New Townshend Rock 7 owner

@nsp,

A remote? I assume it was to change platter speed, still?????

I agree with the direction of your post.

@nsp,

It's interesting as to how many iterations there seem to be of the Rock 7/Merlin. I've seen pictures of the Merlin power supply with a remote.

@nsp ,

My power supply says Merlin 3.

@nsp,

I haven't. The cord connecting the motor to the power supply (by the way, mine says Merlin 3 on it) has a DIN type connector on the motor side. Does this have any significance when choosing another cord? I'm mainly talking about the type of wire being used.

@nsp ,

Great to hear! Look forward to your listening impressions.

@nsp ,

Would love to hear back. What arm are you planning on using?

@nsp ,

Any progress?

@parrotbee ,

Thanks so much for your post. I haven't read through this thread in a while, but I seem to remember a lot of what you just reminded us all of. Your research is to be appreciated my friend. I hope that I can find the time/motivation to do the same. I need to do a simple test...take my motor out of it's pod and discover exactly what motor it really is.

FWIW & BTW, I have a Moerch DP-8 w/ Nordost Vahallia  tonearm cable waiting in the wings.

Yes. It was a huge performance jump.

@parrotbee ,


I happened to buy mine in a package deal/used. While I don't have anything to compare the Merlin to, I don't think it's the greatest thing. My table has always run fast. I love my FF mat as well as the Mark Baker belt...two great upgrades for the Rock7.

For the heck of it, I put my ADS in front of the Merlin and that improved the sound by seemingly making slightly bright recordings more listenable. Do you have any suggestions regarding motor/controllers?

@roadwarrior75,
I too live in an older house with "bouncy floors". I use a wall mount system. I have an upgraded wall mount system I haven’t put into service yet. Better than explaining....if you look at my virtual system, you’ll see my current set-up and the details of my future set-up.As far as the svelte shelf/rollerblocks.....I really don’t like to comment on items I have not used myself. Not knowing anything about your rack or support structure, my feeling is the rollerblocks maybe overkill?

@nsp,

I meant to write, "The (platter) is always the first part to level. Make sure when your (platter) is level, your tonearm mounting plate is level as well.

@nsp ,
When you screw the feet clockwise, that effectively lowers the plinth. The main reason I like to set mine up this way is that I know that this part of the set-up is now out of thought out of mind. In addition I believe having the feet all the way screwed in makes the tt just a little more stable. (This is just my opinion). To change the feet' position, you loosen the top allen screw the turn the feet, then tighten the screw.Off the top of my head I don't remember the size of all of the wrenches needed. If you have a Harbor Freight nearby or if not, you can mail order a pack each of American/Metric at very little cost. Everybody needs tools.The plinth is always the first part to level. Make sure when your plinth is level, your tonearm mounting plate is level as well. I had to shim mine.

@nsp  & @bdp24,
I must be old school.....I always refer to plinth as any material the tt bearing is attached to. In the Rock 7's case it is the thick piece of metal.
@nsp ,,
(BTW, my Rock 7 is on an Ultra as well right now. It isn't perfectly flat).
Regarding how our belts are riding on our pulleys....the difference is,  my motor housing height is about as low as one can get it whereas I believe yours is way too high. The belt should never hit the white platter. Actually, it's common for, in a correct set-up, for the belt to slide down to the (plinth) when the motor is cut off. (This is dependent on the pulley distance or belt tension.) Upon turning the motor back on, you can watch the belt ride back up on the pulley. It's kind a fascinating actually. This is because of the conical shape of the pulley.

@nsp ,
What type of shelf do you have the Rock 7 on? Whatever it is, check for flatness. You’d be surprised that several materials look flat to the naked eye but are not. I have my Rock set up with it’s feet screwed all the way in. IMO, this is the best way. Leveling can be done with the Rock’s ingenious adjustable outrigger weight or by the platform itself assuming you have the platform on adjustable feet. (I find in my set up, the motor pod’s set screws are just barely enough to get the pod off of my platform.)
@bdp24, The Merlin motor housing has 3 adjustment screws, I think your table’s motor housing may have no adjustment capability, just shims.

