Regarding the use of the G-0rB clock: a cheaper way to go is to get the G-03X and drive it with the Stanford Research PERF10. This solution seems to do the trick |
Hey Eelii - Nice to this thread active again. I have the WireWorld Platinums Series 7 between the DAC and Transport now. I like them alot , but am compelled to try the Mexcels. I believe as you have stated, the Esoterics have been voiced and designed using the Mexcels, and I would be foolish to not give them a listen. I'm going to try the Synergetic Research Element PCs also. I have on good word that the Esoterics behave very well with the SRs. I have never tried active cables before, this will be a first! Any thoughts?
Also, on the other site, there is a fondness for WireWorld cabling, espiecally from the Senior Members. I know the mark up on cables is crazy, and I hope that the forum is not being used to solicite sales. I would like to believe people are sharing there honest opinion on the chemistry between components and leave the salesmanship to private conversation! |
Hi Tom,
yes it is good to see it is gaining momentum again.
Yes I understand what you say regarding the WW recommendations. I have no experience at all with them. I assume they are very good but have no idea. One thing that I found strange was the claim the 6300 was compared side by side with the WW and that WW was way better. Not saying it may not be the case, I have no idea. But under such configuration of K01 and G01, that comparation is not possible since 6300 does not have a BNC termination as option. The top BNC model of mexcel is the 6100. Maybe just a mistake, and it was 6100 vs WW, don't know. In any case each one has to take advise as what it is worth for.
Regarding Mexcel it is also my understanding that Mexcel is used internally in these units, so even more reasons to try. YOu may like or not what you hear. That is a different thing. But if I had to try 3 brands from scratch, mexcel would be for sure one of them for this gear.
I have experience with SR, but more with their line tesla and not so much with the elements. I do like the Teslas. The digital I used before mexcel was actually their top digital model of the old Tesla line. I liked better mexcel when I tried and decided to change, although the SR were good too.
PCs I actually still use their SR HD; the top model of the old tesla line for digital application power cords. To tell you the truth I have done very little tests on PC with these units so far. I like the current HD I am using and so my priorities where elsewhere. However in a few days I am going to have the new Mexcel PC 9500 to try a the 3 esoteric units. Will report my findings if they are of your interest. |
I am very interested in your findings. As for the comparison of the Mexcels and WWs, i'm not so sure that comparison was ever made! Thats what I was saying about soliciting as a dealer, I tend to ignore any reviews by dealers of components and cables, they always are biased.
I hope to see the G-01 very soon, and I will order the 6100 BNC for the clock connections, give it some time to settle in and then I'll check out the 6300 II for my DAC to C-02 connection. The C-02 is just starting to open up. These Esoterics need a terrifically long time to really start to shine. My DAC/Transport took 400 to 500 hours before the
sound was constantly good.
Thanks for your help, I look forward to the change with the clock and new cables! |
Hi Eelii,
I am also curious on hearing differencies of Mexcel cables on clocking unit. I was spectical on cable differencies for clocking unit but audio hobby has always kind of tricky surprises. I know that esoteric products are designed for Acrolink Mexcel cables..I would be happy to hear your findings with Mexcel cables.
Colecat: Esoterics needs more than 400-500 hours to settle, as far as I know you have to burn same outboard..I made burning on dual XLR outboard and music becamed more detailed and less digital artifacts, I am on 700-800 hours and still have impression that sound is still developing. One thing that I am sure of power cables made terrific differencies on mostly transport.. |
I was on the Esoteric sight for latest updates on new D1/P1. The best I can make out translating, based on the D-02 at $23500.00 retail would put the new set at $86500.00 . Thats 2650000 yen for the transport, 1250000 yen for the DAC x 2 = 5150000 yen for the set .
Wonder how it sounds compared to the D-02/P-02 combo? I definately perfer the style of the D-02/P-02 over the new ones. |
I will surely update you on the P9500. I am very much looking forward to hear these with esoteric. Should be with me mid next week or so. Not clear still if i will buy a 6300 II or not. I may or leave it for later. Also want to compare with the old one.
