Thank you Raquel. . . looks like the manuals are a little vague in that case. . . they talk about "direct coupling" what ever that means. . . your updated and correct info on the subject is very much appreciated BTW.
Now on Corus, Capri, and Criterion. . . Corus does not replace capri at all. . . Capri remains the JRDG 'entry level' preamplifier at a price point less than $3K. If what I have heard is correct, Corus has much more sophisticated internals in the same class of Criterion, and targets the $10K pricepoint. Criterion remains the JRDG flagship at approx $18K. I'll find out the Criterion vs Corus differences in the next several days and will post here. |
Guido: Thanks. My Coherence II does feature output (and input) transformers. |
Thank you Raquel, one difference in the output stage between Coherence I and II appears to be--according to the copies of the manuals I have--that the older varsion had an output impedance of 300Ohms unbalanced and 600Ohms balanced, while verion II seems to have 50Ohms regardless. Manuals also say that Coherence outputs are direct coupled. I suspect this may mean that there isn't the transformer-coupling present in later designs, whose function, among other things, is to maintain impedance invariance. Whether this has had any bearing on your results with the coax2XLR adapter experiments, is of course, anyone's guess. |
It's a II (manufactured February 1999). For those curious about the differences, Rowland's website states:
"Q. What is the difference between Coherence Series I and Series II?
A. The Coherence Series II was released April 1997. The Coherence Series II upgrade involves the redesign of the attenuator amp circuitry. The actual circuit topology is similar; however, all of the circuit components were improved, taking advantage of recently available modern surface mount technology. The output amplifier is a newly developed, dual high-current transimpedance amplifier which handles both phases of the output circuit on one isothermic, copper lead frame power device. This output amplifier and all associated surface mount circuitry allow significant reductions in circuit loop area and path length yielding wider bandwidth, faster setting time, reduced dielectric absorption and greater thermal tracking stability. The overall sonic result is greater clarity during complex music passages and increased resolution of intertransient silence." |
Raquel, Is your Coherence an II or an I series II? Guido |
Mike and Guido:
I just saw your October posts about the "zeel" 50 Ohm connections and want to pass along the following -
I have a Coherence II preamp, which I note has a stated 50 Ohm output impedance. When I bought my darTZeel amp, Jonathan suggested that I try the 50 Ohm connection in view of the output impedance of the Coherence II. Peter Ledermann (a/k/a Soundsmith), bearing in mind the special PIN arrangement for Rowland XLR connections, reterminated a 50 ohm cable for me with a female XLR on the preamp end, of course retaining the BNC connection for the darT end. I believe it is a 30 ft. run, but it might be 25 ft. The preamp drove the amp, but I thought I might be hearing some distortion. In A/B tests with a 25 ft. run of Jena Symphony, I preferred the Jena and left it in, where it has remained ever since. There was some speculation that the XLR termination may have spoiled the party, but I was told by others that this does not make "electrical sense". It could also be the case that the stated 50 Ohm output impedance of the Coherence II is nominal (no bandwidth is specified), and that variations at other frequencies screwed things up. In any event, it didn't sound obviously wrong, but there was something subtle that was awry, which I perceived as distortion.
Conventional wisdom challenges the very idea of 50 Ohm connections, but Herve swears by it and I have heard a top-flight PD --> darT preamp --> darT amp set-up with 50 Ohm connections and it sounded great (the owner greatly preferred it to his Jena Symphony, incidentally). I do not question that 50 Ohm connections work - it just didn't work given the particulars of my Rowland experiment.
It's hard to say whether modding the preamp to include an actual BNC output would have made a difference, but given the annoyance I experience with such experiments (my preamp to amp cable run traverses an inhospitable crawl space, the area behind my equipment shelves is tight and requires a lot of contorting to make preamp connections, not to mention what would be involved in sending the preamp back to JRDG for modding), I didn't take it any further. |
Claude, I do not have complete information, but it is apparently correct that JRDG has unwrapped a new preamplifier at CES. The device is called Corus (that is correct--Latin spelling). It seems it is very similar to Criterion, except that it lacks DC batteries power operations. The AC power supply is likely the same as that of Criterion, but housed in a machined Aluminum box to fit behind the main chassis or on the floor. . . perhaps similar in shape to the PC-1 rectifier. Most other internals I believe may be the same as criterion, or extremely close to it. I'll know more in the next couple of weeks. US price might be just below $10K. |
not to take Capri's place but to be ocupate the place beetween the Capri and the Criterion |
IMO the Criterion will be for a long time the top of the line. I have heard a lot of preamplifier from others brands. With 1,000 plus hours, the Citerion is the REAL 8º wonder of the modern world ( sorry, Wes Phillips and Ayre).
