Need to re-discover analog - please help

Thanks for the follow-up report! Looks like a nice combination. Hope you enjoy your re-entry to vinyl.

I am suspicious of any tonearm maker that tells you to twist the wires in order to have proper antiskating. VPI make great 'tables. Got a HW19 MKIV myself. But I also have a Graham tonearm. I would do something with a Rega.

Further update and question: Now, 5 weeks later, and still waiting for its arrival, SOTA Sapphire V TT, OL Illustrious tonearm, Shelter 901, EAR 824. As some of you wisely predicted, this will not only end up in the main rig (Atma-Spheres, Kharma 3.2s) but will start there. Hence the balanced phono stage. So that I know what to expect, and do not have delusional expectations, will it sound as "good" as the EMM set-up???? Yes, no or maybe:)? Predictions, please. Will I be screaming for an upgrade soon or walk around like a Cheshire cat?

Spring -- I'm sure your EMM sounds pretty great (for a digital device!) however I wouldn't expect much in the way of good analog sonics until the cartridge has broken in for at least 150 hours; great sonics will take 200-250 hours. If anyone (including the manufacturer) says less, their blowing smoke up your . . . . . . And this assumes correct arm/cartridge set-up and (after break in) your finding the optimum cartridge loading (which based on the 901's 15 ohm coil resistance should be 325 ohms +/_ 50%) Until sufficiently broken in, expect the sound to be bright/thin, maybe a little grainy, with not much bass (even with the above-mentioned proper setting of SRA and load.) So don't do a lot of fiddling around until you know you have enough mileage on it. Premature tweaking is a mistake a lot of folks make. I can't imagine how those magazine people can write cartridges reviews with a straight face!

If you want to speed up the break in period, I suggest you by the Cardas sweep record, which has locked white noise grooves, and just let it run 24 hours a day for a week (when you're not actually playing records that is!) No need to fire up the rest of the system while running the Cardas record, but it's good for it if you want to.

Otherwise, averaging 2.5 hr/day of normal playing time, you're looking at over three months. Personally, I couldn't wait that long! Just as a side note: I bought a Transfiguration Temper W exactly two months ago, and been away two weeks during that period. The specs/instructions say 30 hours break-in. Yeah, right! I figure after 50 days, I've put around 80 hours on it (mostly just playing records) which I calculate by counting the number of records played times 35 minutes. And one can just now begin to hear it starting to go through it's metamorphosis into a really high-end device. I know setup is perfect, and load is set for its calculated optimum of 150 ohms. Recently, over a period of two or three days, the image/soundstage became solid and convincing, bass got tight, lyrics (transient response) became effortlessly intelligible, etc. Now I can only wait and listen before attempting any further refinements.

Have fun!

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Very helpful advice. Appreciate it, Nsgarch!

Springbok, good thoughts from Nsgarch above. Also keep in mind that, as a mechanical transducer and even after breaking in, all cartridges need to warm up a bit during each listening session, just like dynamic driver speakers. Before a serious listening session, I always play mine for about an hour with some complex and demainding music (e.g., organ) before sitting down to listen critically. You may also find that after that first 50-150 hour bread-in period (varies by cartridge), the suspension loosens up a bit and you need to readjust the VTA to compensate for the cartridge now riding a hair lower.

Good setup is critical to getting the best sound, and don't expect to shift between 150gr, 180gr and 200gr LPs without getting a change in sound due to the change in VTA that results from the varying thickness. Many of us end up adjusting VTA for each weight vinyl, and must keep in mind that all vinyl was not cut to the standard cutting angle so their can be LP-LP variances. This will depend on how sentivie your 901 is to cutting angle variances, some cartridges are not as sensitve to this as others and I don't know about the 901. Let your ears be your guide on this.

Unlike Nsgarch, I would plan to set up the cartridge optimally when new, but then plan to readjust as it breaks in. Cold out of the box, some cartridges can sound awfully good. I wouldn't angst over it, though, because as Nsgarch says, it needs to break in.

