casey33, Did that lp happen to be another color than black?
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Update. The latest synthetic inner rings:
I was surprised, being an original registered customer of the VinylFlat , that I wasn't sent an email from them when this new option came out. I justĀ recently received it.
I was having an issue after years of use with the original groovy rings that had become "not Flat" when compressed.
The new synthetic option seemed logical.
I've noticed for quite some time that several vinyl records have pronounced height in the very center portion. So much so, that when using a VPI center weight, it doesn't sit flat on these lps. This logic transfers to the VinylFlat's effectiveness as well.
My solution which is working rather well, was to trim the outer edges of the synthetic material to 11+ 3/4" diameter and using a 1&1/2" hole punch on the very center to remove that portion of the material that can interfere with the overall flattening of a lp. I also use (2) 1 &3/4" fender washers on the outer plates as a replacement for the standard washers.
So far this seems to work very well. Having the outer 11& 3/4" diameter still works well for outer edge flattening without going so far over as to overcompensate for this problem.
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I managed to ruin an LP.In pouch for same time period as other similiar weight records,but virgin vinyl pressing.Melted the record. |
In answer to the heavier vinyl question, my experience has been that the Vinyl Flat is more effective on heavier vinyl for whatever reason. The 180 gm and 200 gm discs have come out the flattest for me. |
I agree on the pouch time. Seems pretty unlikely that a record could "over cook" in this thing. I have found some records that aren't fixed by it but the ones that are more than make up for that. |
Based upon the great input from the Steve Hoffman web site, I recently purchased a very nice Beatles Blue Box. It is a 1982 version of the Box. Maybe not the Holly Grail but really nice all analog records. The one problem I had with the box is that several records were warped. Two of the records, With the Beatles and Revolver, would not track on my VPI Scoutmaster with Soundsmith VPI/Zephyr cartridge. I started looking around on e-bay for replacements of similar vintage. The problem is that other than the warps, the records were in fantastic condition. Maybe played once or twice at the most.
A year ago or so, I read about the Viny Flat in Stereophile in a Stephen Mejias article. He is a skilled writer, and in-spite of a catastrophic failure, I figured I would give it a try. Since StephenĀs failure involved cooking the record in the oven, I skipped the oven and bought the Vinyl Flat Groovy Pouch.
I went right for it and tried fixing With the Beatles. My first attempt followed the instructions and cooked the record in the Groovy Pouch for 4 hours. I allowed the record to cool in the Vinyl Flat, without heat, for another 4 hours of so. Yes, the record was approximately 50% better but it still caused my cartridge to miss-track. I then tried 6 hours in the Groovy Pouch. Now the record tracked but still had a hump that caused an audible noise. I next let the record cook for 12 hours and cool in the Vinyl Flat for another 12 hours. What came out of this process was a nearly perfectly flat record without any trace of damage to the record. It played and looked perfect!! Next was Revolver which I just let cook right off the bat for 12 hours and allowed it to cool in the Vinyl Flat for nearly a week. On the first attempt, Revolver was fixed. I now have a nearly perfect Beatles Blue Box.
I cannot say enough about this product. I also cannot imagine a scenario where the system, using the Groovy Pouch, would damage a record. It cooks it low and slow. My advice to anyone who tries the Vinyl Flat is to be patient. Let it cook a long time and then let it cool a long time in the Vinyl Flat. Also, spend the extra $60.00 and buy the Groovy Pouch. I would not use the oven. Also note that the Beatles Blue Box records were pressed on pretty thin vinyl. I donĀt have any experience using this product with heavier vinyl. My guess is that the cook times would be very long. My start time for any record, heavy or thin vinyl, would be 8 hours and move to longer times depending upon the result.
The Vinyl Flat and companion Groovy Pouch is a fantastic product at a nice price. It is very well constructed and should last a life time. If there is one concern, the Groovy Pouch seems a bit fragile but I handle it with some caution and expect it to last a life time. If you have some valuable, but warped records, give this product a shot. I think you will be happily surprised at the results.
Dale |
Rarely has the Vinyl Flat not at least improved a warp for me. In many cases, it eliminates them. I have no experience with 45s but I would assume a properly sized groovy ring would optimize results. |
Although I've noticed from my own, non-scientific tests that the Vinyl Flat works, it works like a charm. I appreciate all of you who go to the extremes in testing, but IMO, no need. I've had experiences in which, say, Janis Ian "Between the Lines" original pressing was wavy when I bought it used. I put it in the pouch for 4 hours, it came out basically the same, I put it in for 4.5 hours, still pretty much the same. This "original" lp must be of a different vinyl formulation. Just a note, the lp sounded great before and great after. I've had more positive results with the same weight vinyl in other trials. The main point here is, with the pouch, I think it's impossible to destroy the grooves. I've flattend at least 100 lps, on two, I've left them in 3 hours longer than usual, NO DAMAGE to the grooves. This is an extremely well thought out product and the most enjoyable product I've ever purchased in the pursuit of vinyl playback. My personal finding is for a regular weight lp, 4.5 hours, a 180gr. 4.45 hours. This can vary upward when the warp is more severe than usual.
