Guido, I think that the FM was a huge stereo amp. |
We're probably a few weeks away from me lugging the MPS-5 over there, but I'll keep you guys in mind and try to do it.
Dave |
Psag, A'gon isn't all that bad a resouce. Just like with the printed mags and online mags, you have to learn to read the reviewers. Generally I don't think that advertising "buys" good reviews, but the advertisers probably do tend to get reviewed more often.
Anyone in business knows those that smooze and those that don't. Jeff doesn't. To hear him tell it, he tries to be courteous to all comers at shows, but he's not into buying a potential reviewer a fancy meal or "entertaining" such people. If they want to visit his shop they'll be welcomed and shown all the same stuff he'll show others. He's about running his business conservatively and trying to design the best products that he knows how. I doubt you'll ever see him here or on any forum defending his equipment or touting it. He likes the way his web site looks and that ain't achangin', etc., etc.
That makes it a little harder for us to find him, but you can be pretty comfortable that any fame or notice he receives is well earned. I have nothing at stake and only comment about JRDG because I want others to find out the "secret" that I've found. I paid full retail and could have just as easily spent that $9000+ on some other brand.
Dave |
Yeah, French_fries got it right. SOTA is somewhat like buying a computer or CDP, if you wait until things "settle down" you'll never buy. You just need to pick something near the top of the heap and jump in, then plan to go with it for a few years no matter what comes along.
Dave |
I love your passion Sirspeedy. ;-)
Dave |
I'll be pleasantly surprised if the new Criterion elevates very far beyond the Capri, mainly adding flexibility to the Capri's limited switching possibilities. The ability to use the Capri in DC mode by placing the PC1 power factor correction unit in front of it makes me wonder about the value of a battery power supply. We shall see. There's surely a market for two-box, battery powered high-end units, but I think that Rowland may have made most of the performance available at a much lower price in the Capri and Continuum.
Dave |
Yes Guido, I think that will happen soon. I also very much want to compare a Continuum 500 with a Capri/312/PC1 combination. I really don't feel like lugging both my MPS-5 and C-5 to Austin, but...
Dave |
Well good. I guess it's safe to assume that it'll be at the RMAF since Rowland will be sharing the room with Soundings.
Dave |
Yes, by Friday night I'll probably be head over heels. I look into the Barolo, but if that's not available the Querceto Reserva Classico is amazing. I think we'll need more than one bottle... |
Guido, is it time for me to run over????
Unfortunately this Criterion will be cold out of the box. Maybe by the end of the weekend it'll be getting close to ready.
BTW, we had a first listen to Marantz's S7 reference CD/SACD player last night. Cold, out of the box, it's a contendah...Very nice indeed. |
That should be very nice. I hope that I don't "need" a Criterion... |
It's really too early to evaluate, other than to say it's very promising.
Dave |
Ah Clio09, I see you have the Audiokenesis speakers. I thought that Duke had one of the best sounding rooms at the show. Not only that, Duke is a great gentleman here on A'gon and in person.
I DO think that Atmas colored his system every so slightly. Duke volunteered that he thought that the 60s would have been a better match than the 30s that he was using. Still, it was a very musical system, in my top three of the show, bar none.
BTW, here's my personal top three:
Soundings (Vienna Acoustic/Rowland)
Genesis Speakers
Audiokenesis
I wasn't able to visit every room, so there very well could have been other rooms in this league.
Dave |
Unfortunately there were a number of times I entered the Soundings suite and Rod was not playing "music". Someone brought in the soundtrack to "My Cousin Vinny" which was very impressive with bass dynamics and effects, but not musical at all. When we played real music it was a very musical system. As with most rooms there, the operator needed to avoid overloading the room. I heard Rod overload the room a number of times and the guy next door would often overload his room to the detriment of the Soundings room.
So, it's not ideal. Bring your own CDs that you know and ask for a level adjustment to suit the music. When you do that, it's actually fairly reasonable way to get a quick and relatively accurate take on equipment, IMHO.
Dave |
We stopped by Duke's on Sunday. It was ready for prime time by then.
Dave |
That's where I'll listen Kawika, but I'd rather wait for a few a couple of hundred more hours on it and also hear it in battery powered mode. Hopefully the programming will be complete in a few days. Until the firmware is settled, I think we need to hold off saying much more.