I also highly recommend you read and follow Lloyd Walker's advice for fine-tuning your turntable setup:
www.walkeraudio.com/fine_tuning_your_turntable.htm

Best wishes,

I have experience with both the Illustrious and the 901 on another table. The 901 is sensitive to temperatures. I think you'll find that it requires more VTF in the winter than in the summer. If the table rotates correctly and is quiet at the bearing then you will have something to challenge the Meitner front end right out of the box. One of the most knowledgable members here regarding the 901 is Doug Deacon. Don't hesitate to contact him for his thoughts on the 901. I'm not anal enough to bother with VTA differences between records but I can tell you that correct VTA will reap huge rewards with the 901. You'll know it when it's right.

It is obvious why, when I went to Cutler's record/CD shop in New Haven yesterday, they had maybe a few (if that) hundred old LPs, most of them of average-poor quality, and many, many thousands of CDs - and no new classical LP pressings............because people dont want to change the VTA for each season, each LP and clean the software 100 different ways before each playing! I think it takes a very punctilious, organized, super-anal personality to get the most out of vinyl, whereas most music lovers are just ready to hit the load and play buttons and forget about the hardware. True? Yes, which is why I threw away all my LPs 14 years ago -But I have committed a few thousand $S and a lot of research, and hours of all your valued time on A'gon for advice- so I am now committed and ready to join the club, but with trepidation and a sense of realism that I am entering the lion's den. Sonic bliss of the digital kind is so easy - with vinyl you have to work really hard for the same auditory kicks per unit dollar/hour/joule expended. Almost like riding through lush countryside on a bike or a motor-bike. Who would choose the bike when the gradient is 20 or 30 degrees? A masochist, it seems. Hey, that's what makes life fun. Choosing the tough ride because the rewards are greater, in the final analysis. We'll see. Soon. Hey, the good part is that if the vinyl re-birth blows me clean through my living room window, I can sell the EMM gear and upgrade to an SME 30 and bring the APL Denon 3910 home for CDs and live happily ever after..........

Spring -- You needn't worry about becoming anal retentive/compulsive or having to struggle getting something ready to play. Allow me to adjust your attitude slightly:

When holding a record, it's a lot different internal feeling than holding a CD.

With a record, you feel you're touching a fragile, living thing, real music right there in your hands -- I mean you can actually see the loud and soft passages in the grooves, count the cuts, see how long they take -- all without reading anything! Whereas one CD looks pretty much like any other (except for the amount of blank space at the outside edge,) CD's don't hold real music -- just a set of blueprints for making sounds, but they no more contain music than a cookbook contains real food.

You can care about a record in a way you can't about a CD. You might find an LP that's been long neglectied, and just needs a little detergent and Last preservative to clean it up. Then a good turntable to unlock all the wonderful sound you can see inscribed on its black surface -- there's a certain excitement/anticipation you feel just as the diamond hits the lead-in groove -- Is it OK? What'll it sound like? Is it a good recording? etc. etc. I find that records are always begging to be played, while CD's seem to say "whatever".....but maybe that's just me.

Records engender respect/affection in a way CD's don't. Maybe it's that they're vulnerable or hard to replace/duplicate. I never had anyone offer to "burn" me an acetate copy! I think you're about to fall in love, and you just don't know it yet!

Oh, and a great thing about turntables: they don't have "play" buttons, and even better, they don't have "skip" buttons. No tampering with the playlist!

