Clavil my friend, the sound of the amp was very, very good, IMHO. This was early in the show and the speakers were YG and the player was a rediculously over priced Weiss ($30,000 and using a $20 Phillips transport), but, even with this marginal set up, I think that the FM is top echelon and shown through.
We were told a price in US$. I can't imagine paying that much for an amp, so, after I learned the price, I lost interest. Despite that, I heard enough to say that anyone wanting to spend that kind of money on an amp should consider it, along with the Rowland 312 and Boulder 2060. It was clearly handling the big YGs easily. The harmonic richness was hard to judge because of the usual show issues, like speakers, front end and room, but I could hear good things shining through.
For that kind of money you'd expect a in-system audition at your house, after they check your bank account. ;-)
Dave |
Guido and Dcstep,
the big stereo amp from FM Acoustics is the 1811 it costs 133'500 swiss francs
the monos are the 115, a pair costs 85'000 swiss francs
all FM Acoustics products are sold in swiss francs
the big preamp is the 268 which costs 110'000 sf
prices are stratospheric ... how is the sound?
Best regards |
Guido, I think that the FM was a huge stereo amp. |
If I recall correctly, FM Acoustics was showcasings its big monoblock amps costing $128,000. Guido |
Which makes me think of the FM Acoustic, another amplifier that I liked a lot, but the six-figure price was offputting and it was not clearly superior to the trio that I mentioned before. could you tell which FM amp & preamp you have heard and how it was? thanks |
Hi Dave,
I had a great time and was glad I met you guys.
The guys at Soundings were very gracious hosts. In fact I have never been treated better at any other stereo store. I did not mean to imply that they would not have let us try that combo. It would have been a big pain to switch them out and that is why I did not ask them to do it. Especially when they were getting ready for the after show party the next day. I think I spent about 5 hours there that day. That is the longest I have ever spent in a store auditioning a stereo. Of course if Guido had not been there to talk to I probably would have got bored and left much sooner. ;-)
Thanks for the company and I hope we can do it again next year.
Cheers,
Sean |
Sean,
I was pleased that Soundings was agreeable to switching around the amps and even putting the Continuum 500 in place of the Boulder 2060 and the 312. I'm glad we went on Thursday before the crowds came so that our request was reasonable.
I'll get back over there soon and compare the Continuum 500 to the Criterion/312 combo. That will be interesting.
BTW, it was nice meeting you and sharing a great Indian dinner with you and other friends, new and old.
Dave |
I was at Soundings with Guido and Dave and agree that the 312 was a much better match for the VA Die Muzick than the Boulder 2060 was. I also listened to the Criterion on the smaller VA Mahlers with the 312. I was impressed with this set up. It was transparent and musical. It also had good tonal balance. The presentation was a bit smaller than the Die Muzick though. It was a shame we could not swap the Rowland and Boulder preamps to compare them.
Sean |
I will say, I agree with Guido with preferring the VA/Rowland/Boulder set up, BUT the GamuT was in a HUGE room and we were sitting much further away from it than the set ups at Soundings. Perhaps that distance impacted our ability to hear the inner detail of the large GamuT tower speakers.
I'm very comfortable in saying that Rowland, GamuT and Boulder are amongst the top performers in this rather serious price range. Which makes me think of the FM Acoustic, another amplifier that I liked a lot, but the six-figure price was offputting and it was not clearly superior to the trio that I mentioned before.
Sorry to take the thread away from the Criterion, but comparsions, even when VERY informal can be useful.
Dave |
I must echo Dave's assessment of the GamuT room, using their big monoblock amps. Performance of the Bach Toccata Adagio and Fugue in C minor on the organ was stunning and very emotionally involving. Yet it seemed to me that a system consisting of Boulder CDp, Boulder 2010 pre, Rowland 312 amp, and Vienna Die Muzick speakers that we listened to at Soundings Hifi just across from the Marriott hotel may have exceeded the Gamut system in harmonic resolution and low level detail. The 2 systems were definitely comparable in staging, imaging, extension, and superior abscence of any disturbing artifacts. . . the kind of systems that you just would like never to walk away from.