Guido will probably add his perspective tonight. He was deep in thought, pulling on his mustache, as he listened yesterday again.
Dave |
Are you using power factor correction with your Capri? My Continuum 500 is very quiet and so is the Criterion, but the Capri isn't quite in the same league, but very good. I don't know what gives there. My Continuum has PFC. The Criterion will have batteries, but it was very, very quiet on an AC diet.
Guido played around a lot with the Capri and PFC, but ultimately preferred the Capri without PFC fromt he PC-1.
I don't know anything about the Criterion's topography. Maybe Guido will chime in tomorrow.
Dave |
Remember when you compare hiss, you have to do it at the same gain. Some pre-amps don't have as much gain as others, so when you compare their hiss at full volume it may not be apples to apples.
I didn't know if the PFC's conversion to DC might reduce hiss. Apparently not.
Dave |
That "desk chickie" was probably Jeff's wife, OR one of the production assemblers. No one there just answers the phone, so your report is probably accurate.
Chassis lay in wait for the boards and software. I've seen them myself, months ago. The big unknown is software development. Has anyone here ever depended on a software engineer to finish something on time??? Raise your hands... so my prediction is two to six months. Jeff's not really in control regarding this issue.
Dave |
Everyone knew what you're talking about and there's no "front desk chickie" at JRDG is our point in response. |
The Capri is easier to read than the prototype Critereon display, by a long shot. The buttons light, so I don't really see much need for a display if you remember which buttons are which inputs. These are both functionally pretty simple devices, so I wouldn't get too hung up about the display, but that's just me.
Dave |
Those reading Audiofil's post may mistakenly believe that the Jeff Rowland Design Groups are radically designed. In my view their physical appearance is very conservative, giving the feeling of understated quality. The blue lights for the buttons are very small and the display can be muted on devices like the Capri and Continuum. The engineering sample of the Critereon was similarly understated.
Whether the Critereon will ultimately allow users to customize their displays, I have no answer. The USB allowing firmware update would make that a possibility. All I need is Phono, Digital 1 and Digital 2 and maybe Tape in the future, we'll see. Lacking that a simple 1, 2, 3, 4, as on my Continuum 500, will suffice. I really have no trouble remembering what's what and don't let anyone else use my rig without supervision.
BTW, my Playback Designs MPS-5 has a large, red LED display and some complain about that. I mute it when not in use, but there's no satisfying everyone. There'll always be someone bitching about something. I just make sound my first priority and follow that cue.
Dave |
The Criterion will show a balance reading. The Criterion's remote will be very different from Rowland's prior minimalist remotes. It still won't be a 100-button style, but it'll provide a lot more flexibility. Unfortunately, I don't think it's on any site yet where you can see it. I saw one in his shop a few months back, but that was too long ago for me to provide any detail. (Darn, I should have taken a picture).
I understand your point of view towards controls, but I'm in the other camp. I like simple and minimalist, orieted toward an owner/user.
Dave |
Hah, that's funny about Audiofil vs. Audiofeil. Very different personalities indeed, thank goodness.
I'll vote for a balance display on all JRDG products where applicable. Right out of the box I started pushing the remote buttons for my Continuum 500, accidentally hitting balance instead of volume. Since I didn't know where it was relative to neutral, I needed to power off to reset the center point. With the lesson learned I've not made the same mistake and I have little reason to mess with the balance, but, if I did, it'd be nice to know how to get back to Center.
Dave |
On Stereophile's blog they say that the Criterion was on static display. I suspect that you're right and they're wrong (I saw it active at RMAF, but on AC only) but I'm wondering what was going on.
I suspect that Jeff ran it on AC and didn't want Stereophile to hear it until they could hear DC. Once Jeff gets the programming finished for this thing I suspect he'll never hire a programmer again. (Necessary evil).
Dave |
I heard it yesterday, through a crappy Primare CDP and with music that I didn't know, and the first impression was incredibly positive. The silence from which the music emerged was presented was absolute and the air and details of the recording venue where incredibly life like.
