Ok, So after much thought and asking questions here on audiogon as to whether I should get a new cdp or DAC, I decided on a DAC because I plan on implementing a music server with a Mac Mini. I got it last week and hooked it up so that I could do A/B comparisons with my cdp as is, and through the DAC. My cdp is a 1-2 year old Onkyo dv-sp405 dvd/cd player. At first I was impressed. The bass and vocals were more defined, and there seemed to be more space. Not a lot more space, but just a little bit more openess. The vocals were also moved forward in the soundstage and had more thickness. The thing is, none of these things were very dramatic. THe more time I have sat and listened and done comparisons on many cd's I find the results vary. On some cd's there is significant improvement, and on others, hardly noticeable. In a blind test, do I think I could reliably say whether I was listening to the cdp directly or through the DAC? Let's just say I wouldnt bet my life on it. I probably wouldnt even bet 20$ on it, unless I could hear the two back to back, and on some recordings, not even then.
Now I know about diminishing returns, but I would think the difference between a 150$ dvd/cdp and a 2K$ DAC would be pretty obvious. On top of that, My DAC is hooked up with Transparent Cables (MW Super) and my cdp with 50$ Monster Cables.
Continuing.. I expect some people with say that a good dac needs a good transport. Some will probably say that the dac is being held back by the onkyo as a transport. I have also compared the cdp through the DAC against apple lossless files played from my computer through USB. They are identical.
What could be the weak link? I do not want to say what DAC I am using but lets just say it is a very recent one and around 2K. It is from a very respected company and very well reviewed. My other gear is a McIntosh MA6450 integrated, gallo ref 3.1 speakers, transparent cables. Could it be that my amp is not very revealing? I am thinking about selling the DAC and getting a cheaper one (DAC MAGIC, PS AUDIO DL3) since I will need one for my Mac Mini anyway. Honestly, I just dont think I can justify having 2K in my current DAC for the minimal difference.
Tvad: You mention that I need better amplification. No offense taken. That had actually crossed my mind and is why I asked in my original post if my amp was not revealing enough. I do not want to stray away from integrateds though as I have space requirements, and frankly, I dont want more pieces to be wondering/worrying about. I do however like what I have read about the Bel Canto REF 1000s, and are probably the only seperates I would consider. Other than that I was thinking the Bryston B100sst, Plinius 9100, or Mark Levinson No 383. I guess this is the start of another thread, but what do you think?
Chayro: I have been using some Sigur Ros, M. Ward, Fleet Foxes, and Radiohead cds. The M. Ward albums seem to be recorded especially well. I am trying to stick to newer stuff.
What CDs are you using as a benchmark? If you're using some super-compressed commercial recording, you may not have any additional resolution to gain. I bought a reissue of the Vanilla Fudge record on Sundazed and it sounded no better than a CD. The air, space, good stuff has to be in the source in the first place for the better player to show its mettle - IMO, of course.
If you want to hear a serious difference, go to ebay and purchase a VALAB DAC for $200. They come up for sale avery couple of weeks. Then drive it with a low-jitter source. Not your CD player. Simple, NOS DAC's are superb, but only if driven with low-jitter digital.
Jitter is #1 problem. D/A converter distortion and noise is #2 problem. Preamp noise and distortion is #3 problem. Lick all of these and you will have amazing sound quality. Not HiFi anymore, but music.
Objective1: Not a dumb question and honestly.. I am not sure. It is not brand new in that I am not the first owner. I bought it here on Audiogon. 2 mos old I believe. How much its first owner played it I am not sure, but in 2 mos. it is very possible it wasnt used much. Actually a very good point... I am going to start leaving my cdp playing when I am not at the house to break it in, just in case it hasnt been already. Thanks.
Don't listen to these guys telling you your system or your listening skills are not good enough. That's a load of crap, the Gallo speakers are plenty good enough and I'm sure you are, too.
Generally speaking, one-box players have much less intrinsic jitter to deal with than transport-DAC solutions. Nevertheless, I'm surprised at your results. What sort of cable are you using between the transport and the DAC?
Tvad: Thanks for your advice. I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment about the "Ah-Ha!" moment. I was expecting that when I got my current DAC and it just wasnt there. I'm not sure I want to go back to just the onkyo cdp, but I'd like to find the DAC out there that makes me go Ah-Ha!. My suspicion, and worry, is there may be nothing (at least in my price range) that will be do that.
Agree with previous posters. Would add that you should consider your speakers. I finally broke down and upgraded mine. The new speakers have allowed me to hear more nuanced detail in all of my music, and to hear differences in different configurations of my other components and cabling that I couldn't hear before.
