Older vs. newer REL subs

@crustycoot  I don't think you mean to say "propaganda". That would imply the literature from REL is false and intentionally misleading. It's information about the products, perhaps with marketing-speak, but not propaganda. Does that make sense?

@ghdprentice  My goal is to arrive at matched subs. It's a question of getting another (older) REL 328 or selling that and getting two newer REL models.

@noromance Thanks. Faster is better in my low ceilinged space.

@yakbob My purpose is music listening only. That's why I have the REL 328.

I do like the idea of newer subs. A Salk sub would be nice but 75lbs each? Probably harder to resell, no?

@stereoisomer Thanks. I did a lot of homework on the matching sub question and this is why I still have one sub. Because it had to match. Now that I've found a match, it's the right time to ask, "newer or older" matching subs. It would cost money, but now is the time to decide.

@kren0006 I think the R328 was a more expensive model at the time and so it's at the same level, perhaps, as the S5, now? If so, that's at least a rough analogy.

I'm not in the market to buy two $2500 subs to replace a single older $2k sub; I would entertain two newer $1500 subs, however. 

@amg56 I don't see in REL's literature where it says the "T" series are "aimed" for home theater. They say it can do both. Do others with T series subs believe they bought a sub for home theater by mistake?

I know that Rel has an "HT" series. When I use their speaker matching tool, I input that "music" is the purpose and their recommendations come out with T models.

T series: "goals were...to deliver as much as possible of our latest Series S on a budget.
T/9x: "delivers the goods in both music and theatre applications...it opens the pathway for owners of high performance European floor and stand mounted monitors and smaller panel speakers to enjoy truly full range sound."

Would I get a better sub if I spent an additional $1k per sub? Sure. Would it be more "music-focused"? That's what I'm not seeing and, for my budget, it doesn't make sense.

@wolf_garcia   Thanks for your input. I know that eventually subs can shake themselves apart and that difficulty in getting service is a consideration for a used one.

@b_limo Salk. Can't. The wait for the speakers was worth it,  but even before Covid, people wait a long time for his stuff. For me, these are not worth the wait, and a trial period would be out of the question because the shipping is insand. TMR sells RELs and I can drive to go get them, try them out, and return them.  I think of subs as a kind of good utility. I don't need beautiful cabinets on the subs. Plus, they will be harder to match for someone else. I'm just not at the point of adding more eye candy to my room, which is really an audio lab and not a pretty space for guests. So, I think Salks are off the table. Plus, REL's customer service is really a full time part of their operation. This is not to slight Jim, of course, but they're just in the sole business of subs.

Given how often I have moved my subs, 75lbs is a deal breaker. And they're too big. But it was fun to read about them a bit.

@tj-sully It does! Thank you. I would not go for an S-series. More like the T series. 

@wolf_garcia  Thanks. I'll check my springs (and my neck bolt, while I'm at it).

Others here -- same experience? Subs don't have any issues due to vibration over time? Good to confirm, especially if I'm looking at a used sub.

@missioncoonery Where is the S510 available for $2k each?

As I price it out, I paid $1k for my present sub, used. I can probably get $600 or so for trade in with the folks nearby who trade and sell gear; if I get two $1500 T/9 subs with them, it totals $2300 rather than $5k. That saves $2700. Not chump change for people who work. If they’re all good subs and my system is not a $30k+ system, that sounds like a fit. More seems like overkill, though I know that’s the name of the game in this hobby for many.

But let’s take your $2k price as something really available (I assume that you’ve got a link for me on that). Let’s also assume that there is no trade in involved. So, essentially what you’re asserting is that someone who would prefer not to spend $1k or a third more is "stoopid" and that this discussion is "wasting everyone’s time here"?

I laid out my parameters and preferences in the OP and my posts, so I’ll leave it to others to decide if I’m wasting their time. Doesn’t seem like it, based on the helpful posts. Of course if you feel your time is being wasted, you’ve got options.

@arafiq Great questions! Thanks. And I'm glad to know the newer are beating out the older. I'm leaning heavily to the T/9 series. The other tempting thing for me is the value of a Rythmik sub, which people seem to love and it gives more control over integration, which could be important. Just love how those RELs look. Um, um.

Thanks for the recent comments. It's good to know when one is moving towards overkill in their room. So that could be one reason one would not spend an extra $1,000 for the S series. If there was a good reason to do it and I wanted to spend that money then I would do it. (If anyone would like to pay for my dental work I'd be happy to upgrade even further!

 I can see that in this thread there is a difference of opinion as to whether or not the S series really makes enough of a difference in the room that I have.

Some people believe that buying something of even slightly better quality is always the thing to do. But opportunity costs are real and so it's easy to spend someone else's money. That said if I could get the S series for two grand each and I had a very good acoustical reason to do it, I would do it.

Below it was said that the T series from REL was aimed at home theater.

Watch this video on the S 510 and notice how often he mentions "home theater."

https://youtu.be/tN6IraLOjMg

@missioncoonery My mistake! My apologies. It was not you. I will delete my post!

By the way, I'm in discussions about the S series, now. Thanks for your reports about your experience.

Thanks, all. Lots of possibilities. Gonna sleep on it!