I guess someday soon I'll need to lug my Playback Designs MPS-5 over to Soundings to listen with a good front end, more appropriate for the Criterion/312/The Musik setup that followed the lowly Primare.
Dave |
|
Husk, no the remote was NOT fully operational yet. This is a machine with "production" boards, etc., but not released int the US yet, due to ongoing work on the remote. JRDG is right down the road from us here in Denver and Soundings is a long-time dealer; hence, the unit sitting at Soundings, awaiting a firmware update for sales release.
Dave |
Husk1, no pressure. ;-)
Macrojack, the gizmo factor is low for me, but the thought of retiring my Continuum 500 and going the Criterin/312 route has crossed my mind. I think that the sound is going to be THAT good. Diminishing returns, for sure. The Capri and Continuum are incredible bargains.
Oh yeah, don't forget, we'll need the separate box Critereon phono-pre (another wait) to fully replace the Capri and Continuum with a Criterion based system.
Dave |
Apparently. I understand that the issues are now restricted totally to the remote's functions.
Dave |
Hmm, there seems to be a misunderstanding... |
Huh, I'm not sure what you mean by "after JRDG was sold for chineses". Could you explain. I've visited his shop in Colorado Springs, CO as recently as last fall and Jeff was still there with his assembly crew. His software designer is in Boulder, CO and I met him at RMAF.
Asians have been major JRDG customers for many years, but the designs are developed by Jeff Rowland to please Jeff Rowland's ears.
Dave |
When I visited Jeff in his shop he talked about being amazed at how different an amp or pre-amp could sound by changing one or two internal wire. He held up three or four little micro-strands of wires, all of which he'd tried in some recent project. He does a lot of iterative testing in development and might use copper in one application and silver in another, all selected by ear.
Like Guido says, just because he uses a specific brand in a specific application today, doesn't mean that he'll use that in all future applications.
Dave |
I have visions of Snoopy dancing...anticipating the ecstacy...
Dave |
07-10-09: Audiofeil said:
"Why not write the review now Guido while you have some extra time?"
Very funny Bill. You're showing your usual discretion. How's your business doing??
Dave |
Where's the review of the Olds cornet???
Dave |
Bill's royal self image has him confusing a coronet with a cornet, neither of which has to do with cars.
My grandfather did own a Dodge Desoto with push button gear change, but then he wasn't much of a car guy, like Bill.
Bill, if you'd like to meet at a road course or autocross somewhere, I'd be willing to bet that I can beat you soundly, no matter what you drive. If you're coming to RMAF I could set something up. What do you need to make it interesting? I'm thinking 1,000-bucks or maybe 5,000.
Dave |
BTW Guido, three working valves will be enough for all but the rarest cornet or trumpet. Flugels often have four valves as do most piccolo trumpets, but seldom cornets and trumpets. You might like a mellow flugel, but the picc is an evil little beast that only very experienced trumpeters can handle.
Dave |
Guido, the Appogg reminds me very much of the HRS M3 in construction. They only have pictures on their site far, so it's hard to know if there are physical differences.
Have you seen any pricing yet?
Dave |
Speaking of Gamut, they had one of the very best rooms at RMAF. We couldn't compare the Gamut pre and the JRDG in the same system, but they were both clearly at the top of the heap.
Dave |
I will say, I agree with Guido with preferring the VA/Rowland/Boulder set up, BUT the GamuT was in a HUGE room and we were sitting much further away from it than the set ups at Soundings. Perhaps that distance impacted our ability to hear the inner detail of the large GamuT tower speakers.
I'm very comfortable in saying that Rowland, GamuT and Boulder are amongst the top performers in this rather serious price range. Which makes me think of the FM Acoustic, another amplifier that I liked a lot, but the six-figure price was offputting and it was not clearly superior to the trio that I mentioned before.
Sorry to take the thread away from the Criterion, but comparsions, even when VERY informal can be useful.
Dave |
Sean,
I was pleased that Soundings was agreeable to switching around the amps and even putting the Continuum 500 in place of the Boulder 2060 and the 312. I'm glad we went on Thursday before the crowds came so that our request was reasonable.
I'll get back over there soon and compare the Continuum 500 to the Criterion/312 combo. That will be interesting.
BTW, it was nice meeting you and sharing a great Indian dinner with you and other friends, new and old.