One question, when you are adjusting the pulley’s angle/level, is the platter on or off the tt? This will also depend on the pulley distance......what I’ve found is if I adjust the pulley with the platter off and start the motor, sometimes the belt will look fine until I put the platter back in place. Another thing to consider is the platter levelness when doing all of this set up. I swing the trough back to it’s normal position and keep the tonearm at it’s resting place. Then use a weight on the platter ( in my case a brass 3/4lb weight). I keep a small bubble level on the tonearm mounting plate always. Mine is set up where if this bubble level is centered I know my set -up is accurate. Once I know the platter is level I make sure to orient the platter to a reference point for later. This way I can now remove the platter and re-install it with changing the level.
When I look at my belt’s position on my pulley, it in slightly above centered. Once you get familiar with the tt and all of it’s needs, the set up process will become more natural to you.

@nsp ,

You do know the belt NEVER touches the platter...it goes around the sub-platter/motor pulley.

@nsp,

You keep writing "the belt is rubbing on my platter". This very statement is wrong. Your belt is rubbing on the metal plinth. 

It's important to get our/this portion correct. Going forward, you need to be able to distinguish between your platter and your plinth.

Your dealer is correct. It's a finessed combination of pulley angle and pulley distance. Did your tt come with Townshends manual? You may be able to download one or ask your dealer for help getting one or look on www.vinylengine.com 

@sprocket75,

Both the 3mm & 5mm mats will require VTA adjustment and attention to the arm trough height like I mentioned above.

@sprocket75,  

The other issue you’ll encounter is the height of the damping trough. It will need to be raised some. My FFM is 5mm. I found a suitable spacer to go at the troughs’ pivot point. I found it easier to take the locking mechanism out of play as well. If you use a clamp you’ll just be re-connecting the lp to the bearing. YMMV.

Safe? Well as long as you don’t hit the record, all will be well.

With the mat in play, no part of the music suffered. I noticed the most how much cleaner/clearer/more musical the bass was. The bass is already a strong suit. A while back I tried my Stillpoints LP1 on top of the mat and that gave the music a greater foundation, increased solidity.

I’ve used them together for a long while now and you’re right, the spindle sinks below the mat. I’ve been eyeing lps to get them centered with no weight and it works. It’s not ideal I suppose. I have a Delrin rod I’ve meant to thread on one end to use when I go back to that TT .

The positive effect of the spindle not protruding through the mat is you’ve essentially decoupled the lp from the bearing. That’s always a good thing.

This was my first experience with this. My understanding is the ADS will work with any AC synchronous motor. The Merlin power supply takes the AC and turns it to DC then back to AC. I believe this is how it works. So my feeling is my motor is an AC motor, with a different pulley. You could call Max and ask him in person?

Above...The better way of describing what I’m hearing in the lower bass is more precise/musical than before. Much better at presenting the delicacies of minute bass notes. Probably a lower noise floor contributes.

I’m having some great listening lately. I’d like to explain why?

I have the Merlin power supply.

I’ve thought for a long time about putting in my VPI ADS ahead of the Merlin for a while. Why? I’m not sure, but I’ve not been happy with the speed stability.

I’ve been enjoying some Sade tonight...
Diamond Life...OP
Lovers Rock... MOV
Promise ... OP/gold stamped promo

Since inserting the ADS, I’ve noticed a more airy presentation. Seems like the notes are hanging onto the electronics even less now. After an hour of "on time", ( the ADS was a brand new unit) the bass seems slightly less bloated. (Not that it was bloated before)

The sonic differences in these three lps are still there but the things I disliked the most about all three have been minimalized. There is an overall smoothness that makes me want to use the word (analog). A warmth that just draws me in.

I had wondered if these components are compatible. They are running very cool, if that is any indication?

Thoughts?

It's been quite a while. I've been thinking about my current set-up and my ongoing TT project. One of the big issues that TT manufacturers have trouble dealing with is decoupling the lp from the bearing. How does one remove the resonance of the bearing from the lp? I think I've done it by accident on my Rock 7.

As owners know, the way the platter is made on this table is unique in how it accepts the clamp that Townshend makes. I use two mats. One a Funk Firm 5mm Achromat w/ my 1mm flexible vinyl mat. I think I wrote about it earlier. These mats bring the lp above the top of the female receptacle of the spindle acceptable Townshend clamp. 