Sonfjim: After reservations, I emailed John Martindale about the 45 issue, he said no problem. I subsequently tried one, first at 4 hours, then at 4.5 hours. NO DAMAGE. |
Bigrod,
From what I see you're trying to flatten 7" 45s with the vinyl flat, right? I don't know that they make a 7" groovy ring. If they do, I haven't seen it. If you're using the 12" ring on a 45 I'm not surprised you're befuddled because you've missed the point entirely somehow. You may as well be using two sheets of glass in the oven or whatever. That doesn't work at all, I've tried it. IMO the reason the Vinyl Flat DOES work is that the groovy rings contact the playing surface intimately. The outer lip of an LP is raised as is the label. This leaves plenty of play for the LP to stay warped or warp in different places between two sheets of glass or anything else in an oven. Contact the maker and ask if they can produce a ring for 7" 45s. I have used this device and it is the ONLY thing I've ever tried that actually does work. No affect on sonics that I can tell what so ever. IMO the heating times for the pouch are way on the conservative side and in no way would I ever try to flatten a 45 without a custom sized ring. This is not that hard to understand. Why has no one explained this to Bigrod yet? |
well i don`t have a thermometer so i`m assuming if it is not accurate it is probably higher. yes i spoke to vinyl flat. he said at 170 to be careful; to start at 10 and probably go for no more thasn 20 min. i put in aretha franklin on checker with a pinch warps for over 20 min and no affect at all. here`s my rub. everytime you see anybody here on the net talk about flattening records with any method,it always seems to be albums. and i can see that as albums are not raised in the center so the weight is on the whole record with direct contact and not just hovering over the middle of the record. the other thing is; vinyl flat`s sheet that tells you the heating and cooling times for the different labels and for usin in the oven gives the gram weight of the particular label. well,these gram weights are all for lps obviously no 45 would weigh 95 grams and up. even if a 45 was 2 0zs that would only be 56 grams. so if they experimented on 45s; where are the results for it?? i will try ther oven with some milder warps for however long. if i keep getting no difference,this item will be returned. has anyone here personally flattened out any 45s with more than a slight warp via any method? if in the oven,what was the exact particulars and results? |
Bigrod62563,
Have you tired calling Vinyl Flat about this? I spoke with then when I had some questions about their products. They should be able to help.
One thing that is clear when using the oven is that you need to be certain that the temperature is accurate. Double check with your own thermometer instead of trusting the dial. |
What about using two pieces of 1/2" thick glass? |
ok everyone here seems to have experimented with lps,all good and well. but i`m concerned with 45s. i haven`t had any success with the groovy pouch at all. i had a stevie wonder i wish with a pinch warp in for several hours,no change. girl watcher ABC with a severe edge warp for several hours,no change. and an aretha franklin on checker with a few pinch warps on for 11.5 hours,no change. anybody want to comment on this? i`m wondering if i should use the oven. i did a 10 min on 170 with a pinch warp motown record with no effect either. also put 2 minor warped 45s in the groovy pouch for 3-4 hours with no change. |
Hello guys,
I am the one with the Steely Dan "Aja" LP that had a severe warp that Wntrmute2 was kind enough to use his Vinyl Flat on.
The Vinyl Flat did an excellent job of getting the LP back to a flat and listenable LP. I think the sound quality suffered by about 25-30%. The dynamics and extension seem to have diminished. The overall sound has less life and sparkle. I am sure many of you own this LP and know how good these tracks are. Lots of percussion, stellar guitar work, horn section with great musicianship and vocals.
I would like to thank Wntrmute2 for his time and patience while he had the LP in his possession. This was a serious warp and I would have thought it near impossible to play properly, Ever! It took a lot of time and several extended sessions in the Vinyl Flat. I am happy with the results. Thank goodness I have another clean and well produced copy of Steely Dan's "Aja". |
Update. I am being sent a new pouch.
Exceptionally good service from John at VF. |
My pouch died after 3 days of use.
(purchased last week)
You may have better luck.