Dave and I were able to listen/contrast the Rowland 312 and the Boulder 2060 stereo amps on the same system at Soundings. . . Boulder CDp, Boulder 2010 pre, Vienna Die Muzick speakers. Both excellent amps. everyone present in the room appeared to favor 312 over Boulder 2060 for authority, staging, harmonic exposure, low level detail.
Unfortunately we were not able to compare directly Boulder 2010 and Criterion in the same system, hence I won't guess about my pref between these 2 devices. |
Speaking of Gamut, they had one of the very best rooms at RMAF. We couldn't compare the Gamut pre and the JRDG in the same system, but they were both clearly at the top of the heap.
Dave |
Brazcole,
could you tell us was is better with your Gamut D200 than with the 312?
muito brigado |
Thank you Vito, Criterion's home theater bypass is very flexible. Any/some/all of the Criterion's balanced or unbalanced inputs can be configured/assigned to home theater bypass. This means that you could have up to 6 inputs configured as theatre bypass if you really wanted.
Note that by default, as all inputs are transformer coupled, all inputs RCA/XLR have identical gain structure. If you want to adjust input gain for any/some/all of the inputs, you can assign a gain offset +/- 10dB in 0.5dB increments to any of the inputs.
All main outputs (2XLR, 2RCA) are also transformer coupled. . . This mean that by default they would present an identical volume gain to a pair of amplifiers that you may be using in a biamped configuration. . . But for greater flexibility in biamped configurations, RCA output 2 can also be configured with an output gain offset (+/- 10dB with 0.5dB granularity).
What's even more interesting, is that the record outs are controlled by a completely separate preamplification circuit. . . this means that you could even assign a Criterion input to drive an amp(s) in a separate room, which would enjoy a completely different musical program with a completely different volume.
On your specific question of compatibility with ML amp. . . Criterion's output impedance is only 60Ohms in both balanced and unbalanced mode. This means that Criterion is compatible with all but the most peculiar amps on the market. Unless your amp has an input impedance of less than 1200 Ohms, you will have no problems.
Saluti,
Guido |
Guido,
I've enjoyed following this thread. Thanks for your
insights and thoughtful review. I've been enjoying my
ARC Ref 3 preamp for a few years. My dealer has offered to
make arrangements for a home audition of the new ARC Ref 5. I would also love to listen to the Criterion. Does the Criterion have a home theater by-pass feature? Any thoughts as to the synergy with Levinson 33H monoblocks?
Thanks.
Vito |
After I test the Krell 222 and the Krell 202, I decide to test my old GamuT D200. The COMBINATION with the CRITERION was huge, so I put my Model 312 to sell.
My set up with Criterion and GamuT D200 is perfect.
Thank you all for everything. Good bye. |
I just finish the test with the Krell 222 and the 202 as well. I could say the Criterion's sound stage is UNBEATABLE.
Now I have total confidance in this wonderfull device.
The best preamplifier I have heard. |
I agree. . . my only concern is also severing the Criterion's shortest path to ground when removing the PC. G. |
It should make a difference if you do. Unplugging the power cord from the unit (as opposed to from the electrical outlet) should reduce the amount of RF in the system (though there will still be leakage from your cd player). |
During yesterday's session Criterion was on batteries, but was not unplugged from AC. I have not yet run Criterion unplugged from AC. G. |
During listening sessions, is the AC unplugged from the preamp? |
All, time for some updated impressions.
I have now been running Criterion almost 24/7 since mid July. . . it has either being playing from CDs on XLR input 1, or from my old tuner from XLR input 2. During night time, I usually mistune between FM stations and feed Criterion a diet of pure unadulterated quasi-inter-station white noise hash. I estimate that Criterion must have by now passed 2,000 hours of activity on the combined inputs.