Nsgarch, Unfortunately, your reasoning resonates in me in ways almost mystical, but very persuasive - to the soul of an adherent to an old, tested and anchronistic theme - that of tradition and anti-modernity, that shuns convenience for the sake of purity, honesty and realism, despite the nuisance, work and effort involved. If it's better, then do it. If it makes the result a more soulfull and fulfilling experience, then it's right. It resonates because I have the same feeling for film/darkroom vs digital discs/computer that you have for CDs/LPs - I have some beautiful images on film, transferred into black and white silver halide prints with smelly, disgusting chemicals, sodden paper, hours of imersion in a tiny dark-room with carcinogens abounding, but hang defiantly and translucently, redolent of richness, majesty and realism, on walls in large oak frames, whereas their digital cousins sit anemically, thin, poor, 2-dimensional relatives, devoid of character, soul or life, in file upon file on a hard-drive of a computer, to stir nobody's soul...........but I still persist with digital, hpoing that, for the price of convenience I can conquer the medium. But haven't. Nowhere near. Wont happpen. But that's me creating. Music, I'm not creating. Just reproducing. Is it the same? Is the result similar? Will I hear the difference if you take away all the ritual, philosophy and tradition? That, Nsgarch, is my question, which you cant, and only I, will be able to answer. I asked the same question of myself when I sold my Leicas, 4 X 5 view cameras and 6 X 9, 6 X 6, 6 X 7 medium formats to use a single digital camera to take all their places for the sake of convenience. It failed. Will vinyl go the same route or is it indeed the holy grail?
I'll let you know................

Spring -- Well, I don't know about vinyl being the Holy Grail, I guess I just enjoy the chewing and tasting (the Ritual) of vinyl, rather than the "Wolfing It Down" of digital. And I do enjoy the sound -- which has a kind of delicacy or refinement (even on Rock music) that the best reproduced digital never seems to achieve.

Your comments on photography are not lost on me. In fact, when I was an architecture student at MIT in the 60's, I was a teaching assistant to Minor White in the Creative Photography Dept. where I was groomed to teach the Zone System. Once I owned everything in the Hassleblad catalog. And now I own a single Nikon digital. Sigh!!

I have to go now, Fatparrot is coming by to spin some records.

Neil

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Neil certainly covered a lot of the positive aspects of owning vinyl plus there are others. It is a lot of fun discovering older recordings which, in my opinion, are some of the best sonically and many of them are great performances by artists who have withstood the test of time. At least you can read the liner notes on an album where reading a CD requires me to nearly get a magnifying glass.

Playing vinyl is ritualistic but not necessarily anal. Set up surely is and cleaning LP's is mandatory. But playing them is another story. One gets very good at handling them and a quick wipe with a carbon fiber brush is all you need once they are placed on the table. Sure, you can make it much more than this but that's all it really takes. Developing good habits comes easily enough too. Don't forget a good light source.

Let us all know your first impressions and keep us advised of the upgrades that will surely happen. Most of all have fun.

Lot's of good comments here with which I agree, most particularly with Lugnut's closing:

Let us all know your first impressions and keep us advised of the upgrades that will surely happen. Most of all have fun.

It should be a fun re-exploration!

Any volunteers, familiar with the Origin live Illustrious tonearm (in a SOTA Sapphire V) willing to help me fine-tune the set-up? If there are such saintly A'goners, please e-mail me your phone number, so that I can call between 7-11 pm tonight. If you are out there, and willing, I will call at a time you choose and promise to ask just 2 questions, for maximum 10 minutes:).
Thanks again for all your help.
Set-up complete, but not fine-tuned. So no comments yet. Starting unpacking 7 pm, finished 12:15 am. Just like joining the army, first day of boot camp.

Request cancelled. The incredible Lugnut to the rescue. He has sent me photos, a very detailed explanation and a proposed plan of action to fix the VTA. Thank you, Patrick. You are amazing.......

Not amazing at all. Just been there and done that. Amazing is putting people in a suspended, near death state for surgery and bringing them back alive.

Wife: "I thought you bought a re-conditioned turntable" "I did" "Then why are you still building it, it's been nearly 7 hours?" "Because I have to get the VTA correct and I cant reach the screw, so I have to put it on blocks" She: "Then will we hear the damn thing play music?" Me: "Blissful music" I get the VTA OK, I think, thanks to Lugnut, then switch it on - no turn. Look closely: the belt has flown off, managed to breach the 1/16th inch clearance between the platter and plinth and is gone, gonzo, disapperaed under the platter. This platter has no guides, rim or anything to hold the 3-4 mm wide tiny belt - did the French design it?
You guys do this for fun? My wife has left (maybe for good after watching my imbecilic performance - especially after she looked at the spanking new EAR 824 and said "What's that new thing?" "That's part of the turntable" Why is it silver and the TT is wood? Wood is boring, so they jazzed it up" That is when she left - I think for a meeting - but maybe to see a Divorce lawyer - watching me fishing with a bent paper-clip for the 3 cent piece of plastic that separates me from blissful sound.........(of course, it only came with one belt)
The EMM pieces are silently staring at me, not having to say "We told you so, you idiot!!!!!!..........."

