odyssey CD full of hiss, I was repeatedly startled by the realism of the voices, the attack of the transients (which were never harsh), and the reverb trails of the voices and bells. If your system doesn’t make you jump a few times when you listen to this track, it’s doing it wrong. And all this is through the temporary X-2 crossover unit from Vandersteen for my 2Wq subs, which is not intended to be very transparent, and isn’t. Yes, some of this might be due to my recently upgraded amplifier, but the amp would not have been able to overcome dynamic limitations of the speaker. Listening last night I felt like there were no limitations on the dynamic range of my 2000s whatsoever. Goose-bumps, chills up my spine and a s--- eating grin on my face. What more could I want?
One of the points that ohm emphasizes is good sound throughout the room. For many of us with a prime listening position, a widely dispersed sound is less important than live, realistic, dynamic, music with great pitch and tone with scale and image at the prime listening position.
Many companies refer to their unique speaker design (concentric tweeter, open baffle, high efficiency, ribbon tweeter, etc.) as the solution to realistic sound. And frankly all the marketing hyperbole is confusing.
Can you talk talk a little more as to why the Walsh 2000 or 3000 is an ideal affordable loudspeaker for people looking for a musical and emotional presentation... at their prime listening positions for a wide variety of music at reasonable (under 90 dB) listening levels.
@bondmanp Yes, our Japanese distributor had us use the ESS Heil Air Motion Transformer ($700/pr). We found turning it into a monopole by putting a good size cavity on the back made it possible to cross over to a Walsh 4000 driver; the problem that we never overcame was the frequency response at different distances from the tweeter. Since in the highs it was rolling off linearly with the distance as a line source many wavelengths long, and the Walsh driver was dropping off at the square of the distance. At one spot, it could sound superb; farther back it was harsh and closer up, it was dull! When we attenuated the front to make it shorter, it didn't have enough highs. All designs are tradeoffs. Our current supertweeter goes beyond 24 kHz on axis, and beyond 20kHz in most listening positions. I think that's high enough - especially for old folks like me. And all CD users.
Also, @jstrohbeen - Since we have your attention, have you ever played around with folded ribbon tweeters in combination with your Walsh line of speakers? I have been wondering what such a combo might sound like.
Hi John! Thanks for sharing these thoughts with us. Neat little story: Last night, I had a friend over who owns a B&M audio dealer near me. I thought he would find all sorts of reasons why I should not have bouoght my Ohm 2000s. I could not have been more wrong! I know this guy has access to some incredible (and incredibly expensive) gear and speakers, but he was very kind and complimented me on the sound of modest rig. He stopped by to help resolve some subwoofer issues I was having, and we made a lot of progress. After a 6 month hiatus caused by an amplifier failure, I can really enjoy my system again.
I just caught up on this thread. Thanks for all the comments.
Cone material: I don't care what the material is -- just how it works for our requirement. Yes, we have used and still use a variety of materials from paper to polypropylene to metals. Each has to be used differently.
Capacitors: I hope that people spending many dollars and many months choosing the best component enjoy themselves. The changes made in developing speakers are quite audible. How big a change is critical? At Ohm, we invest our time and money researching changes that are bigger than just moving the speakers a foot. Changing the value of a component can often make that big a change, but changing brand with matching specifications has not. -- unless the judge knows which is which while comparing. Then, the placebo effect of expensive parts is very powerful.
Paper tubes vs. Birch plywood: Tubes are stronger, lighter and generally better than flat birch plywood cabinets. We offer both. We sell the Walsh 4000 using birch plywood for $5600/pair and iy has no controls. This is $700 more than the SSC4900 which has a room size control. The big difference is looks -- not sound. Listeners should enjoy the looks of their speakers as they will be living with them for some time.
With Ohm Walshs, you do hear the music -- not the speakers.
Good Listening! John Strohbeen President/Owner Ohm Acoustics Corp.
@craigsub - it's funny you mentioned that moving the subwoofers helped. I did the same in my room recently and moved my sub from next to my left speaker to the rear of the room. I noticed a clear different in my speakers response (for the better). I don't use a subwoofer with 2 channel with my current speakers, and really was amazed at the difference of getting the subwoofer away from them when it wasn't running. (side benefit, it helped my theater also, rear seems to be a better location in my room).
dep14 - over the weekend, I cleaned out the area behind the speakers, so they now have a "clean" live end. Bass is now extending deeper without the "bass dampener" effect of the idle subwoofers.
We will get some good pics posted this week - my wife is a very good amateur photographer with a proper Canon something camera that cost me about $4000.
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