But, of course, JRDG needs to make money, I mean, they need to sell products that people can afford, so it's very possible a new preamplifier to take the Capri's place. |
Hi Guido,
I have heard here in Switzerland that Rowland will present his new preamp at the CES ... ?
do you know something?
Happy new year! |
Thank you Brazcole.. . I fear I will not make music but only horrid squeals. . . for many many months. I suspect the music from my system may evolve more rapidly than the music I'll be able to produce on the flugel (grins). |
Happy New Year, man, and congratulation for the Dillon Flugelhorn.
I hope you send to us a link for a movie of you playing music. Of course you don't need to be in the Amazon forest or the wonderfull sand of Namibia, but will be a pleasure listen to your music... soon.
Take care, Guidocorona. |
Merry Christmas all.. . hope everyone is having a Very Musical One! No Rowland gear under my virtual Xmas tree. . . but a little Dillon flugelhorn is being manufactured with 'my name on it.' . . hope it gets shipped soon. If anyone were curious. . .
http://www.dillonmusic.com/HeleoCart/ProductPage/DMB-FL-ROSE.aspx
and the answer is no. . . I have never played brass. . . but it's all DCSTEP's fault. . . he made me fall in love with his flugel last October in denver. . . now I'll have to learn to play it.
Besides who knows. . . if Rowland indeed introduces new products in 2010, I might very well end up succumbing again to audiophrenia. . .
http://positive-feedback.com/Issue46/audiophrenia.htm
and perform some act of uncontrollable audio lust sometimes later in the year.
guido
|
If past history is a valid indicative of future trends, I speculate that CD players may not be among JRDG 2010 announcements. |
a new preamp ? .... in price class beetween Capri and Criterion ? |
In an ad in the current Absolute Sound, JRDG stated cryptically, that at 2010 CES in a few weeks, they will unveil new products. Anyone care to guess what new stuff we may see from Rowland? |
A direct comparison of AYRE KX-R with Criterion would be very intriguing. Hope I can make it happen some time. G. |
has any one compared the criterion to ayre KCR or K1. |
I estimate I might have just over 2000 hours of music on Criterion. |
Guido, How many hours do you have on it now? |
Hi Jimmy, Criterion is pretty darn addictive. . . but as for putting your used kidney on Audiogon. If your organ is an 8 or a 9, you might be able to find a buyer, but I am concerned that your better half might get very upset and might thence put a legal lean on your remaining kidney (grins!) |
Husk, I have not compared C-03 and Criterion in the same system. From 3rd party comments, I have heard that C-03 is extremely musical, transparent, and smooth, but may yield only moderate authority. What I can tell you for a fact is that authority is one of the exceptionally strong points of Criterion.
From an architecture point of view, C-03 is a single ended design, with balanced inputs and outputs recreated using transformers. Transformers are also used in Criterion, which is however completely balanced in-circuit.
C-03 supports a certain amount of input and output level adjustments, but I have the impression that Criterion may be more complete from this point of view, as all Criterion inputs support offsets adjustments. Specifically, Each input can be assigned an independent gain offset in 0.5dB increments, ranging from -10dB to +10db, for a maximum possible offset of 20dB. Offset adjustments can be assigned from both the main control panel and from the remote control transmitter. Any of its inputs can be assigned to Theater bypass. An output gain adjustment is also available on one of the RCA outs with the same granularity and range.
Another interesting feature of Criterion is it has 2 completely separate preamplifier circuits inside. . . one serves all main outputs, while a 2nd one serves the record outputs, and its volume is set separately. The idea is that Criterion can control 2 completely different music environments. . . from separate sources to output in different areas of the house.
And of course, Criterion has dual AC/battery operations, while C-03 is AC only.
