New Townshend Rock 7 owner
If all goes well, I should be able to get it up and running with one exception, my phono stage is not balanced. Since the original owner bought this from a respected dealer as a package, I think my best route would be to get a pair of RCA to XLR adapters in order to hear the package as close as possible as was intended.
Any thoughts on that aspect? What brand adapters would be recommended? Also, any thing I might need to know from experienced users to help with set-up? Thanks.
slaw I guess if your turntable setup is far away from where you sit and you mistakenly select 33 RPM when it should be 45 r p.m. and you can easily use a remote to switch it it makes sense. Or vice versa if you selected 45 RPM and it's a 33 RPM record. Then you wouldn't have to get up. But I did this the other night chose 33rpm when it should have been 45 RPM but did not Discover it until I was several minutes into the record. So I had to get up anyway to put the tone on back to the beginning of the recording.I have tried switching power cables on the Merlin power supply going from a basic 15 amp power cord to an inexpensive power cord. So far it hasn't made a difference but it was only one session. |
slaw A remote that's interesting. It would seem Superfluous with a t t system. Yes I know Max changed Motors also. The Rock7 underwent changes as it developed. My dealer has commented he felt the rock 7 came to Market a little too soon. This coincides with comments on This Thread about lack of detail concerning tolerances of the turntable setup. Like the problem I just had did not have a solution until someone complained about the problem. |
slaw I don't I don't really know if different wire types would make a difference with a DIN type connector. I'm just using the standard 15 amp power cord that comes stock with the power supply. For experimentation I think I'll try several different power cords I have for Source components in place of the stock cord to see if there is a difference. |
slawMy power supply is about 14 inches long and 2 inches wide. on the front it has the MERLIN name in large letters and underneath in small letters it says electronic turntable supply. I understood your question concerning the connection to the motor but I cannot offer an opinion as to which TYPE of wire might be better. |
slawThe work on my Townsend Rock7 TT is complete. The platter was leveled first by using the Outrigger. What's since my Symposium Ultra was not completely level are used shims in the two rear corners true level the planner in that plane. the the Merlin motor was lowered and the sub platter was raised using spacers which was added into the design by Max of later Rock7 models. The Merlin Motor was then raised to the point where it was level to the sub platter and then moved to a position to get the speed right. The speed 33 RPM and 45 RPM were checked using a strobe. The belt now rides on the correct position in the middle of the sub platter and also correct on the motor housing. There are no issues concerning the platter rubbing against the top of the belt as before. |
slawI have purchased the tools that I need to do the work including a small spirit level to help with the leveling of the platter. I have been a little busy to get this project going and I'm waiting for a friend who is going to help with me and they should be coming over in about a week or two.Thanks for the interest if I have any questions I'll let you know and will keep you posted. |
@parrotbee , Thanks so much for your post. I haven't read through this thread in a while, but I seem to remember a lot of what you just reminded us all of. Your research is to be appreciated my friend. I hope that I can find the time/motivation to do the same. I need to do a simple test...take my motor out of it's pod and discover exactly what motor it really is. FWIW & BTW, I have a Moerch DP-8 w/ Nordost Vahallia tonearm cable waiting in the wings. |
dear @slaw I have a heavily modified Rock Elite: 1. Berher Lahrs motor (from a DPS) 2. Acrylic platter 3. origin live belt 4. Bernard Fuss two phase power supply. I have posted to @bdp24 about this before. My actual reasoning is as follows. To my ears the only weakness of the elite was what I associate with most belt drive decks, and that is that under load they suffer stylus drag. The only deck that does not have the drag that I had heard was a DPS model 2. Someone had a DPS model 2 motor and speed control up for sale. The DPS motor is a high torque Berger lairs that runs at 500 rpm. Thankfully the motor came with the pulley and the pod. The Elite platter has a wider diameter at the bottom compared to the top, so I needed a platter that would allow a peripheral belt so I got one made to the same thickness by TizoAcryl - they also drilled the hole so as to go on the same spindle. I use a very thick bearing grease on the spindle to provide more resistance to the driving belt (this was to follow the DPS theory) I was researching two phase power supplies and found a German review on one made by Bernard Fuss - It was considered to be a good upgrade on a transrotor power supply. In respect of the belt I unfortunately order one that Is way too long - requiring that the motor pod is placed a fair bit from the main chassis. I went for origin live coz I heard good things about it. _______________ The result was exactly as I hoped, in simplistic terms it is analogous to focusing a lens. What happened most clearly was that when passages got heavy and complex there was no slowing down. This meant that bass was much better defined and in