Tom, you can be sure you will like it better with clock. It did make a big dif in my system in all areas.
The 01s I am sure it will be better. How much still to be seen. But I think it makes more sense to upgrade gear so no component is clearly infeior to the rest of system or that is what you will get. Or at least the improvement will be much less than it should. Myself, the next upgrade I have in mind is the amps. The 01s, besides price, the problem is where to place all those boxes. Is 2 extra boxes you need to make space for. And also no streaming capabilities for me is a big miss. We will hear anyway more on these in the future. |
One more question regarding configuration of menus for the 02s.
When using only the P02 as input for the D02. In the P02 configuration menu under up convert, you choose whatever alternative you prefer. Do you leave the up convert configuration option in the D02 as "original" or do you use the same alternative as with the P02. Or it does not make any difference.
I remember this was a doubt I had when I first got the units. I left it at the time as Original. Now playing with the menu for the XLR signal configuration I just saw this again and was wondering what other are doing. |
On the use of the G-03X clock over the G-0s or newer G-0Rb, i had the G-0s rubidium clock for several years an enjoyed it very much with my P03U and D03; for various reasons, I had to sell the G-0s clock a couple years ago and spent a while with no clock in the system. I later had an opportunity to add a G-03X or G-0s back into the system; I took a chance and put the G-03x into the system and found that it gives me what I want in terms of a good amount of clocking accuracy coupled with a bit more musical presentation with a bit less of the analytical edge that I had with the G-0s. I'm not dinging the Rb clocks in the least; for my ears I was able to achieve what I wanted with the G-03x and think it is worth consideration... |
Eelii, I am in the process of auditioning Stage III Concepts PCs, I will use Minotaurs on the DAC and Transport and will use the Zyklops on my PS Audio PS 10. I also think the PS 10 may be inhibiting the performance of the Esoterics, as they have such good power supplies. What are you using for line condition and surge protection?
Just wanted to hear what you think! Have you heard the Stage IIIs ? There are a little pricey, but are at the top of the food chain in terms of science and design... Oh ya , and price!! |
Hi Zephyr, I was look back at this Excellent Thread and saw you are using Legacy Focus 20/20s. I have a pair I've been listening to for 10 years and they still sound great. Definately a great American speaker, and super bang for the buck. I have them in my Family room system with a Bryston electronics, and an Esoteric X01/D2 for multi channel music, preyyt good system.
Anyway, are you still using the Legacy's as your main system speakers, or did you move on to the Whispers, as you noted? I am interested on moving to the new Legacy's with the Wavelaunch, any advice? Tom |
I used the Focus 20/20s for quite a while, then added FocusHDs to the system and 2.5 years ago changed up to a pair of Focus SEs with ever-improving enjoyment and results at each steps! My next stop is AERIS with the Xilica processor though the decision between AERIS and Whisper is a difficult one. I'd suggest you hear AERIS and also the new Whisper; you will be very happy either way! |
Tom, I use SR power cell. I like the sound with the esoteric plugged to it. However I am waiting for a PP 3000 unit that I want to try since I have heard very good things of it. It may take a while to get it here, but the concept of protection, unlimited power, and battery support is very appealing, plus I have had excellent feedback on it. Will report on it, although still do not have confirmation of delivery date.
PS I use to have the PPP I think it was called. I did not like the sound of it too much in my system. To my hears it sounded better directly to the line. Although that was a while back and not with the 02s, but with the 03s. I do feel the 02s do benefit from a good power conditioner, but as always with these, it can make things better or worse. So I guess some models make them improve from connecting to the wall and some make them worse.
In the case of power cell is a bit of a trade off. You get better dynamics although music is a bit less "fluent" sort of speak. Overall I do prefer it with the power cell. With the PPP it was the other way around. We will see with the PS unit. |
Eelii- Which conditioner is the PS? Are you referring to the PS Audio Perfectwave Power Plant? |
No sorry, the Pure power 3000+.
It is a canadian manufacturer.