@amg -- Thanks for the clarification. I've now heard from two REL dealers that explained why the S series was better but also from another user who's said that a person at REL said that either the 9 or the S would be good.
I think it's typically a no lose situation for a dealer to recommend something higher up the line. They make money and their custoers avoid cognitive dissonance by assuming they're hearing a difference they never really got a chance to test methodically, over time. So, the marketing literature which initially seems like blather can become an important buttress for the customer *after* purchase. 

One thing that keeps me thinking about going somewhere else than REL is the adjustable phase in other subs, such as Rythmik.

Had a nice exchange with my speaker maker, Jim Salk. Salk had not heard the RELs and he has nothing negative to say about them. He commented to me about the differences he saw between REL at the T9x level and the Rythmik 12SE. 

The REL T9 lacks phase control other than 0/180. What he likes about more adjustable phase control is that it helps dial in the phase correctly. As he put it, "If the subwoofer driver is not in the exact same plane as the woofers in the main speakers, you must set the phase such that the two are in phase with one another over the crossover region. If not, you may have nulls in the overall output." I'd only add that give one's rooms nodal regions, one might not *want* to put the woofers on the "exact same plane" as the mains. After all the measuring I did, I'd hate to have to do that with my subs.

He also noted that the REL subs I was looking at (not the more expensive RELS) use A/B amplifiers but better subs are now using digital Class D amplifiers (Hypex's Ncore amps or Purifi, etc.) He likes these amps because they run cooler and have a lot of power for the size while doing a good job of controlling the woofers. Finally, he likes subs with direct servo control. As he explained it, on a sub's two voice coils, one drives the woofer cone while the other is fed back to the plate amp’s servo circuitry. "The servo circuit monitors in the input and calculates exactly where the cone needs to be to produce the signal at the input. Using the second voice coil, it determines exactly where the cone is. If it is not in the position is needs to be in, the gain is automatically increased or decreased as necessary. All of this happens in real time. So you end up with very accurate response that is very musical as well." Finally, he likes that in the direct servo system [for the models I am comparing] the sub plays deeper. You can easily get flat response down to 20Hz with a 12” sub."

People love REL's and whether these technical differences make a difference is up to everyone's ears. But for the same price as the T9/x, it seems the Rythmik is quite amenable to careful adjustments. Until I'm in a room where I can get a swarm, I have the chance to get a sub which is easier to blend with my mains; I have technical know how about use REW along with the added technologies on the Rythmik to dial it in. And a 45 day window for return. It's very tempting.

@b_limo Lol! Well, I'm not sure I need to invest in fancy cabinets for a sub, especially since that will increase the weight -- and the wait! And also, if I re-sell, best not to have chosen wood that's too particular. 

By the way, on the servo issue, here's Mcgowan: https://youtu.be/Vk3ti1nTtZ8?t=171

@missioncoonery  I love my current REL. But I have less experience and knowledge than others and the issue of integrating two subs is not just a "go and listen proposition" for me. There's more to it than that, for me. Still, I'm glad you can wrap up the issue so easily for yourself! Congrats on having such confidence in your subs. I hope to get there, myself.

@jjss49  Absolutely right. There's a tendency in discussions to set up an "either/or" when in fact the better answer is "both/and." 

I may go with REL yet. There’s pretty much a drumbeat for REL and I can understand why. I have a REL and it’s very musical and the company’s been extraordinary to work with, in terms of communication and support.

That said, I’m trying out a couple of Rythmiks. I placed an order yesterday, to be fulfilled (hopefully) in June. I have a trial for those. I have consistently found value in products that are not from very large companies with a lot of marketing, advertising, and dealer overhead. Quicksilver, Fritz, Salk, MHDT have all provided amazing value. That said, REL has the R&D and customer testimony (and economy of scale) to meet a very high quality metric, so I don’t discount their ability to hit the mark, too. Just a different path.

But for now I want to try Rythmik because I have spent a lot of time trying to integrate my REL -- especially dealing with room gain in the 70-80 hz spectrum. The lack of control I have over the REL is making this impossible. I need more control on the unit. But I don't want to spend $5000 a sub. (Or near that.)

Consider what is available in the Reference Rels --

Parametic EQ to (as the REL manual states) "cure certain room acoustics challenges"
The manual continues,

"Application: Most rooms produce room gain--higher output--in the upper bass region, typically in the 70-80Hz region. Generally speaking, most rooms have reduced gain in the low bass regions, somewhere in the mid-20’s to mid-30’s area. For this reason, we provide you the ability to produce noteworthy improvements in both trouble regions by gently cutting the higher bass frequencies and gently boosting the lower region.
To share our own experiences; while developing this filter set in our own studios, we found +2 dB at 25Hz and -2 dB at 43Hz (crossover frequency was set to 34Hz) produced evenness of output and the overall result was found to be much more consistent across the entire bass range. More impressive in long term listening were improvements in clarity extending all the way up into the upper midrange. This is clearly the result of a slight reduction in mid bass overhang that the 43Hz cut function provided."

The ability to deal with room gain at a price point I’m capable of is why I’m trying Rythmik, first, this time around.

@shahram I got two Rythmik subs. In addition to the REL, I was able to position and adjust them to within +/- 4db between 20 and 400 Hz. Sounds excellent. The Rythmiks' adjustable phase was what made it all possible.

I have 3 subs.