Today I loaded a very old CD. . . Jackie Dupre on the Dvorak Cello concerto with her husband Daniel Barenboim at the baton. I always considered this recording more documentary in nature than anything else. While the performance is truly remarkable, the recording is of dubious quality also for vintage standards, with somewhat hazy sound, flat staging and hashi fortissimos. It was always a bit difficult to enjoy this recording. . . Dupre tended to be buried in the lumpy background
I honestly did not know that this CD even knew
what 'soundstage' and 'imaging' even meant. . . my opinion was always that the recording engineer should have been taken to the Lublianka for interrogation as a possible anti-musical plant. . . .
Well. . . today my jaw dropped. . . the words mesmeric, awesome, eerie, and stunningly emotionally involving come to mind.
The soundstage was there. . . and what a stage. . . with Dupre at the front center, more or less lined up with the front of the speakers. The orchestra sorrounds her at a realistic distance, consistent with true placement of instruments in the orchestra. Dupree is passionate beyond belief. . . her Stradivari cello is passionate and rippling with harmonics. . . in double stops I can follow the interplay of the twin melodies with incredible ease. . . there are things that I hear that Dupre intended me to hear, like those amazing harmonics, riveting macro dynamics, microdynamics that have an incredible intimacy. . . there are things that perhaps she did not want me to hear. . . like the swish of her sleeves and the creeking of her stool. and an occasional intake of breath.
The Orchestra sounds majestic, intense, and passionate. . . the emotional rapport and kinship between Dupre and Barenboim is pretty evident in the incredible dynamic synergy between the cello and the orchestra. I was specifically looking for the virtual placement of the triangle. . . would it be highlighted towards the front, or would it have a realistic placement. . . when it arrived it was clear as a bell, but from a distance, from the right and towards the back of the hall, in the spot it would be in a live concert. . . who said that JRDG gear can't image worth a darn (grins!). The fff ends of movements 1 and 3 had a special surprise. . . not only I could hear the great hall through the decaying sound, but the shells of the kettle-drums and perhaps some unused large cymbals were clearly ringing from somewhere close to the triangle player.
It is interesting that with Criterion, 'silent background' does not mean lack of sound. . . Rather, it means complete abscence of that glare and random hash that hides the lowest level of information from recording venues that are by their nature always filled with those tiny mechanical vibrations, that let us perceive their palpable existance, size, and often shape with our eyes closed. Thus, somewhat paradoxically, I suggest that Criterion's profound 'black background' silence actually illuminates musical reality.
During fff/tutti, there is obviously a little distortion (the sound engineer should still be punished, or at least be imparted musical reeducation in a gulag for a duration commensurable with his grievous crime against the Muses), but distortion is much less than I was used to, and the stage never collapses under macro-dynamic stress, which is totally unexpected in this recording.
Bottom line, this creature is amazing. . . and if you think you already love criterion after you used it for a couple hundred hours. . . I can assure you that you have not heard anything yet. I have now reasons to believe that Criterion may continue to mature and blossom well beyond the 1,500 hours mark.
I usually try to be dispassionate about my sonic findings, but what I heard today simply took my breath away. I was supposed to work on some web content creation today instead of wasting time listening to Dupre. . . well I obviously couldn't. . . so I didn't. . . and no apologies either! . .
Saluti,
G. |
Thanks, Clavil / Claude,
I already bought the Puccini & Clock.
Man, no words...No words do decribe. Uau!!
I don't need Scarlatti, Pagannini... or... anything else.
I'll run the test with Krell 222 next Friday.
Keep all post |
Claude, it's quite possible that the Esoteric sound may simply be not what you are after. DCS seems to me sweeter sounding than Esoteric. G. |
Hi Guido,
I met yesterday my friend who has had the Esoteric Combo 03, he told me it was not new and had be runing for a while.
Regards |
Clavil and Brazcole, all of these seem to be worthy comparison projects. . . Let us know your impressions if you have the opportunity of conducting some of them. G. |
Hi Guido,
I lovedyour response ;-)
sic"What is even more interesting, is that rather than given you a sense that you are 'seeing deeper into the soundstage', it is more like Criterion plops a solid and vast 3-dymensional soundstage into the listening area"
I made one time this experience: with the pream Viola Cadenza ... just amazing
It would be great to compare the criterion to this one and also to FM acoustics preamps |
"you seem happy and convinced but not so crazily enthousiastic about the change from Capri to Criterion ... am I right ?"