Dave |
Clavil my friend, the sound of the amp was very, very good, IMHO. This was early in the show and the speakers were YG and the player was a rediculously over priced Weiss ($30,000 and using a $20 Phillips transport), but, even with this marginal set up, I think that the FM is top echelon and shown through.
We were told a price in US$. I can't imagine paying that much for an amp, so, after I learned the price, I lost interest. Despite that, I heard enough to say that anyone wanting to spend that kind of money on an amp should consider it, along with the Rowland 312 and Boulder 2060. It was clearly handling the big YGs easily. The harmonic richness was hard to judge because of the usual show issues, like speakers, front end and room, but I could hear good things shining through.
For that kind of money you'd expect a in-system audition at your house, after they check your bank account. ;-)
Dave |
David, I haven't heard the DarTZeel, but have heard the Criterion for quiet a few hours. By implication in listing the shortcomings of the DarTZeel (slight masking and warming coloration) you're describing the strength of the Criterion that I've heard. The Critereon offers an incredibly quiet background and ruthlessly accurate harmonic presentation, full of rich detail.
Much to my surprise, many people spending this much money still want warmth and take comfort in it. I understand this and that's why there's more than one solution available. However, at this level, if your front end isn't equally transparent, quiet and accurate, then I think you'll be wasting a ton of money if you buy any of the pre-amps being discussed here.
Bad CD playback will not be sweetened up by any of these devices. A touch of warmth might be a good idea with bad CD, but getting a better player first, like the Playback Designs, Esoteric or others is a better idea. I'd rather have a stunning CD/SACD player with a Rowland Capri than any of these expensive pieces. Of course that's my prejudice and priority suggestion and many may not chose to follow it.
Dave |
Isn't this glorious. We actually have an incredibly wide ranging list of contenders for top pre-amp and top amp honors. Unfortunately we seldom get to hear them switched in and out of the same system. Due to a stroke of luck, I got to hear the Rowland amp vs. the Boulder amp and I'll get some time together before year end to compare the Criterion with Boulder's top offering and Rowland's own Capri.
Is there a DarTZeel owner in the Denver area? It'd be fun to insert it into the same comparison.
Dave |
Sorry Kawika, but it'll be late November most likely. I was out of town until yesterday and I've got tons of catching up to do at work, with a few "events" coming up in the next few weeks.
Dave |
Exactly Ed. The Coherence and Capri are Jeff's reference, which are high standards indeed. Talking to him, there's no way this will be a step backward, although I find it hard to imagine how he'll surpass the Capri.
Ed, have you compared the Capri and the Coherence-II?? I be really interested to hear about that.
Lapierre, please don't confuse JRDG's implementation of ICEPower with B&O's. The B&O base unit is just that, a starting point. Jeff improves on that in almost every way imagineable. It is indeed the foundation of his amplifier designs.
Also remember, the Criterion and the Capri are pre-amps, so there's no ICEPower unit in either.
Dave |
Lapierre said:
"This is fascinating stuff to me...and I don't own JRDG components."
You probably will.... |
Kawika, all I can say at this point is that it sounded very quiet and musical in the 312/Dei Musik system. At one point there were about 8 people in the room and Rod switched from the Marantz SA7 to the Playback Designs everyone immediately recognized the improvement in transparency, sound stage and impact. There were a couple "wows" in the room.
When the firmware is finished and the Criterion is operating on battery power, I'll go to Soundings and compare it to the Capri in a more meaningful way. Unfortunately that may be about the time that you take delivery. I think we're talking about a few weeks. The programmer needs Jeff to get back from Asia and push him to finish.
Dave |
Brazcole, thanks for your report.
As you've discovered, the speakers' interaction with the room has a huge influence on the sound that you hear at your listening chair. Guido and I have benefited greatly from something called the Sumiko Master Set, which very precisely sets the speakers within the room relative to each other and all the room bounderies. We've both talked about the "Master Set" in these forums and you might want to read more about it.
Unfortunately, I don't know who to refer you to in your part of the world. There's a possibility that an instructional DVD may be developed within the next few months, but I've been hoping that for the last couple of years. I'll let you know here if that happens.
Ciao,
Dave |