I already have the PC9500. Will report findings soon. Have them in the DC, transport and DAC.
Will have another 2 for amps tomorrow or day after. |
Eelii, Awesome, can't wait to hear your findings ! Keep us posted |
Eelii- my clock has arrived, I'm picking it up tomorrow... Any advice on initial hook-up? Still short an BNC 75ohm cable for the transport hook-up. I still excited when something new is going into my system! |
Congrats Tom!!!! I remember my clock did arrive also well in advance estimated delivery time.
You have 3 pairs of terminals out of the clock A, B and C. They are A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2. I did some test initially connecting Transport to A1 and DAC to B1, and closing all other outputs, or connecting transport and DAC to both A1 and A2, and closing all Bs and Cs, outputs. This last combination was advised by esoteric and so that is how I have it. I thought I heard differences between the 2 ways of connecting, but it was during break in time so that could have been. Esoteric said that the 02s are considered a system together so better to connect both to the As outputs. Very important to close the other 4 outputs Bs and Cs.
As to the mode, you will have to change both transport and DAC and set the clock menu: Use direct master clock link at 22.5792MHz.
You will love it since moment one. Will improve with time, I assume, but I remember I did like it very much right out of the box.
Get a cable!!!!!! |
The Clock arrived so quick I didn't think of the cable right away. I ordered the matching Wireworld Platinum Eclipse BNC, thats what I have on the DAC/Transport , I can't see mixing the clock cables, but I did want to try the Acrolink/ Mexcels 6100s. I think I'm going to spend the momey on the interconnects before I change clock cables, it's not like the Wireworlds are bad, in fact they are there best cable and I loke them alot as ICs. Well anyway, I'll keep you posted, and thanks dor the help and support! |
Yes. Do go step by step. I think considering you have one BNC already and are used to the sound of it, it will be cheaper and also easier to asses the impact of the clock by isolating changes.
Once you get used to it, you can better much better identify digital cable changes, while also you recover from the expense :-)
Interconnects may make sense to be your next cable upgrade. And PC. I am assesing right now the 9500s in the 3 digital. Being listening for 2 days now. Do not want to jump ahead of time so will be reporting findings in a couple of days more. But they are very good. How good I will share soon. |
Ok so after listening for 5 days to the 3 mexcel PC9500 at my P02/D02/G01 this much I can say. These are incredible power cords. Easely the best I have ever heard. At least in my system. Not going to enter into all the details becouse you have read them already in any given review when a reviewr wants to say any product is the best ever... All the topics apply to the max extend... Just two notes. If you want to know how deep, how much impact, and how controlled, defined and realistic you esoteric can play, you need to try these out. It is brutal at some stages and very realistic. Second my advise to anyone thinking on expending money on power cords, would be to try these first.
I am going to leave a comment from a industry designer of high end gear that shared with me before I tried them. It proved very accurate, and although not the typical overdone bunch of claims, it may be useful.
"I have to admit I do not know a better power cord as the 9500 up to now and I tested a lot)
The sound is faster, more dynamic and has on the other hand more black background. (The range from silent to full music is much more)
Tonal overtones from instruments are more vivid and the cable sounds sweet - but not to sweet- it is very neutral on the other hand.
Details in the music are much easier to perceive."
Yes that is the case and then more...
Cant wait till I get the next two for amps. Will report what an extra 2 adds. They have gotten lost somewhere with the courier... |
Hey Eelii, You are making things very difficult, how much are these cords? And where do you live? I look firward to the full report! Thanks Tom |
Tom, I know... I am based in Spain and pay them in Euro. Not sure in the US. Their old top model was priced around 5K USD I think, but you see some second hand of the old model at good discounts. Not all the time but they can be found. So I guess there will be some 9500 in a while. Hey, is not like the 02s sound bad with other power cords you now that... All I say is that if you have some PCs you are happy with but you are thinking in upgrading right away, it may be worth to take your time and listen to these along other candidates. And then asses if it is worth it or not given the price. You may find that it is not, or the other way around, and decide to wait to find them second hand or whatever before upgrading to other less expensive but not as good. |
Eelii, I am commiting to the Synergistic Research Element Series CLS PCs and Powercell 10 SE MK III. .Will place my order tomorrow, take a look a let me know what you think... Taik to you soon! |
Powercell I have the Galileo I think MKII. It is good. Do not have any experience with the CLS power cords.