fact deeper. I also found that the soundstage became more stable. I would love to hear it against any other Townshend because but for very recent Rock 7's which I believe have DC motors (please do not quote me on that) the rest have all used the Phillips/Airpax motors which have very little torque. To my ears at least I am a timing freak, and a bit of torque in the drive system really works wonders - it's where I think why so many people like Idlers and DD's. ________________ In terms of tonearms I have a Mission/Jelco mounted at present, however, I use a Nordost tyr tonearm cable. In addition to this I have a brand new Helius Orion that I got Geoff to make has ceramic bearings as opposed to ruby bearings. I also have Moerch DP6 That said I think @slaw touched upon the fact that Max does rate the bearings on a Rega arm and the way it transfers energy. So maybe an RB1000 may be the way to go? All said and done - the trough very much takes the arm out of the equation - I will report back on this, because the Jelco's have good wiring internally. ________________ To conclude - I have a real soft spot for this turntable. I always wanted a Townshend from when I first saw one in a magazine aged 17 - when I had the money - Townshend were not making any decks - so I got something else - which I am also very fond of. I bought my elite second hand and it came with a Pickering XSV4000 MM - another discovery - but that's a story for another day |
roadwarrior75 Honestly I don't think I could be of much help as the Symposium Ultra was the first platform that I used with any piece of equipment. I have used it on 2 TT systems and will say that going from no platform to the symposium was a huge difference. The Symposium Ultra was quite expensive I MO but well worth it. |
@parrotbee , I happened to buy mine in a package deal/used. While I don't have anything to compare the Merlin to, I don't think it's the greatest thing. My table has always run fast. I love my FF mat as well as the Mark Baker belt...two great upgrades for the Rock7. For the heck of it, I put my ADS in front of the Merlin and that improved the sound by seemingly making slightly bright recordings more listenable. Do you have any suggestions regarding motor/controllers? |
@roadwarrior75, I too live in an older house with "bouncy floors". I use a wall mount system. I have an upgraded wall mount system I haven’t put into service yet. Better than explaining....if you look at my virtual system, you’ll see my current set-up and the details of my future set-up.As far as the svelte shelf/rollerblocks.....I really don’t like to comment on items I have not used myself. Not knowing anything about your rack or support structure, my feeling is the rollerblocks maybe overkill? |
slaw thanks for your input all good advice. Yes Harbor Freight is a great idea I have a store it's fairly local and I plan to purchase a set of T handle metric hex and a regular set of metric hex tools. I also ordered 2 bubble levels as mine were no longer working properly. Hope to get this project started shortly. Will keep you posted. |
@nsp , When you screw the feet clockwise, that effectively lowers the plinth. The main reason I like to set mine up this way is that I know that this part of the set-up is now out of thought out of mind. In addition I believe having the feet all the way screwed in makes the tt just a little more stable. (This is just my opinion). To change the feet' position, you loosen the top allen screw the turn the feet, then tighten the screw.Off the top of my head I don't remember the size of all of the wrenches needed. If you have a Harbor Freight nearby or if not, you can mail order a pack each of American/Metric at very little cost. Everybody needs tools.The plinth is always the first part to level. Make sure when your plinth is level, your tonearm mounting plate is level as well. I had to shim mine. |
bdp24Thanks for the info on the London cartridges. Yes I do remember Harvey Rosenberg in fact I have his tube book published quite some time ago.I see your point about changing the loading resistors to change the value of the MM loading. I could probably easily do this as I have a technician close by I also have the schematics of my unit.But doing this might void my warranty not sure. I demoed the Zesto Andros phone stage which has the 15K setting you referred to. But I purchased the Hagerman trumpet reference tubed phono stage as it was significantly better than the Zesto but not much more money. It comes with a 10-year warranty and I'm about 6 years into it so I would have to check that out.Good advice on the decapod optional mount it's also something to consider. I'm going to have to read up on the London cartridges more and seek them out. Not sure who are the u.s. distributor is? Or if there is a dealer Network in the United States. |
slawI have to agree that the Symposium Ultra platform is not exactly flat all the way around. The Rock seven is the second TT that I've used the Symposium with and it's such a good upgrade it's well worth it.Regarding the three feet of the base of the rock 7 the screws ARE above the level of the feets top surface right now.I'm not sure if the feet are screwed all the way in at this position. If I could screw the feet in More this should change the level of the plinth by raising it(correct?) I might solve my problem by aligning the motor housing to the top of the plinth. the feet position could be changed with an allen key I believe. Do you know the correct size and Tool type for the three screws to adjust the motor height?Max lifted 3 hex keys on his inventory sheet they came with the table of 2, 5, and 6 mm. I have only two screwdriver pieces the came with my unit the do not fit those screws on the motor housing.I remember the dealer who set up the table using a t screwdriver but I don't recall the size.Based on your response I could decide which way to go first with the the leveling of the motor to the plinth. |