Hi Claude. . .the answer is an emphatic NO, that is not correct. I am extremely enthusiastic about the differences between Criterion and Capri. . . but I am always shy of using any overwhelming superlatives in writing any of my assessments. Fact is that IMO Criterion exceeds the performance of Capri in approx 12 hours from cold out of the box. . . then it is essentially a rising curve, except for a period of instability between 125 and 175 hours of break in. In the end, Criterion -- as a JRDG product -- displays some kinship with Capri in most parameters, but it is a different animal all together. Authority, macro/micro dynamics, harmonic exposure, top to bottom extension, image resolution, and ability to deliver high SPLs without batting an eye or showing intermodulating fatigue are in a different league. What is even more interesting, is that rather than given you a sense that you are 'seeing deeper into the soundstage', it is more like Criterion plops a solid and vast 3-dymensional soundstage into the listening area. The difference is what I would call transcendent.
On the other hand, it is only audio equipment we are talking about. . . any rumours that Criterion has improved my love life are somewhat exagerated. On the other hand, now that I think of it. . . hmmm (grins!)
Concerning DCS, my impression of DCS is that its house sound is always extremely pleasing, sometimes at the detriment of what to me makes music emotional: the interplay of differentially decaying harmonics, and microdynamics. I'll listen to DCS again at RMAF. . . who knows. . . I might change my mind.
Guido |
Humm... interesting... the Clavi's observation about Guido's change from Capri to Criterion, because when I was googling some information about the 2 boxes Krell 202 preamplifier, I found something like the project with 2 boxes itsn' so good because the conection cord makes the signal weaker.
Tomorrow I'll ask the Krell rep to bring me the 1 box Krell 222 and not the Krell 202 any more.
Let's see.
And I'd like to compare the Criterion with the Ayre again, because now I'm more realist, without passion. I think the Ayre deserve another chance because some reviewer called this device the 8º wonder of the world.
With this kind of toughts the Puccini with 1 box (or 2 with the little clock) should be perfect. |
Guido,
please the tell us then what perception you had from dCS.
One more question to the Criterion: you seem happy and convinced but not so crazily enthousiastic about the change from Capri to Criterion ... am I right ?
Here in Europe the price difference beetween both is from one to seven !! ... it's quite a huge step.
PS to my former post: Prof. Johnson has developped the Spectral latest CD player, it should be excellent. |
Claude, DCS does make splendid stuff, while up to now I have tended to prefer the TEAC Esoteric sound, I freely admit that DCS is excellentAnd who knows. . . my preference may change in the future. . I'll give a careful listen at DCS at RMAF in October. Guido |
Sorry for the mistakes... I am writing from an iphone ... Not so easy ... It seems that a new combi from accuphase is also coming out ... Could be interesting ... And Zanden
regards |
Hi Guido, i can't answer your question because i don't know. I was very surprised to hear the system of my friend (sonus faberNom* amati palladio, jadis jp 80, manley mono 500 ... All tube) so harsh and dry (he got it from a dealer to try inhis sytem, finally he didn't bought it). So maybe it was the point you mentioned, but other way are the dealer so s...? I can tell you that the 2nd time i have spent a couple of hours with the Scarlatti it was fresh unpacked from the box. Another friend bought it. On maggie 20 it was magic! I personnally have puccini & clock although i would prefer to have the scarlatti i am very happy with it. I am always looking for high resolution & definition but at the same time musicality and i believe from what i have heard dCS is the best compromise i have heard until now. i have highest respect for Prof Johnson, so that maybe one should try to hear latest spectral cd player.
Kind regards. |
Hi Claude, do you happen to know if the Esoteric combo was fully broken in? It takes about 1200 hours for Esoteric gear to sound at its best. . . and when it is not broken in, Esoteric products sound. . . extremely harsh, digital, unemotional, and utterly unpleasant.