The power supply of Criterion is an SMPS with built in passive power factor correction (PFC) and several level of regulation and isolation. I suspect it is the primary cause of the Device's apparent insensitivity to power cords. C-03 I believe may utilize a toroidal power supply. I have not heard reports of power cord insensitivity about C-03.
Of course, until I hear the devices side by side, much of the above is of theoretical value.
Guido |
Guido-
Darn you! Darn these threads! After a few months past and I got further from my experience with the capri between the berkeley and my amps, I had convinced myself that my system was all I needed.
Now after reading your comments not only do I remember the capri but I find myself plotting to sell a kidney to finance a criterion... |
Guido, Any opinion on how the Esoteric C-03 would compare tothe Criterion? |
Sorry gang, my last response was from a far earlier post on this topic by Chris who found no reason to sell a preamp for another. I felt compelled to respond,I'm just about year too late! aloha, David. |
Chris, I have owned or intimately listened to many of the pre amps you mentioned, however until you have heard the THIS preamp you don't realize how way off base you are in stating that there is no reason to replace one's existing preamp. I own the Criterion and I'll flat out tell you that if you actually still think after listening to it in comparison to most of the above pre amps and still find no reason to replace it..... Congratulations! You're going to save yourself a bunch of money in this hobby! All these pre amps you mention are so far apart in performance scale from best to worst. What was once world class, as in the ML 26S, is way outclassed by a pre such as the BAT REX. If I had a ML 26S I'd sell it immeadiately after hearing the REX. This is just one example. My point is it sounds like you either need to get some updated listening comparisons or you just can't hear the difference. This is a tough hobby to be in if you can't hear the difference. On second thought, it just might make it easier! |
I have the impression that Criterion may be quite insensitive to power cords during AC operation. This has probably to do with the high degree of regulation of the power supply and the final passive power factor correction rectifier built into the power supply itself. G. |
I just try the JRDG powers cords. One first and then the another one. I had before the Valhalla, but I change it for the Harmonix Combak 350, but I keep in mind that the Valhalla is a thin power cord, so the power cord don't need to be thick.
Last week I try the Puccini's stock power cord instead of the Combak. The stock power cord was so better that I leave it in the CD player and I change in the Clock as well.
Today with the Criterion and the Model 312 the same happenned, the stock power cords are better.
I think the factory, when the devices has a very high price , they send together with the device a excellent power cord. Yes, why not? If you pay more or less 20k for something, why not a much better power cord?
Anyway, I have a Caspian Roksan, the price is about 2K, tuner in my system, and when I try the stock power cord it's sounded very worse, the difference is huge, that I leave the Combak in the tuner.
Now, I'm listenning a female heavy metal band called Meldrum. Those girls are amazing. I never imagine that I could listen to a heavy metal band with so much pleasure. |
Huh? What big ears you have said the wolf! |
You need to do a lot of things to get experience. I think all the guys that are in this path for a long time did many changes.
So I put the 312 again in my set up "just in case", as I didn't sell it for my luck because the price is somethinh hight. After few seconds I start to jump in my room (my wife was in the kitchen) like a kid. Beautiful sound, with strong and deep sound stage. Wonderfull device.
Tomorrow I'll put the GamuT to sell. |
Sorry Kawika, but it'll be late November most likely. I was out of town until yesterday and I've got tons of catching up to do at work, with a few "events" coming up in the next few weeks.
Dave |
Dave, when do you think you might be able to get to Soundings for the Pre amp comparissons? Should be VERY interesting as Jeff R. has designed that thing to be as close to standard impedances everywhere in and out so as to have minimal effect of other components up and downstream. I'd love to hear it on a big tube amp(s):}) |
Mike, yes I read the DarTzeal site and saw the 50Ohm impedance characteristics of the DarTzeel BNC interface. I have no idea if it can be added to Criterion post FSC, or what engineering work its addition may involve. G. |
Guido, the whole 'zeel' interface involves not only the cables but an engineered 50 ohm interface input and output. so simply having BNC plugs would not be sufficient.
i have no idea how much effort it might require to design and build that 50 ohm interface; it may be real simple. regarding Playback Design when they were putting the final piece together i recommended that they include the 50 ohm interface, and thankfully they did.
i saved enough money on interconnects in my system to pay for a good amount of the cost of the dart preamp (8 meter set of Nordost Valhalla XLR's just between pre and amp).
btw; when i was listing the attributes of the 'zeel' BNC interface i neglected to mention that BNC plugs have a better and more reliable mechanical connection than other interconnect plug types. obviously the TV broadcast industry uses BNC for video. |
Splendid idea Dave. It may be worth while you creating a separate thread to locate a Dartzeel user in the Denver general area who would be interested in contributing his unit to perform the Criterion/Dartzeel listening session.