As nothing was flattened while it worked I have ordered a
Cuisinart TOB-195BCC Exact Heat(TM) Convection Toaster Oven
Will accommodate 12' pizzas so should be fine.
looked at reviews for the Breville Smartoven mentioned above.
Plenty of complaints of oven dying after
one year of use and next to no customer support.
The Cuisinart had the highest rating. |
I played it after the long hot soak. Sounded fine to me but I was playing it on a system I had just assembled. I recently returned the album to the owner. let's see what Tom has to say about the sound! |
48 hours in the pouch? Do you notice any sonic changes after that long. I may try that on my Mofi Slowhand that just doesn't want to comply. |
thanks for the video clips, they were very helpful |
A fellow sent me this Steely Dan Aja album to try and flatten. After multiple attempts; 6 hours, then 12 hours, then 24 hours and finally 48 hours in the vinyl flat and pouch, the thing is pretty flat. labor intensive but ultimately successful. I'm going to try and post the link to the clips.
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/WntrMute2/Video/?action=viewĀ¤t=AjaSideBPre.mp4
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/WntrMute2/Video/?action=viewĀ¤t=2012-01-30_18-17-31_247.mp4
http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/WntrMute2/Video/?action=viewĀ¤t=2012-01-30_17-52-45_675.mp4 |
Did you check/feel to ensure the pouch was warm? Mine was intermittent heating at first. |
Give Vinyl Flat a call. I had a question about their product and they were super helpful. Probably get farthe doing that than talking to us bozos. |
I have now tried the oven at a confirmed 150 degrees and still no change in this Mofi disc from the 70's. I think I'll stop on this one after three cycle for fear of destroying the one playable side. The vinyl flat obviously can't fix everything but I've had enough success already that I'm more than sold. I think I may draw the line at two runs. If twice doesn't do it I'll stop unless I really just don't care what happens. This make 5 successes to one failure. Not too bad considering a zero success rate with other methods. |
I use my vinyl flat in a Breville Smartoven - a small tabletop toaster/convection oven. Works like a charm and regulates temps evenly. |
Well, it was about 11 hours in the pouch. To my surprise this LP is unchanged. This is in stark contrast to every other LP I've tried thus far. Obviously vinyl from different sources may vary in chemical composition. Anyone else tried this on an older Mofi? Maybe they're more refractory to intervention. It certainly is no worse than before with the same beautiful sheen. If worse comes to worse I can just keep this one for side two.
At any rate, the risk involved in experimenting with this thing seems to be quite small. I do think I'll try the oven trick suggested by Miner42 but I'll need to pick up a couple thermometers first to make sure the temperature in my oven is accurate. |
based on my experience, leaving it in the pouch an extended period, 8-10-12 hours will solve major warpage look forward to sonofjim's results....
best chump change I ever spent on vinyl..... |
I suggest trying the 150 degree oven trick for 45 - 55 minutes then let it cool. It worked well for a bad warped LP I had. |
I may have finally come across an LP that can't be helped. I have a copy of Mofi's Slowhand that has bad dish warping. I've kept it because side two plays flat, especially with a clamp on the record. Side one is dished up and undulated all over the place. Even if my stylus will track this I don't like to subject it to that obstacle course. A four hour run in the pouch didn't change anything(all I had time for). Maybe Mofi vinyl is different somehow. Anyway, I'm going to try an ultra long run all day while I'm at work. Really nothing to lose here and I'd like this LP if it were flat. We'll see. |
Stringreen: We should all be so lucky. I recently got mine with the Groovy Pouch, followed the directions and I'm a very happy customer.
Important: Clean records first, use Groovy Pouch, follow directions...No problems |
I have had mine since Mid-Dec '11 and it has worked on all LPs I have tried it on. |
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I also confirm the Vinyl Flat really work and perform as it's intending to be. I have been using it with the pouch to my 20-30 warped LPs and I can say 99% of the result is amazing. Just only few LPs which severely wrap that first 2-3 rounds in the Vinyl Flat still doesn't help (maybe some more few rounds are to be taken).
My method, after 4-6 hours of baking, I will allow the Flat disk to be totally cool down (it may take around 45 minutes), then I will un-screw the disk and get the LP off. I will not rush in getting the LP off the disk while it is still warm.
From my experience, this cheap device works as it's advertised... |
The Legacy 50th Anniversary Kind of Blue on blue 180gm vinyl which was dish warped with a nasty bump up on the outer edge came out of the pouch after 6 hours almost perfectly flat and sounds great. My 312s Magnesium would track this before but I didn't like what it may be doing to the cartridge suspension. So, another impressive success and still no untoward side effects or failures. I'm definitely sold. Of course, I'd prefer to just have a flat disc from the start but this should help salvage almost anything that's not. |
Ripple warp- check
Dish warp- Let's see.