When I put on a lp, I eye it for on-center play. So, essentially, I'm decoupling the lp from the bearing. Right? I believe that the positive effects of the mats are producing great sound in conjunction with this bearing/lp decoupling.

lohanimal,

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I haven't asked or looked to see what brand of motor I have. I did notice the vibration it made. This may be partly  due to the way it mates to it's (level adjustable) housing. I did notice when I installed the Mark Baker belt this vibration lessened and the musical presentation was noticeably quieter.

I too was a little concerned with the speed being slightly fast and the Merlin not having a pitch control. For now, it just sounds so great that I really don't think about it.

robes,

I meant to say above that the DIN plug is on the motor side.

Hi Robes,

I purchased my  Rock 7 as a package deal that included the DC motor/power supply. Mine is a later version that has a different bearing design as well. The power cord on my TT has a DIN plug on the power supply end so one can't go buy a replacement off the shelf. The motor on mine has a conical pulley and uses a flat belt. So the TT in the review you mentioned is the early Rock 7 and has none of Max's later thoughts/upgrades. The upgrades I've made to my Rock 7 are the Mark Baker belt and the two mats. Total cost under $150.00. Total % of increased enjoyment is off the charts!

My mentioning all of the clamps/weights I've used were in conjunction with my two mats. These mats alone or together bring the TT's performance up substantially. (I've never used or tried a periphery ring weight).

The last time I had my Classic 3 Sig SE in my system using my 1mm mat, it was an ear opener. The sound became more naturally expressed with much more musical bass, allowing me to hear/follow more low end info with greater clarity and expression. When I added the SS weight with the mat, the sound became more strident, less natural. This same difference was experienced with any of my other weights/clamps to certain degrees.

If you haven't already, you should read the Stereophile review of the Rock7/Funk Firm FXR.

I'd like to hear from you when you find out if the trough assembly is available and at what cost. I sincerely doubt if Max would be willing to work out a mounting system for another TT.

bdp24,

Your choice of tonearm for your VPI is interesting. I've owned a VPI HW-19 MkIV/Et 2.5 for over 2 decades.

After changing to my current tts, I now realize my past history was, while interesting, a venture in "not really moving forward in any meaningful way". I now understand the limitations of an air bearing tonearm on a sprung suspension TT. The ET has limitations as well, despite of other postings.

The Trans-Fi is a different animal. The ET is a tale of "the tail wagging the dog". I now realize this.

My history with the ET is, clean/stable air is of most importance. This is expensive! How does the Trans-Fi differ in this area?

FWIW, here are my findings with two different mats:

I came across a material, solid vinyl, no backing, flexible, that is 1mm thick. It has one side smooth and one side with hundreds of slightly raised, symmetrical "bumps". I use it with the smooth side facing the platter.

I've trimmed it so there is a 1&1/4" hole in the center and the outer edge is around 11& 1/2". This allows for the fact that most lps are thicker around the spindle area and it allows the mat to sit just inside of the raised outer edge of most vinyl records.

Positives:
(1) It is only 1 mm thick
(2) It is flexible so it can slightly conform to any irregularities
(3) It extends the Rock 7's attributes further

Negatives:
(1) It does have some static electricity issues that I negate with my Mapleshade gun on each side. (I believe this product is no longer offered?)

I first used it on my VPI Classic 3 Sig SE with surprising positive effect! I had since pulled that TT out of my system.

I hesitated to try it on the Rock 7 because I thought it probably would not have a positive effect since this TT's platter is suppose to mimic that of a vinyl record. I could not have been more wrong!

I have since purchased a Funk Firm Achromat (5mm version). This mat seems immune to static. I've tried both mats separate and together. My findings on the Rock 7 are, separately the thin mat sounds great and is a welcome addition to the Rock 7. The Achromat too, is another welcome addition. Then I tried them together. The thin mat under the Achromat,... Cha-ching! Absolutely wonderful! Even with the benefits of the trough on the Rock 7, the interface of the stylus to the record still benefits from this additional isolation.

In percentage terms, on their own, I'd give my thin mat a rating of 85% of the Achromat. Together, they work extremely well.

I'm close to finalizing my new wall mount system that will allow me to use both TTs. This will be beneficial for me to readily evaluate system changes.

Happy Listening!

bdp24, The reason I reached out was to see if you would be willing to try out my platter mat material. I think you'd approve. When you mentioned the VPI, it got me in seller mode. If you're interested, you can PM me.

bdp24, FWIW, I have some parts left off of my VPI HW-19 you may find helpful. I have a Mk IV plinth @ an original VPI (tall) dustcover. Maybe more stuff???