@slaw, I too would have to be considered old school (as well as somewhat old ;-), and our definitions of plinth are the same (see my post above): it is the "body" of the turntable (in a suspended sub-chassis table like the VPI HW-19, the Linn Sondek, the Oracles, AR’s, etc., the floating sub-chassis) that the platter’s bearing and (usually) the tonearm are mounted onto that I call the plinth. On a non-suspended table (the VPI Aries, the Regas), the plinth is usually one solid piece of either most often either MDF or acrylic, again onto which the platter bearing and arm are mounted. On the Rock Elite, the motor is also mounted directly onto the plinth, same as the Regas. Whereas the Rega plinths are just a slab of MDF, the Elite’s is a shallow upside-down metal pan filled with damping pads and Plaster-of-Paris---very inert (non-resonant) and high mass. The motor height is not adjustable, nor does it need to be; both it’s and the sub-platter’s (the metal part that is attached to the bearing spindle, and upon which sits the 12" platter) height have been engineered so as to situate the belt in the center of the sub-platter, no adjustment necessary. @nsp, the loading of the Londons (and older Deccas) is a matter of some opinion. The instruction manuals of some models recommend 47k, others 22k. The older Deccas were much more variable than are the current Londons, so no one figure was universal. Harvey Rosenberg (of New York Audio Labs fame, known for his love and knowledge of Deccas) told me he preferred 10k with his Deccas (this was back in the 1980’s). Zesto Audio provides a 15k setting on the MM input of their phono stage, specifically for Decca/Londons. The loading resistors in any phono stage can be easily changed by a technician; it takes only a few minutes. If you want to give a London a try, I recommend getting one with the optional Decapod mount; it provides a much firmer mechanical mating to the tonearm, and makes the cartridge body less resonant, less microphonic. The London Super Gold retails for around $1500, and may be the one to try first. The Reference is around $5300, a lot of $ to take a gamble on! |
@nsp & @bdp24, I must be old school.....I always refer to plinth as any material the tt bearing is attached to. In the Rock 7's case it is the thick piece of metal. @nsp ,, (BTW, my Rock 7 is on an Ultra as well right now. It isn't perfectly flat). Regarding how our belts are riding on our pulleys....the difference is, my motor housing height is about as low as one can get it whereas I believe yours is way too high. The belt should never hit the white platter. Actually, it's common for, in a correct set-up, for the belt to slide down to the (plinth) when the motor is cut off. (This is dependent on the pulley distance or belt tension.) Upon turning the motor back on, you can watch the belt ride back up on the pulley. It's kind a fascinating actually. This is because of the conical shape of the pulley. |
slaw My rock7 is on top of the symposium Ultra platform. If you read my previous post bdp24 I explained that the top of my belt rubs slightly on the bottom of the white platter which holds the record. I also mentioned that my motor housing which has three set screws is significantly higher then the top of the plinth and Max said in his guideline that these two should be even in heigth. I was wondering if the top of your motor housing is level with the top of your plinth? Also the belt position on my motor housing rides quite low which is another reason I believe the motor housing should be lowered on my system. The three set screws on the motor housing seem to be a hexagonal configuration. Do you know the correct tool that fits the screw holes? I have to screwdrivers that came with unit but I think they are for adjusting the angle of the motor . Just wanted to let you know that I appreciate any help that you and bdp 24 or anyone else can give me as I plan to become more Hands-On and knowledgeable with this setup as I used to be with previous turntables and tone arms that I owned. |
bdp24 Thanks for the clarification I have the terminology straight now. The top of the belt is what is rubbing slightly on the bottom of the white platter which holds the 12-inch record. It's not a problem with the built hitting or rubbing against the plinth. I think as I mentioned in my previous post the top of my motor housing is significantly higher then the top of the plinth. I think lowering the motor housing would help this problem. I read with interest your comments about the London Decca cartridge. Is yours the London Decca reference? All of the attributes you described is what I'm looking for in a cartridge. You mentioned it's a good match with the zRock7's damping but you also mentioned a caveat concerning loading. My stand-alone tubed phono stage only has one moving magnet setting 47k. Is this a mismatched in your opinion? |