Problem is that not all Dartzeel owners may be following this Criterion thread. G. |
Mike, at this point, Criterion does not support BNC connections. Inputs and outputs are XLR balanced and RCA unbalanced. All I/O is transformer coupled to resolve source impedance mismatches and apparently yields >90dB common mode rejection on balanced inputs. Input offset adjustment is available on all inputs with a 0.5dB resolution, while output offset adjustment is available on unbalanced output 2 with same resolution.
The import of all of the above of course is exquisitely theoretical. Only significant in system a/b listening has a chance of revealing actual musical/sonic differences and address compatibility with personal prefs.
a comparison of the following:
1. PD + Dartzeal BNC + Dartzeel pre,
2. PD + fav XLR IC + Criterion,
3. PD + same fav XLR IC + Dartzeel,
Would be very interesting indeed.
One complication of course is. . . what is the 'best' (cringes about crass absolute term) XLR to use for this exercise? I have had extremely satisfying results with the Furutech Evolution II ICs between Criterion and my Esoteric X-01 Limited, yet I shan't claim that I have reached the pinnacle of my IC quest without a lot of further explorations.
G.
|
One interesting point is that at Soundings Hifi in Denver, in the opinions of several, the Rowland 312 amp was preferred to the Boulder 2060 stereo in the areas of authority, macrodynamics and general fullness of sound, in addition to micro dynamics/microdetail, harmonic exposure, and involving musicality. As already mentioned, the rest of the system consisted of Boulder CDp, Boulder 2010 pre, and Vienna Die Muzick speakers.
Needless to say, we did not have the opportunity of contrasting with MBL.
Please note that, at this level of performance, I am more inclined to utilize the term 'preferred' rather than 'exceeded', because live observations between such top flight devices -- even in the most controlled of situations -- are very much relative to personal taste. G. |
David, glad to be here.
my use of the word 'zeel' refers to the 50 ohm BNC 'zeel' cable interface which darTZeel and Playback Designs use in place of conventional cables. this offers a few 'system' and 'synergy' performance advantages. they are cheap relative to typical cables used in systems at this level. they sound the same whether .5m or .5 kilometer. they outperform conventional cables due mostly to 'near-perfect' impedence matching.
side note; in the November (maybe Septemeber?) 2001 issue of Stereophile Herve Delatraz (Mr. darTZeel before there was an actual company or products) wrote a very interesting article about how all conventional interconnects were inherently flawed due to impedence miss matching. it's worth reading.
my question was whether 'zeel' cables were used in the Criterion--Dart NHB-18NS comparison.
the dart preamp is excellent when used conventionally in any system; but it's at it's best when used with the dart amp, Playback Designs and 'zeel' cables. |
Isn't this glorious. We actually have an incredibly wide ranging list of contenders for top pre-amp and top amp honors. Unfortunately we seldom get to hear them switched in and out of the same system. Due to a stroke of luck, I got to hear the Rowland amp vs. the Boulder amp and I'll get some time together before year end to compare the Criterion with Boulder's top offering and Rowland's own Capri.
Is there a DarTZeel owner in the Denver area? It'd be fun to insert it into the same comparison.