On the other hand, Esoteric is extremely revealing and intense, while DCS may sound sweeter. . . it's a matter of personal preference I suppose. G. |
Thank you guys, and in special for Clavil for the words about dCS products. So I'll get the Puccini and the Puccini clock for shure. Thanks.
I'm gonna to ask the Krell rep (for luck, is the same for dCS products) when he brings me the Puccini after I've buy it to make a demonstration with the 202 preamplifier. Anyway I don't known if he has one for that.
I'll tell you all how the 202 sounds.
|
I mean of course the combi 03 from Esoteric ... sorry |
Hello everybody, i haven't neither heard the Esoteric 03 side by side with the Puccini but only in the system of a friend which i know quite well. My impression was it's very nicely built, but it' s very analitical without this incredible mellow touch of latest dCS products. dCS has this incredible capacity to get everything out of a cd and never sound hard, harsh or digital. Sorry for the diferent opinion. This being said if you have the € go directly for the scarlatti which is absolutely stunning! I have heard it twice a couple of hours and i was just amazed! Emm lab, wadia (by the way both incredibly slow to start when you get a cd in), esoteric, krell, arc dont arrive in my opinion at this level. Never heard paganini.
Saludos |
Thank you so much Brazcole, the reaction of the gentleman in question is sadly typical of some people who have not even listened to a device: dismiss it outright as 'obviously' inferior!
On the subject of CD players, my personal favorite is the Esoteric P-03/D-03/G-0S combination. I have listened to Paganini and Puccini, but I thought they may not have been as emotional as the Esoteric combo. On the other hand, as I have not listened to them side by side with the Esoteric, my impressions are not terribly well informed. . . . and are 'subject to change without notice.'
Guido |
Braz, the Pagannini is much, much better if you can afford it. If not, the Puchinni is acceptable. But....Many other units to look at at this price point! Even the Wadia 781 is compareable to the Pucuinni. With the sort of resolution you now have with the Criterion, you should be looking at better CD play back systems than the Puchinni. Perhaps the Esoteric P03/D03 or Wadia 922 Decoding system and the new Teac sourced clamping transport. I hear from a good friend that this combinataion is astonishingly good! Aloha, David. PS, The Criterion is at about 275 hrs now on input #1 and 100hrs on #2. It has opened sufficiently on #2, but still a bit grainy and slightly shy of full dynamics. It's hard to describe, but it is posiible that the dynamics are in fact fully developed now on #2 input, but the rsloution around the images that have the greatest impact still do not have the deliniation of the more fully broken in input of #1. I have probably another 2 weeks of break in on input #1 before I can give a full opinion. The other inputs will just need to wait until I can give them the signal they need over time to run in their pathways! |
This gentleman knowns nothing about Criterion. After the Coherence, JRDG had a lack of products here. The Ice Power technologie wasn't well accepeted and, because of this, Capri preamplifier wasn't sold, increasing this lack, and there were rumors that JRDG was sold for the chineses.
As I said in another post, I'm the first, and still the only one, to buy the 312 and later the Criterion.
With this review, in Audio & Vídeo magazine, Som Maior, the JRDG dealer in Brasil, wants rich the market again, because years ago Jeff Rowland had huge succes over here.
As we are third world, only half dozen of brands have reps in Brasil, and Krell is one of them and very strong.
This guy has the 202 preamplifier, and for him is impossible exist a better device. And after the Fernando Andretti review about Criterion he said his opinion.
The personal Andretti's set up is the Accuphase C-2410 pre, 2 Krell Evo 600 and DCS Puccinni CD Player with separeted clock (I'm going to buy the Puccinni for me). |
"old Brazcole and I was just about startin' to get lonesome 'round here. . . wasn't we Braz? (grins!)"
Brazcole, that was an attempt to write something in Texas slang/dialect. . . It means kind of:
Brazcole and I were starting to feel lonely. . . because we were the only 2 real users of Criterion on this thread.