@nsp , What type of shelf do you have the Rock 7 on? Whatever it is, check for flatness. You’d be surprised that several materials look flat to the naked eye but are not. I have my Rock set up with it’s feet screwed all the way in. IMO, this is the best way. Leveling can be done with the Rock’s ingenious adjustable outrigger weight or by the platform itself assuming you have the platform on adjustable feet. (I find in my set up, the motor pod’s set screws are just barely enough to get the pod off of my platform.) @bdp24, The Merlin motor housing has 3 adjustment screws, I think your table’s motor housing may have no adjustment capability, just shims. One question, when you are adjusting the pulley’s angle/level, is the platter on or off the tt? This will also depend on the pulley distance......what I’ve found is if I adjust the pulley with the platter off and start the motor, sometimes the belt will look fine until I put the platter back in place. Another thing to consider is the platter levelness when doing all of this set up. I swing the trough back to it’s normal position and keep the tonearm at it’s resting place. Then use a weight on the platter ( in my case a brass 3/4lb weight). I keep a small bubble level on the tonearm mounting plate always. Mine is set up where if this bubble level is centered I know my set -up is accurate. Once I know the platter is level I make sure to orient the platter to a reference point for later. This way I can now remove the platter and re-install it with changing the level. When I look at my belt’s position on my pulley, it in slightly above centered. Once you get familiar with the tt and all of it’s needs, the set up process will become more natural to you. |
@nsp, the Zeta is a cult item from the 1980’s and 90’s, far better known in the UK than in the U.S. It was a favorite with users of the idiosyncratic Decca cartridges, who also liked the Rock. In fact, the Rock was developed using the Decca cartridge. Regarding the nomenclature used for the various parts of the Rock Mk.7, the 12" round disc the LP is placed on (it’s white on the Rock Mk.7) is always referred to as a platter. In most tables, the "body" of the table that the platter’s bearing and usually the tonearm are mounted onto is called a plinth. As the body of the Rock Mk.7 is so "skeletal", it’s hard to think of it as having a plinth! At any rate, the belt should not touch the 12" white platter, or anything else other than the metal sub-platter. Changing the height of the motor pod to effect where the belt rides on the sub-platter is simple---just shim it with a thin sheet of any material of your choice---metal, acrylic, wood whatever. Or place it on little "footers" of your choice---you can try hard materials and softer, see what you prefer. |
slaw yes I understand the belt goes around the sub platter/ motor pulley. What I referred to as the platter maybe what you call the plinth. The plinth is what the record is placed on top of. As Max says in his diagram the belt should never touch a platter or the chassis. in in my situation the top of the belt scrapes ever so slightly against the bottom of the plinth/ platter. I eyeballed and try to I I bald and try to measure the top of the motor housing to the top of the chassis. My motor housing top is significantly higher than the top of the chassis. It's not a half inch but maybe a quarter of an inch. I think this is the problem.On your setup are the top of the motor housing and the top of the chassis the same height? |
@nsp, the Triplanar, another mighty fine arm! Another good arm for the Rock is any of the Kuzmas. It has been said that the Rock minimizes differences between arms, but differences nonetheless remain. An arm partnered a lot with the old Rock Elite (Mk.2) was the Zeta, the combination I own. Right after the Rock Mk.7 was introduced, I ran into Max at CES in Vegas, and asked him how much better than the Mk.2 was the Mk.7, and he said "just", positioning his thumb and pointed finger with but a tiny gap between them. I intend to eventually own a Mk.7, but until then, my Elite will suffice ;-) . |
slawI couldn't find a manual for the Rock 7 on the vinyl engine website you listed. I was able to locate my TT manual and the first thing I plan to do over the weekend is check the height of the turntable motor housing compared to the top surface of the chassis which is supposed to be even according to the pictures and written diagram.I would think that if the belt is rubbing on the bottom of the platter that the motor housing should be lowered slightly to give it more space away from the platter? |
slawThanks I think I may have the manual. I will look for it and review it. My dealer my be coming over in a couple of weeks and I can enlist his help also. BTW- I think there is a Rock 7 w/ Merlin power supply and a Helius tonearm which the owner wants to sell. If you know of anyone interested or anyone who reads this forum with interest PM me for info. |
Your dealer is correct. It's a finessed combination of pulley angle and pulley distance. Did your tt come with Townshends manual? You may be able to download one or ask your dealer for help getting one or look on www.vinylengine.com |
slaw I own the latest model Townsend Rock 7w/the Merlin power supply. I have been periodically following this forum.My question for you is: the belt on my unit does scrape the bottom of the platter somewhat. I shimmed under the 3 feet of the base with thin pieces of cardboard and this helped although did not completely resolve problem. Is there a better solution /have you worked with this problem?My dealer who set it up said changing the motor angle will solve the problem . But doesn't changing that angle also affect the speed of the turntable which is currently not a problem on my unit ? Would appreciate any feedback you can provide. If you have addressed this in a previous section of this forum let me know where to find it.Nick |