There is a school of thought expressed by some, most notably the reviewers at HIFICRITIC, that there has been an actual regression in sound quality from that of 15 years ago. They think that most modern CD decoders and players have opted for parts that measure well but do not sound particularly good. I cannot entirely reject this as most of my digital equipment is from this period and holds its own against some expensive modern gear. They recently tested several players in the $3000 range and were disappointed with the sound quality. They also tested an MSB Platinum DAC 111 whose price there was 10,000 pounds. It scored considerably better but at almost exactly the current rating [ they adjust the ratings for older equipment] for my Audio Synthesis DAX from 1992. They find that there has been considerable improvement at the very top of the market but not necessarily in most of it and an actual regression toward the bottom. I neither endorse nor reject these opinions as my own experience has been too limited to form an accurate assessment.
Farjamed, it's healthy to sustain skepticism. Good for both mental and fiscal health. I was in the same camp as you, very skeptical of the effects of power conditiong/cables. Now, I couldn't imagine using stock power cords. However, every situation, system, and set of ears is different. There is no universally applicable solution. When I had equipment with less robust and well engineered power supplies, I found power conditioning very worthwhile. After upgrading cd player and preamps, I found power cords upgrades to be much more worthwhile than the power conditioner and ended up preferring things without the conditioner. In the end though, it is true that no tweak, cable, or conditioner is going to dramatically change the character of a component. They can add small, but audible, increments of improvement though. To one listener, that is worthwhile money spent. To another, a colossal waste of money.
That you can't reliably hear differences is not surprising for a lot of reasons....and Tvads advise is sound.
Consider that 1) Your equipment may not be resolving enuf to reveal subtle differences that exist in many ss digital devices. Consider that 2) Your present listening skills are not attuned to the differences and/or that different devices can make, or that these differences are not important to you (yet).
The more advanced your equipment in general and your listening experience the easier the differentials become. At some point in time most everyone hears no difference, then they hear some difference which may or may not be important. Then they hear every difference, and lastly they not only hear every difference but the differences are all meaningful to them.
Take Tvads advice and don't worry about the fine points. :-)
Jylee: Do you think something such as the the MHDT Labs Havana or Paradisea DAC would sound different? Both are non-oversampling and tubed. They are much less expensive though I have read very good things about them. (Although I have read very good things about my current DAC, and while I am not dissing it, I just am not seeing what the rage is about)
Photon46. I will try ripping some cds in WAV format and trying again. Yes, I am using wall power and was actually thinking of getting something such as the PS Audio Quintet down the road, but I am skeptical about such things. I was skeptical about cables, and the difference that a cdp could make being that cables are well "just cables" and cd's are digital. It seems that my current situation justifies my skepticism. The way I see it, if a 2000$ DAC (an active component) does not make an obvious difference, how can a passive component such as a cable or power coditioner make an obvious difference. I could be wrong. Also, since everything in the system is using wall power (through a surge protector ofcourse) shouldnt it all be relative?
Tvad, as always the voice of terse reason and the bottom line. I think he's right, but I'm also in your camp and would scratch my head at the seeming inconsistency of cost/benefit. I ran into a similar experience recently where a recently bought PS1 (the one everyone's talking about) indeed was not significantly worse to my ears then my +$3k player. Really makes you crazy and wonder about the marketing engine behind it all.
IMO is if it doesn't sound right now, no cable, tweak or the like will change it dramatically enough in the right direction.
Jylee may be right, or it could be that other things are also holding back your new dac's potential. Regarding your comparisons, I don't mean to instantly digress to a different subject, but I think Apple lossless is an inferior sounding codec. This has been discussed at length in other threads with diverse opinions voiced. Who knows if our different perceptions are the result of our imagination or different equipment? In any event, I'd suggest comparing WAV files to the cd player just to eliminate a variable. I've upgraded cd players several times and my Assemblage DAC2.7 Platinum has sounded demonstrably better with each upgrade. So, don't discount the transport's contribution. You don't mention anything about your power conditioning, are you using stock power cords and wall power? Attention to this factor can also contribute to a cleaner sonic window that allows for differences to be apparent. There may not be a "weak link" per se. It could be your entire system is not synergistically combined. I'm not saying it is. Just simply stating that sometimes it takes replacing more than one link in the chain really optimize sound reproduction for your room and tastes. If you are basically happy with the sound you are getting, your instincts to get something less expensive and spend resources elsewhere are probably well founded.
I think you have confirmed one theory that many believe in: that modern digital gears sound pretty similar to each other. Modern 24 bit DAC chips from BB/TI/Wolfson are dime a dozen, and some of the budget players nowadays share the same DAC chips that used to be reserved for high end CDP a decade ago. In order to hear any major difference in sound, I think you need to go above $2000 mark, or go with some unconventional design (non-oversampling, no-filtering, tubed output). Otherwise they all pretty much share the same off the shelf DAC chip and filters, and the small design difference in the rest of the circuits in power supply and output stage yield small audible differences.
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