I have my highly modified base that includes Symposium Rollerblocks that greatly increased this TT's performance. Lots of stuff?

@bdp24, Did you ever buy the Mark Baker belt for your table? I've found a material that I'm using as a (mat) that surprisingly, works very well on my Rock 7 @ my VPI.

of coarse this assumes that the tt feet are tightened up as far as can go to the plinth.

Happy listening

Setting up your Rock 7: (the relationship of motor to platter, IE: a starting point.

I write this based upon my experiences so far...

What I find, sounds the best, based upon my trying different motor heights vs, platter...

You may be wondering, WTF?  Well, this does make a big difference my friends.

I've tried several motor heights vs it's relationship to the platter. In every mode, there was A difference. (You may prefer one to another). I'm just reporting that a difference is to be had via these (two relationships).

For those of you who may want to ascribe to my personal best..here you go..

Once you've aligned the motor housing with the platter and the belt is riding in the center of the sub-platter, and the belt on the pulley seems to be slightly above the conical part of the pulley.. you've come (very far).

Now on to the best sounding setting:  Assuming you have a visual "sight line" in relationship to the underside of the platter to the top of the pulley...the top of the pulley should be ALMOST level with the underside of the platter. Maybe VERY slightly above or VERY slightly below.

If you've achieved this, you're going to hear THE best sound. Simple, right?

In theory yes, in practice, it takes a little more involvement. Some may think, that I'm not serious,...I ask those, this.... "You want me on that wall... you need me on that wall"..

Happy listening

BTW and FWIW, I'm finding myself listening with my latest metal clamp (and my older expandable metal washer) I bought a few weeks ago for 97% of recordings. The clamp has Rock 7 printed on it.

I have been looking forward to this weekend for more great sounding tunes. I decided to try the recommended talc on the belt. I tried it this way on both sides of the belt and I was no longer connected to the music like I was last week.

I wiped off the talc and put on the same lp I had been listening to previously. There it is, I got it back... my connection to the music. The bass tightened up, the (energy) returned, my emotional connection to the music is back.

This, to me, is a substantial difference. So be forewarned.

Happy Listening.

kps25sc,

Your comments are really appreciated! I'd love to hear your impressions when you've heard the new belt.

Happy Listening.

bdp24,

Yes it has a sub-platter. On OL's website, I don't recall a pre-made belt for your specific table but they will make one if it needs a different size. They give you two ways of measuring for a custom belt.

By the way...this belt has a two year warranty. IME, unheard of.

I think they are safe.

I have received my Origin Live belt and it's been in use for a few hours. I've read on this site about others' positive experiences with this belt. So, I expected to hear something good. What I did not expect was to be blown away by all of the ways this belt has changed the musical presentation and my enjoyment from listening now.

The paper that comes with the belt says to let it run in for an hour before hearing it in it's best light, (paraphrasing). I did that. What I noticed immediately without listening was how quiet it was. Upon touching the motor while running, there is noticeable less vibration. Now for the big test. (It seems that somehow the belt absorbs the motor vibrations without transferring them to the sub-platter).

My listening experience is now transformed. I realize that is a big word but it best describes the difference I'm hearing. The noise floor has been lowered dramatically. This allows for hearing nuances that I did not notice before or the ones I barely noticed before, being more easily heard now. The feeling of less electronics in the way of the music is there. I feel like I'm in the studio while listening to studio recordings. The stage seems to have been pushed back or maybe I should say in no way "in your face". (I listen in the near field in my small room.) The bass is much more musical and presented with greater authority and the entire low bass spectrum is of much more importance and meaningful than before.

The belt is shorter that the stock belt. This seems to have logical positive implications as well.

Did I say quiet? Yes the entire listening experience has a quieter background. I'd say in terms of a percentage of increased listening satisfaction, I'd give it around 30%+. This has to be one of THE best bang for the buck upgrades for a tt owner.

Thank you Origin Live!

alonski,

I finally received a new belt from Townshend. I ordered one from Origin Live as well the other day. Looking forward to comparing.

alonski,

I'm totally misunderstood. I knew and accepted your post, I just (tried) to inject some levity.

Sometimes I just wish I could be understood. (A ha-ha and a damn right. all at once.) I'm laughing now.