Not at all familiar with Krell 202 so I can't comment on it. Is the gentleman in the Brazilian forum intimately familiar with Criterion?
Guido |
Guidocorona, I'm happy the mail delivery well the magazine. And my little English didn't understand what you wrote below:
old Brazcole and I was just about startin' to get lonesome 'round here. . . wasn't we Braz? (grins!)
Anyway, go for it with the translation for the fellows Audiogoners.
All, a guy in the Brasilian high-end forum said the Krell 202 is better than Criterion. Anyone could say something about the Krell 202?
Guido, take care. |
David, if my understanding is correct that each input may have its own equalization/isolation transformer, your observation that every input needs to be broken in separately would not be surprising. That is why I ended up converting the unbalanced output of my old tuner to XLR balanced via an external transformer-based RCA/XLR adapter, and fed it into input 1 of Criterion for a few weeks 24/7, so I could spare my trusty X-01 from serving as lowly break-in donkey. |
I'm not going to repeat Guido's comments on the entire break in process, except to say I have found the same things changing at the same time he did. If anyone needs further clarification on it, please ask. I will say that I was suprised at the need to run signal into each input to achieve full break in for that particular input #. After one input was run in, switching to say input #2, caused an implosion in the soundstage and lack of detail & dynamics etc... In other words, each numbered input must be run in with signal for at least 250 hrs to "open" it up. Standby for thoughts after full break in. |
Good stuff David. . . keep us posted on your Criterion. . . old Brazcole and I was just about startin' to get lonesome 'round here. . . wasn't we Braz? (grins!) G. |
Thanks to Brazcole, I have just received today a copy of Audio&Video magazine from Brazil featuring a professional review of Criterion by Mr. Andrette. I'll scan the article and will attempt to submit a Google translation. If the translation results are not totally outlandish, I will post salient extracts to the thread in a few days. |
I have a new Criterion and will report on my thoughts after a few hours of break in. Obviously, it's drop dead gorgeous and has incredibly smart features. I'll get to some of these later. First, a little taste. It's already better at soundstaging placement cold out of the box than my Capri. |
All, Criterion will be featured in Soundings Hifi's own showrooms in Denver during a series of open-houses during the RMAF show. The demo system will be identical to my own except for CD player, and will likely consist of the following components:
Primare CD31 player.
Jeff Rowland Criterion preamplifier.
Jeff Rowland 312 stereo amplifier.
Vienna Mahler V1.5 speakers.
Wiring/cabling is likely to be my own set of Furutech Evolution II ICs, PCs, and speaker wires. . . or the new Analysis Plus Big Oval Silver.
Tentative schedule as follows:
Friday October 2nd from 6pm to 10pm,
Saturday 3rd from 6pm to 10pm,
Sunday 4th from 5pm to 8pm.
Soundings will also have a booth in the Marriott lobby, but will not have a demo suite in the hotel this year.
The Soundings showroom is located approximately 10 minutes walk from the Marriott hotel, just across the parking lot. For more info, Soundings can be reached at:
8101 E. Bellview Avenue,
Denver, Colorado
80237
Phone: 303.759.5505
Fax: 303.759.4273
Email: sales@soundingshifi
Driving directions and map at:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=8101+E+Belleview+Ave,+Denver,+Denver,+Colorado+80237,+United+States&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=35.768112,76.992187&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=0,39.625328,-104.894038&ll=39.626268,-104.894028&spn=0.008495,0.018797&z=16&iwloc=addr
Hope to see you guys in Denver!
Regards,
G. |
All, if I manage to get a rough Google translation of the article, I'll post it here. |
Fabulous idea Brazcole! I will send you a personal message right away with my mailing address. You should find it in your eMail inbox shortly.
Grazie mille! and. . . Obrigadissimo!
Guido |
I bought the Áudio & Vídeo magazine on a street store. Clubedoaudio.com is the electronic adress for the electronic edition for the magazine above. And I don't subscribe the on-line magazine.
But I have a solution, that means... I can send to you by mail the edition with the Criterion review if you give your adress.
Easy. |