I bought the CLS speaker cables and had for trial the CLS interconnects balanced.
I no longer have the SC and sold them not too long after. And decided not to buy the interconnects. They were good, but the sound is different in the element series than it was in their Tesla line, and I actually liked the sound of the old Tesla line better. I assume is very system specific. The Powercell I still keep it though, and although I will be trying a new power conditioner soon, I think I will keep the power cell, since it gives a very particular presentation that I may want to revisit every now and then.
SR has a very characteristic sound in my opinion. There are things they do very well. As said it is a very particular music presentation that you have to like. If you like it, you will love it. Read this review: I find it very interesting and actually accurate. What the reviewer reports is very close to what I hear as well. I think it can be of help to you.
http://www.highfidelity.pl/@main-357&lang=en
In any case as always I would advise for you to listen first. Assume you have heard them in your system? Those are easily available for trial in the US. I think even SR has a trial program for the US, which is a good thing and shows confidence in their products.
Hope this helps |
Eelii, I ordered a trial with the Element Series CTS Power Cords and a Powercell 10 SE MK III. When they arrive I will have 4 weeks to audition them in my system, if I like them, I send back the trial cords and Synergistic drop ships the new ones to me. I figure I won't need 4 weeks, probably a couple of days to settle in and I should get a feel for them in a week or so. I know with the Synergistic stuff you either love 'em or hate 'em. I'll keep you posted. |
That's a good deal. Given them 2 or 3 days and you will now. If you can first plug and try the powercell alone. Listen for 3 or 4 days and asses on it alone. And then plug the CTS power cords to be able to tell which does what. The power cell in my experience has a different effect altogether than the cables. They may add to the equation or not. But they are 2 different set of products each doing its thing, and you may like one or other or both. |
I ran into a little snag, I ordered a .5 meter clock cable, and I have .5 AES/EBU cables, so I can' t configure the clock to be within distance to reach with the cables I have. I ordered new clock cables yesterday, should see them by Friday! I am looking forward to adding a clock, then adding a Powercell, then new cords, and adding a new C-02 preamp into the mix. Wow, exciting times at the Colekat household.
I was listening to tunes yesterday and the sound was great, one of those
" good" days. Thinking about the potential of this system, I have four new changes or combinations of some changes. When its a good day , it's hard to imagine it can sound better. In the States, I definately notice better sound on weekends, definately power grid issues.
Anyway, I have alot to look forward too and to listen for! I'll keep you posted! |
Hey Everyone, I've had the clock in my system for a few days and am totally blown away at the difference it has made. The clock has really elevated my listening experience to high point. Music is as real as I've have ever heard it in my listening room. In a word... Smooth, and it hasn't even broken in yet! |
Colekat: Either clock is a major improvement in my experience too...glad you enjoy the difference. What clock did you wind up choosing? I did a lot of experimentation with various clocking frequencies matrixed with upsampling rates and have a combination I like very much; if you want to talk through the options, drop me an Audiogon email and I'll be glad to jump on the phone and talk. |
Hey Zephyr, I have the G-01, which I am using at 22mhz . I just got everything on line Thursday, so I imagine this will get better and better. I can't believe there are doubters out there with the clock, it easily took my system to a higher level. It opened things up dramatically. I had heard the G-01 with a K-01 in a super system with Burmuster front end and Sonus Faber Aida's, so I had a good feeling that my system would have a doticable change for the good!.... I'll drop you a line, talk soon! |
Great. Exactly as expected. It is anything but small. The gain is widespread and large. Makes the 02s an even better system. |
Hi, My name is Rob and I recently purchased a P2/D2 combo and was wondering what settings you find to be the best as far as sampling and filtering. One thing I am a little confused on is the clock setting. Right now the dac is set to WORD OUT. Does this setting achieve the 22.5 mhz signal they are talking about because I can't get any other clock setting to work or link up. I have heard some harshness with the 24/384 upsampling setting. I am now listening to the 48/176 and it seems to be better. I am using the SLY1 filter as well. What are your thoughts ? |
If you have only the 2 box setup, setting the DAC, be it P03/D03 or P02/D02 is the way to go....this will cause the transport to sync using the clock in the DAC. I cannot speak for the P02/D02 but I find that 24/176 is the best clock setting on my P03U/D03. |
22,5 for clock is what is typically recommended by Esoteric. That is what I use, although I have not tried any other to say the truth.