Only thing let would be a pinch warp which of course would probably be the hardest to address.
Let us know. |
Swampwalker,
That's what I'm saying. It does just that and it's the first time I've had any success at all doing something like this. I made a copy of Al Di Meola's Hotel Splendido that had severe ripple warps play with very little tonearm movement at all and this record sounds great, still. At this price, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend trying this to anyone. If you have a group of friends to share one with even better. Currently, I'm flattening the Legacy 50th anniversary pressing of Kind of Blue. This set was fairly well done but horribly packaged. I found one for $30 but with a dish warp. I'm optimistic. We'll see. |
SonofJim- It either works or it doesn't. Your opinion is good enough for me. Sounds much less complicated that a dry mount press, which is basically what the Furutech is. AS for any changes in sound, the basic question, IMO, is whether it makes an unplayable or severely compromised LP and makes it playable. if it does, and has a minor impact on sound, then so be it. |
My interest was peaked by this thread so I ordered the Vinyl Flat and pouch and have been experimenting with it. I was skeptical. I've tried several methods of flattening discs without success. Short answer? This works. I think the key is even pressure and controlled heat. The fact that these groovy rings avoid the label step up as well as the one at the outer rim is very important. Even pressure is applied to the playing surface only. I also like the pouch because it take the guess work out of heat application. The records I've tried have come out much more playable with no noted change in sound quality. The one thing I would say based on my experience is to error on the long side with heating times. The first record I tried really didn't improve on a 3.5 hour trial. I retried it and went way to a party all night. I forgot about it and came home and went to bed. After 11 hours in the heated pouch I thought all may be lost. The record was nearly perfectly flat after cooling and sounded the same as before. Currently, I'm going 6-7 hours. Let it cool to room temp before opening. To me, the Furotech is way too expensive. This system is safe, effective and affordable. That passes FDA standards. I don't know how much weight my opinion carries on these forums(I'm no Doug Deacon I know that)but I give this thing my recommendation. If you have a large collection you have enough warped vinyl to make this product well worth the price. |
Offer is still open. I'll try to flatten a few LPs for those that want to see if this thing works. No promises, it has worked for me on the few I've tried but I've been too busy to work through my collection. |
I only just noticed Dave's kind offer. Will shoot him an email today. |
Did you folks ever key up on flattening that record? |
I'd be happy to try and flatten it for you. Contact me at WntrMute2@aol.com
Dave |
Oh, happy to turn on anyone to Lambchop. "Damaged" is ironically enough the LP I have that is damaged. Also my favorite of theirs. Seeing Lambchop and Belle & Sebastian back to back with their full accompaniment was a real treat 6 or 7 years back. Guess I will need to just pull the trigger. |
Hey Roscoe, I'm in Canada, the shipping back and forth might prove problematic. I'd say pull the trigger. And thanks for addicting me to yet another artist I hadn't encountered prior.... |
I've got a mighty warped Lampchop LP I could send you to put it through its paces. Totally unplayable as is. And simple well-recorded material. Or maybe I finally just pull the trigger on one of these myself... |
Yeah, I'm not about to put a flat well-heard and cherished Bluenote in there to be absolutely critical, but I dont hear anything untoward in the few acoustic bits and quiet passages. I think we're alright here.....LOL |
Yeah, evaluating an improvement in sound or correct sound based on a shoegaze album is a bit tricky for sure. |
The connection on the pouch needs a little fiddling but the third time is a charm. 2nd and 3rd efforts it was on all night, ie 8 hours plus each. Came out flat enough the last time that my Sota Star was able to seal the vacuum lip. I'm not familiar with the LP and it is basic garage/shoe gazer rock so guitar distortion is abundant but nothing seems out of place sound-wise. Success I'd say... |
My problem may be the Pouch. It has been plugged in for about 4 hours, and when I went by just a few minutes ago, I put my hand on it and it was cool. Fiddled with the connection a bit and it started warming up.
It was warm yesterday after I set it up initially, but I moved it to a preferred location and it might have gone cold. So another 4.5 hours as long as it remains working. |
Based on my understanding from conversation with Vinyl Flat, multiple rounds may be required for more warped records. Especially 180g I would expect. |
My first attempt at 5 hours on a severely warped (it was unplayable)new 180 gram LP did not work. It appeared it may have improved somewhat but still pretty warped. So now it's in for a second run.... |