(My dust cover was included in the package deal).

Thank you for responding. I most likely will call on you in the future.

Happy Listening!

...regarding the less than stellar machining of the platter... since the sub-platter is machined to a higher tolerance and the belt rides on this, the main record platter doesn't have as much of a significance in terms of speed stability.

alonski,

Well, as you read, I have a problem. That is my passion for music reproduced well in my home. I know my style may turn some off but I thought it may be interesting to post my (live) experience. I hope some can appreciate it.

Regarding the Origin Live belt... does your TA motor use a flat belt like my motor w/ Merlin power supply?

The Phoenix Tachometer.....would it be in any way superior to my Sutherland Timeline just to "check on speed stability"?

My tt package included a Gingko cover, it's nice but not necessary. I would not have spent $400 on it myself.

This is my initial response, I will re-read your post again. Thank you for responding.

An example of a lp I listened to this morning:

Elliot Smith "S/T"  This is a digital recording. Without any clamp it sounded too forward and/or bright in the upper frequencies. I listened again with the metal clamp. All of the dynamic extension is still there but still a little too forward/bright again. The acrylic clamp sounded , in this particular case, more analog in nature although it dampened the ultimate dynamic extension. The acrylic in this case is my favorite.

The perfect solution would be to have had this recording in all analog if it would had been possible. So we cope and deal with what we're given.

Having said all of this, for me, it gives me some flexibility for recordings that may trend too bright or too dark.

I found the same with my VPI table. I own the (2) VPI SS center weights, (one I applied a 1/16" carbon fiber circle to it’s bottom side with a center hole cutout of 1&1/4", this is a benefit in another way. Some lps are thicker in the center. This makes the stock VPI weight not sit "flat" on a record. A serious flaw in it’s design IMO.) a BDR two piece clamp and a Stillpoint LPI. I found here that I most often prefer the Stillpoints but have noticed benefits with the other two clamps on various recordings.

Interested in others’ findings.

Various clamps:

My table came with the acrylic clamp and the expandable metal washer, if it can be called that?.

After speaking with Max earlier, I wanted to try his latest metal clamp. ( I like to try things for my own knowledge, then, if I choose to post, it is from my own experience.)  It has a damping material on it's underside and comes with (4) different thickness of metal washers.

For my testing, I used the original, expandable metal "washer".

I thought initially, that I liked listening without the original clamp. I heard a dampening of dynamics, less air/bloom with the acrylic clamp.

The metal clamp is 180 degrees. It offers a vivid listening experience but I still find it somewhat uninvolving as opposed to no clamp at all.

I still find that no clamp gives me a more involving, a more natural, emotional connection to the music. The lower bass is more fleshed out.

Any of you tried them? Love to hear your experiences.

bdp24,

Interesting you mentioned having to "upgrade" your arm mounting plate. Although mine is more substantial than your stock one is, I have envisioned making one out of carbon fiber.

I met with Kevin Carter yesterday. Luckily, I live around 1 hour away. He doesn't have the boards right now for the Maxxed-Out" and doesn't know when they'll be available. We did however, listen to his "Trio" in the most  basic version through a Nottingham (forgot which one) TT, with the (N) 12 arm, Benz LP cart. According to him, his latest Trio has 4x less output impedence than the Maxxed-Out!

We listened with his TT power supply that has a level adjustment. I was very impressed with this piece.

I want a phono w/ volume. His wasn't set up this way. He offered to see if he can modify his own to let me borrow and try out. He doesn't have stock pieces waiting for orders. He is an independent, highly educated, music lover that has been fortunate enough that he can live his dream. He could not have been more gracious, more easy going person and a joy to be with.

We got 5" of snow last night. Great listening weather if the power stays on.

bdp24,

Thanks for the motivation. I think I'm going to focus on a new phono stage right now.

In the short time I've owned this amazing tt, I noticed the set screws that level my motor have quite a bit of play. This is a major source of vibration.

My current tt platform is a Symposium Ultra. When I would set the Merlin to 45rpm, I'd get an audible noise.

My solution is to wrap Teflon tape around them. I start at the bottom in the direction that will tighten the tape as the screws are turned and use no more than 2 & 1/2 rotations as I gradually rise up the screw, stopping at half way up.

I'm surprised that this kind of issue is had for Townshend owners, luckily, there is a easy, LOW cost solution.

Cheers.