Regarding up sampling I do use 48/176 and happy with this setting. I leave all filters off otherwise. To me it sounds very well this way. Again have not done extensive listening with any other settings. Only esporadic. Maybe some day. For now I am happy this way. |
If I have P-02/D-02 with G-0Rb, how I should connect them, as G-0Rb supports max 176.4kHz only.
1) G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> P-02
+ G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> D-02
2) G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> D-02 (22.579MHzHz) --> P-02
Given all other factors equal, and I totally prefer highest resolution sound, is (1) or (2) recommended from the technical/engineering point of view?
I am aware that general connection is (1), BUT
- in page 6 of D-02 owner's manual http://www.teac.co.jp/audio/manual_esoteric.html
- in page 42 of this powerpoint http://esoteric.teac.com/download/P-02/Downloads/P-02:D-02_Power_Point.ppt
they indicate using connection (2)
Any thought from technical/engineering point of view?
Thanks. |
Hi Opera Lover. Haven't read the documents you attach. I will.
But I had in my house the P02/D02 with the old G-0Rb for a trial and the sound was fantastic. Great improvement. I did use 1). Both units connected to the clock. I would imagine that is the best way of doing it by far. Did not even imagine connecting it the 2) way so can not comment but the whole point of it is the accuracy of the clock signal, I think.
Anyway try it. I think the advantage should be evident of 1) over 2) but let us know. As I said here, when I deciding to buy the new G-0 I tried first the 02s with the old model. The gain was great. It improved with the new clock even farther.
But the gain was greater from going with no clock to the G-0rb, than that of going from the old model to the new model. So enjoy. |
I have just asked esoteric of the same question, here is their reply (applicable to G-0Rb only, NOT G-01)
"Because a PLL circuit of P-02 isn't used, connection 2 is more simple than 1 as circuit.
Please try connection 2."
If I understand correctly,
using (1), sync freq between P-02/D-02 is at 176.4kHz, and P-02's PLL is in the loop
using (2), sync freq between P-02/D-02 is at 22.579MHzHz (and PLL is OUT of the loop), and the source reference clock is provided by G-0Rb (not oscillator inside D-02)
IF the above understanding is correct, if the clock is G-0Rb or G-0s, (2) should be better in technical theory?
I have not tried the 2 different connection yet, as I am still burning in P-02/D-02 now (close to 200 hours mark)
Regards,...
|
Hi Guys, Hi Eelii, How are the tunes with the 9500's? I have been trialing the Synergistic Research Element cords with the latest Powercell mk3 ! This is a very different sound and really works well with jazz and rock for me, but the jury is still out!
As for the clock, Tim Crable from Esoteric e-mailed me and gave me the
" best way" to hook up the clock is both P-02 & D-02 directly to the clock and use the A1 & A2 ports turning off all other off. There were several reasons stated for this and it was the G-01 , not the Grb, but the logic is the same. As for the output, when you hook up to the Word in BNC on both the D-02 & P-02, I assume you went into the menu and turn off the word out on the D-02, that bypasses the clock in the D-02, and the P-02 has no clock so the combo cannot see a signal from the D-02! |
Eelii, Have had the SR cords and Powercell for two weeks, have barely listened to them, baby has had all the attention. Tough to listen to music with a two week old baby ! But my impressions so far are very favorable! With jazz and rock very helpful in expanding the dynamics that may be squelched with the recording process. But there is an element of change to the music I cannot explain yet. How are the 9500's in your system? I will keep all posted of my findings... Got to get back to Madagascar, seen this movie fifty times... Funny what a 2 year old gets obcessed with! I wonder if music will be next, Hmmmm, better get a good education, this is cheap! |
Dear Colekat,
"There were several reasons stated for this and it was the G-01 , not the Grb, but the logic is the same."