Springbok, buy her an HDTV. It's just like a pacifier and a 1 year old. She'll never bother you again, assuming you can put her in another room than your stereo stuff.

So the SOTA got damaged in shipping - motor assembly alignment off, pulley not level, so belt flies off. Both SOTA distributor and dealer very responsive and concerned and will fix it ASAP. But has to be shipped off again. Anyone try to fix a motor assembly themselves? Easy/hard? Meantime, I'm all set with phono stage, used LPs and raring to go. Cant wait more weeks - been about 2 months anyway - so I buy a Thorens 125 MkII with Shure cartridge (Viii) for a song on A'gon to quell the lust. It's playing now. Cripes: Vivid, organic, palpable, compelling, real, Alive!! I'd forgotten how good vinyl is - 14 years dulls the memory. It is just 3D instead of 2D - I guess a perfectly focussed, accurate 2D will always be inferior even to a slightly blurred, 3D picture - to use a visual analogy again. Well, that's what I hear on this 35 year old makeshift turntable arm and cartridge on a $7 piece of magic plastic. I've even temporally forgotten about the pain of the morrow - packing up the heavy SOTA or trying to dissemble and fix it. But the point is that the vinyl in my life has roared back with an impossible-to-ignore statement of intent, presence and even more promise. I owe you all for your encouragement.

Spring -- I don't own a SOTA, but have heard great things here on AgoN about the folks there. Before you send off your table, you might call and ask what they'd charge for setting up your arm/cartridge while they have it. I've heard they are willing to do that and are very good at it.

Denis,

This seems like a perfect opportunity to jump inside your table and do the repair yourself. Even though I have no experience with a SOTA I would venture a guess that the pulley and motor are an integral combination and that proper alignment is done by a simple adjustment to tilt the motor, thereby aligning the pulley. Certainly any number of us could walk you through cartridge installation by phone and I'd venture a guess that aligning the motor/pulley is a no-brainer in comparison. This would not only allow you to gain experience and get it up and running sooner, but also eliminate the risk of other damage through shipping.

Pat, I'll follow your advice. Sota faxed me a one page instruction page which isn't very helpful - although they did overnight me 2 belts gratis - and I cant reach Kirk as they're moving to WI. Anyone out there re-aligned the motor assembly?

Ok, I have just finished reading this thread from top to bottom and it has been a helluva story, but what gives? We need a follow-up!!!

As a digital guy who is eager to get rolling into the vinyl club, this story was made for somebody like me. A bunch of you guys really should take a bow for being fairly impartial, anecdotal, and really inspiring to Springbok. Man, this was a good read, and a great example of how hobbyists can often band together in order to help pull a guy through his unexplored part of the journey.

With that said, it is also a great break from a lot of other threads that are often polluted by absolutisms and mud-slinging.

So Springbok, please give us an update.