Dave |
Mike, a direct in-system Dartzeel/Criterion comparison for both battery and AC ops would be quite fascinating, particularly if vinyl media could be included in the proceedings. Guido |
Hi Mike. Glad to have you in on this. I'm fairly confident the Criterion will exceed the "Zeel" in most areas (yes I heard it in both modes, But having a bigger influence on the Zeel than the Rowland). As far as the 312, I do think it is a superb amp, but lacks overal slam and bass extention in comparison to other amps at this pre amp level. It's greatest attributes are the transparancy, image placement and honest neutral timbres. I just miss the sort of full bodied sound I had when I ran a Gryphon Antellion Sig (196 lb Class A Solid State) Would I trade the ultimate transparency of the Rowland for the Gryphon...? Not at first thought, but when considering the heat (I live in Houston, TX) I must live with the Rowland. BTW: I'm an electric Bass player. The Rowland's bass is more accurate in the details, but leaves a void in comparison to the Gryphon. I hear he has an upgrade in the works that deals directly with my (and a few others!)complaint. Aloha, David. |
I like the Dartzeel very much! What's not to like? My only reservation is that if you go beyond the resolutuion of CD the Dartzeel will have a very very slight masking effect and a tad bit of warmth to the perspective in comparison to the Criterion. beyond CD....to hi-rez PCM or real hirez such as vinyl or RTR? (please excuse my sarcasm....i could not resist). i wonder the context of this comparison? system? using 'zeel' interconnects and dart amp? any analog sources? or just digital....which digital? was the dart in battery mode? i do look forward to someday hearing the Criterion with the Rowland 312 amp. |
Husk01, I can give you only a semi useful answer by indirection as follows:
A friend of mine tried Berkeley DAC by itself as well as Berkeley into a JRDG Capri: he much preferred Berkeley into Capri; never the less he sold capri because of cost recovery considerations only and kept Berkely DAC.
I personally much prefer Criterion over Capri.
By extension, I suspect that I might prefer Berkeley DAC into Criterion than Berkeley by itself.
As I said. . . mine is a valid but indirect hypothesis. |
I am using a Sooloos HD system going thru a Berkely Audio Designs Alpha Dac. Are any of the above pres a food choice? |
David, I haven't heard the DarTZeel, but have heard the Criterion for quiet a few hours. By implication in listing the shortcomings of the DarTZeel (slight masking and warming coloration) you're describing the strength of the Criterion that I've heard. The Critereon offers an incredibly quiet background and ruthlessly accurate harmonic presentation, full of rich detail.
Much to my surprise, many people spending this much money still want warmth and take comfort in it. I understand this and that's why there's more than one solution available. However, at this level, if your front end isn't equally transparent, quiet and accurate, then I think you'll be wasting a ton of money if you buy any of the pre-amps being discussed here.
Bad CD playback will not be sweetened up by any of these devices. A touch of warmth might be a good idea with bad CD, but getting a better player first, like the Playback Designs, Esoteric or others is a better idea. I'd rather have a stunning CD/SACD player with a Rowland Capri than any of these expensive pieces. Of course that's my prejudice and priority suggestion and many may not chose to follow it.
Dave |
I like the Dartzeel very much! What's not to like? My only reservation is that if you go beyond the resolutuion of CD the Dartzeel will have a very very slight masking effect and a tad bit of warmth to the perspective in comparison to the Criterion. The Criterion is probably the most neutral and honest piece of audio gear I have EVER listened to in my entire life's experience. This is not necessarilly a good thing, but it is a stated opinion and you must understand its implications if you think you want it in your system. If you are CD only on a poorly sourced system, you will not be happy. It realy isn't "ruthlessly revealing", but just honest in all regards. It is as I've said before... A reviewer's dream machine! I have heard both (Dartzeel)now extensively and can make that comment without hesitation or doubt. The question I'm starting to think about is how it compares to the MBL mentioned in a recent prior post? Aloha, David. |
Apologies Husk. I inadvertently missed your post. Unfortunately I have no experience with MBL and DartZeel. I am sure they are fine devices in their own right. If you would like me to elaborate on the behavior of Criterion in some particular sonic/musical area, or you would like some particular tech info, I'll be happy to do so. . . but I can't compare it with devices I am not terribly familiar with. Guido |
Guido, I think Husk01 is speaking of Pre Amps.....Sounds like the MBL could be a very serious contender to the Criterion. The Dartzeel is colored in comparison to the Rowland. |
And of course let us add those exceedingly fine GamuT monoblocks to Boulder 2060, Rowland 312, and FM Acoustics. Unfortunately I do not remember the model of the GamuTs, but I seem to remember they were priced at approximately $26K, which is 1 fifth the price of the FM Acoustics . G. |
Guido, I am trying to choose between the Criterion, the Dartzeel and the MBL 6010D. Any thoughts on that? |