While I am not sure which one is better as I have not tried, the logic is not the same.
G-01 can output 22.579MHzHz, but G-0Rb can output max 176.4kHz. That is why there is such question,
1) G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> P-02 + + G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> D-02
2) G-0Rb (176.4kHz) --> D-02 (22.579MHzHz) --> P-02
especially
- page 6 of D-02 owner's manual http://www.teac.co.jp/audio/manual_esoteric.html
- page 42 of this powerpoint http://esoteric.teac.com/download/P-02/Downloads/P-02:D-02_Power_Point.ppt
cheers, |
Hi Opera Lover, Hope you are enjoying your Combo. I was unaware that the Grb did not output 22.579Mhz. I do know , as you stated, you want to stay away from using the PLL circuitry if it all possible. I have my rig connected directly from clock to both D-02 and P-02 directly, and the clock is output 22.579 Mhz. I also used the clock output at 176.4, but clearly perferred the 22.579 output. Music sounds very natural with the clock at any output into the D-02/P-02. Hell, music sounded great without the clock, but the clock takes it to another level. I don't know how there could be any clock doubters out there, it is easily the best upgrade I have made, and that includes all cables, and adding the C-02 preamp. I heard an immediate improvement and I would find it difficult to listen without the clock now that it is in the loop. |
Thanks guys for your input. Yes, I agree that the 48/176 sounds the best. I am experimenting with different clock settings now to see if I hear any improvement. |
Hey All D-02/ P-02 Listeners, It is certainly a treat to be entertained with the great fidelity these machines achieve, no matter what the settings,they are truly amazing world class performers and a gift to own.
Merry Christmas everyone and Happy Holidays.
Great Listening To All |
There is an important difference between the G0rb and G01. They are both using the same rubidium clock unit inside, but the rest is different. G01 is a Master clock (22mhz, etc.) replacing the master clock signal in dac, and a Word (44.1 khz, etc) clock. The older G0rb is only a Word clock. The older transports has pll and accept word clock. The new P02 doesnt use a pll chip to make things purer and simpler. So it would be the best if you are using G0rb only with D02, and then slave the D02 with P02. If you are using G01 you will get the best performance by using it as a master clock (22mhz). |
To Colekat:
It is worth using G0rb or G01 clock with p02/d02.
To Eelii08:
After comparing p01vuk with p02 I have decided to switch to p02. Even tough it was lacking ultimate bass and laidback nature of the p01, p02 was more open, clear and had a bigger soundstage, also during louder passages p02 wasnt a bit coarse or busy. There is a smaller difference with cds.
I prefer s-dly1 filter and no upsampling or 2x with cds. To me 4x and other filters shrinked the soundstage and made the sound a bit bright. |
Btwy, The new Grandioso P1/D1 is out in Japan probably to compete with dCs Vivaldi. The transport is using the exact same transport mech. as the p02. It has more advanced upsampling that is capable of true DXD 32 bit 352khz versus the p02's 24 bit 352khz. Also its power supply consisted of similar 4 transformers like p02 is housed in a different chassis like the older p01vuk.
As for the D1 it is a dual mono design like the older d01 and is using 16 dacs per ch. and 36 bit processing (an obvious marketing gimmick if you ask me) versus the D02's 8 dacs per ch. and 35 bit processing. It has a completely different analog output stage. Its USB can accept DSD as well. |
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everybody. |
To Eelii08:
I meant there is a smaller difference between both transports with SACDs. |
To Tony:
You havent told me the result of your comparison. |