-Jake

You ready for this? The Sota Sapphire could not be fixed by me, so I had to ship it back. Kirk Bodinet (the owner) said the motor was so badly mis-aligned during transit that I couldn't have fixed it. After going to all the trouble and reading about the Cosmos, I decided to go for broke, especially since the Digital sound with the EMM gear was so good, and so I ordered a new Sota cosmos in mahogany. It arrived in 3 weeks, 3 days before the stipulated time and looked beautiful. Took forever to mount, because it has 3 pointed feet which have to be balanced by gravity on little shoes and inserted on plates. This is all on a cabinet that requires the wires to be blind elevated 3 feet and caught by a tongs behind the phono preamp. In mounting the armboard, one screw fell into the suspension and required 2 hours of using a headlight and very fine forceps to pull out. Done. Had to change VTA. Move table and 6 feet components to fit on shelf perfectly. Table worked great, vacuum sucked vigorously. Put on first LP - cherished Kleiber Beethoven 5th. Lifted cue device and stylus screeched across LP, audibly straining those Kharma drivers to spine-tingling cacophany............why? Because the tonearm lift device setscrew had gone - disappeared, lost somewhere in the damned space between the armboard and the suspension.Even though I never had cause to touch it. Didnt even know it was there. Called dealer - promptly over-nighted me an M4 secscrew. Didnt fit. far too big. Called OL in England - told "No, yours is the Mk I, it uses an M3, not an M4 - that's the new OL Illustrious arm." A machinist friend, despairing of my plight, cut me 6 M3s today and it fit but wouldnt screw in. Pitch must have been wrong. So I have this gorgeous turntable, unusable wirhout cuing device(because setting it up with wire placement, feet insertion, etc is a 2-3 hour job - and I'm not doing it 4 times - but dangerous to health of LP, stylus and speaker driver health - and now I'm waiting for a one penny M3 with correct pitch to be flown from England first to the dealer and then to me.
Contrast this experience with plug-n-play Digital set-up 10 minutes )and it's a mind-numbing venture in frustration, cursed expletives and questioning of my sanity. But the bright side: The dealer (Jay at Audio Revelation), owner (Kirk Bodinet) and OL's Mark have all been totally responsive, understanding and responsible and shipped me evey missing/broken part over-night at no charge. Lack of support from them would have had me send the whole kaboodle back to England/Chicago/San Diego and happily clasp my CDs to my chest and ears for ever, never to darken my mood again. But having started this quirky journey, it must be finished to determine the final aural result - worth it or not? The only next act in this Russian (actually the Russian input from Sergeui in the form of Indra i/cs has been steadfast througout this play )drama that can occur - and dont think I haven't thought of it - is that the M3 setscrew from OL wont fit because the thread may have been stripped from endless trying wrong-sized 3 and 4 screws, in which case the toneram sans mounted Shelter 901, will be back on its way to California for Jay to figure out.......
You vinyl junkies may regard this all as a day's (actually, 6 weeks) work in the tweaking pleasures in setting up the vinyl miracle maker, but right now I'm ready to jump back into digital and never have a platter, VTA, tonearm or stylus-force guage, 3 mm setcsrew with variable pitch or nuances of setting the variable input EAR 824's mm sized controls at the back of the unit set correctly, darken my listening room doorway ever again...........but, like the obstinate, insane, obdurate soul that both old and determined new vinyl "victims" are, I will see it throgh to the end. But the expected bar of listening reward gets higher with each hitch and had better be sky-high/close to orgiastic after all this...........)
Sorry you asked, Rottenclam?

P.S. Anyone working with a Sota turntable, have a fine mesh net between the working space and the gap between armboard and hole in the side of the plinth to catch errant miscroscopic screws!) And if Jay hadn't been so good, I would tell you to buy your vinyl rig locally and have the dealer get the migraine, chest pain and belly cramps by setting it up in-toto in your house. But that seems against the ethic of vinyl voodoo - the pain is part of the rites.......)
Now the final follow-up will be whether the end justified the perilous journey.

Wow, now I kinda am sorry I asked. What a royal pain in the ass! And yeah, I hear you with wanting to tear your hair out after putting the cash down, waiting, and then doing the setup as best you can; only to find that the stumbling blocks are of the most mind-numbing variety. Man, I would probably go crawl into a bottle or something after those kind of (mis)adventures.

Still, your commitment is really admirable. I think putting the setup onus on the local dealer is the way to go, at least as a newbie. You seem to have the patience of Job though, so the end to your journey should be quite rewarding. Good luck and keep us informed.

-Jake

That's my problem, Viridian, I never take good advice!

Patience you must have grasshopper. Worthwhile is never easy.

Springbok10, that's what you get for getting your table before I got mine! Did you get a refurbished table or a brand new one?

You get all the fun. When my Cosmos arrives it will be my third Sota table and I have never experienced all the fun you had.

Once all is said and done it will easily out perform the Rega, but it will take a while top get everything just right. I wish there were someone close by who could help you with some of the issues you are facing.

Are you done with the fine mesh net yet?

Jeez, Nrchy, you must be so bored. Fine mesh net? No, I decided to hang the sota from the ceiling from its dainty shoes and install everything upside down and wear a magnetic suit. Fool-proof. And, if the M3 from OL doesnt fit the mashed up (presumably) thread, I'm going to shoot a rivet in.........
any more questions?

Springbok10, The trials and tribulation are going to leave you as one seasoned TT guy IMHO. I believe your going to love the EAR gear but, isn't an 824 a valve microphone amp? Do you mean a 834P or..? Anyway, this is one of the best threads I seen in a long time and I'm not referring to the lost screws and all. I don't find joy in others suffering.
The suspense is killing me though. While the rest of the planet is watching reality TV we are all hanging on here with you. I find our choice of entertainment so much more satisfying. Best wishes from a guy who never gave up his Lp12 since '83 but has done most other foolish things once or maybe twice. And the lost screws are countless. Enjoy!

Did I say 824? Must have been a typo. I meant EAR 324. I really do appreciate all the support from all of you in this quest for good vinyl sound.

Opps! Well of course the EAR324! Excellent choice. Cheers!

OK, so almost 4 months after my initial post, asking for help, it's done. So that you dont have to read the whole 9 yards again, I wanted to achieve sonic "parity" with the EMM set-up on vinyl, starting from scratch. The set up is Kharma 3.2s, Atma-Sphere MP-1, A-S MA 2.2, EMM DCC2, EMM CDSD, PAD Dominus and Stealth Indra i'cs, s/cs and Electraglide UK II PCs - vinyl is Sota Cosmos III with vacuum pump, EAR 324, Shelter 901, OL Illustrious arm.
It now works - all screws found, reattached.
Result: Worth months of chaos, fussing, cursing, fiddling?
Yes. Difference: Vinyl more organic, palpable, visceral, real. The digital is just that few % more sterile - marginal, but factual (to my ears and psyche) Sound as good as EMM? Yes. Better? Yes. Worth the hassle? To me, yes, to my wife (who has an excellent ear)- No, because she doesnt mind listening to music in another room or through a slight, sanitizing, cleaning, but marginally eviscerating filter because of the convenience factor.
So, to those of you wondering whether to go this route if you already have a superb digital set-up (as the EMM undoubtedly is), the answer is: Be prepared to be frustrated, annoyed, irritated and pay 200% attention to tweaks and fiddling, design quirks that need you to be of an engineering mindset, to clean every speck of dust and go through an absurd tedium of adjusting, inspection and manipulation. But if the real thing is what you want - if you want to feel that the music is in your room, do it - if you dont mind the slight filter factor - that's how I can best describe the difference - then don't.
This final follow-up is to thank you all for your input. You are an incredibly helpful lot and I really appreciate the encouragement to pursue this "totally illogical journey" as a normal person like my wife would put it.
But we're not "normal", as anyone who is of a non-audiophile mindset would agree, looking just at the price-tag of a 1 meter set of cable............

Denis,

I'm so thrilled. Keep in mind that everything will just get better as the bits and pieces break in. During this period you will grow accustomed to whatever cleaning and handling procedures you settle on and they will become second nature. Yeah, you have to get up and flip the darn things every 15 to 20 minutes but you won't mind. The greatest gift of all is that you now can concentrate on the best recordings of whatever fomat it is found on. The best of both worlds, indeed. Again, I'm very happy for you. Just watch out for the upgrade path. He he.

Denis,
Glad to hear you're finally up and running, and achieving the kind of results you were hoping for. Your summary of the differences between analog and digital matches my experience (and that of many others) exactly.

As Cello said, much of the vinyl hassle will become second nature. That upgrade path he warned about is also there. If you decide to follow it be assured that even more lifelike presentation is possible. Whether you do or not, enjoy the tunes!

Doug

Thanks Pat & Doug. I hope to delay the upgrade path as long as possible............