Need to re-discover analog - please help


Like the short-sighted, lazy, modern moron that I am, I threw away all my LPs and turntable when I got hooked on my first decent CDP, a Kinergetics Platinum KD-40, 15 years ago. Because it was easier to take care of CDs. Now, my mother who was a musician, and had a classical collection of about 200 really absolutely great recordings, collected from the 1940s til the 80s, has left me her collection. They just have to be preserved, played and savored. I need an analog set-up that will a) do them justice and b) not sound noticeably "worse" compared to the digital set-up I am now used to. My analog set-up that I discarded (I know, I know.........please dont rub it in, what's done is done.) was a Denon 103D and Sony PS-800 linear tracking TT and also a Kenwood marble platter with SME tone-arm and also Denon 103 D cartridge and circa 1980 PS Audio MC phono stage.
The present system, to which must now obligatorily be added a turntable: EMM DCC2/CDSD; Atma-Sphere Line-stage MP-1 MkII, Atma-Sphere MA 2.2 modified (27 tubes each); Kharma 3.2; Indra Stealth i/cs; PAD Dominus i/cs and S/Cs (Rev C & B).

I tried MM cartridges before - Dynavector,Ortofon,Shure V15 iv - but only liked the MC Denon 103D - so would prefer that MC "sound".

I have not kept up with the analog market, nor new equipment, and am totally ignorant about the components but would greatly appreciate input as to what TT, tone-arm, cartridge and phono preamp to get that would neither bankrupt me nor do the wonderful collection my mother left me a disservice, nor my ear that is now spoiled by the pretty "good" digital, ancillary set-up I have. Nor, obviously, sound "inferior" to the CDs:)

What sort of a budget am I looking at to keep the system within the overall quality of the associated equipment that I have, without going crazy, since i will still mostly be listening to CDs (unless i get totally hooked and go bonkers..........)?

I listen to classical 90% of the time and 95% of her collection is classical.

As always, I appreciate your advice.
springbok10

Showing 10 responses by nsgarch

"The present system, to which must now obligatorily be added a turntable: EMM DCC2/CDSD; Atma-Sphere Line-stage MP-1 MkII, Atma-Sphere MA 2.2 modified (27 tubes each); Kharma 3.2; Indra Stealth i/cs; PAD Dominus i/cs and S/Cs (Rev C & B)."

1.) Well, you've spilled the beans and you're not gettin' away for just a couple thousand bucks!
2.) And, if you DO spend the money necessary to add analog components commensurate with the quality of the rest of your system, you WILL
3.) "get totally hooked and go bonkers.........."
4.) and just who do you think you're kidding calling your digital set-up "ancillary"?

OK

TURNTABLE: Rockport Sirius, Goldmund Reference (if you can find one), and if you want to "cheap out," then the big SME, VPI, Simon Yorke or Walker Procenium.

TONEARM: (depending on TT of course) SME V, TriPlanar, Air Tangent or Eminent Technology (if you like messing with air pumps -- might as well get an aquarium while you're at it!) the Graham 2.2 (or new Phantom), Morch. Unipivot TA's are fine but in my opinion they limit your choice of cartridges (and I know that remark will raise a stink!)

CARTRIDGES: (in no particular order) Allaerts Finish, Transfiguration W (I own one) vdH Colibri or Black Beauty Special x, Magic Diamond (this years' darling), ZYX Universe, Lyra Titan. The Lyra and Transfig have the most advanced motor-generator design. Either from personal experience, or review, these are all snappy cartridges and would bring out the best in your existing system.

PHONO CABLES: PAD, definitely! I can only afford Venustas, but you obviously have a Dominus budget!

PHONO PREAMP: That's a toughie. You're already toobed-out, so it wouldn't hurt to get a really great SS step up device. I guess you'd have to work this choice back and forth with your choice of cartridge. I don't recommend step up transformers though. They were fine once upon a time, but now cartridges have improved beyond the ability of a transformer to keep up with their (the cartridges') transient response. (Some may disagree with me.) I have a Mark Levinson 25s, and I'm not tellin' ya where I live! BTW if your preamp has XLR inputs, I'd definitely suggest getting a phono preamp with XLR ins and outs. Phono cartridges are inherently balanced output devices, so why not!? (and PAD can make you some really nice XLR phono cables.) Of current offerings, well, let's not discuss the Boulder. I'm sure it's great but I never heard one, and besides, you WERE planning to buy a few more records in addition to the ones your Mom left, no? I would check out the Manley, Tom Evans Groove or EAR for starters, and if one of those doesn't do it for you, try the other Stereophile Class A units.

AUTOMATIC VACUUM RECORD CLEANING MACHINE: You pick one.

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Sorry Springbok10, but you must remember Audiophile Kosmik Roole #1 which is:

"You'll never be content, even for a moment, until all your equipment is of the same caliber."

And which contentment is immediately interrupted by Audiophile Kosmik Kweschun #1 which is:

"What if I just upgrade the . . . . . . . . . . . .?"

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Springbok10, I do not have all the history at my fingertips but it took a long time for home audio to adopt what the pro world (of necessity due to long cable runs) had used for years. The longstanding prevalence of single ended connection probably had somthing to do with the dominance of a few manufacturers (RCA? connectors) in the early home entertainment industry of the 50's.

The market for phono equipment dropped off drastically after the introduction of CD's in the early eighties. Many of the turntables of that time even came with hardwired RCA phono cables installed! All this was a good 10+ years before the home audio industry began offering balanced connections -- at first just on the better brands like Audio Research, Mark Levinson, etc.

Nobody was really paying much attention to developing new and better phono preamps until (relatively) recently. And let's face it, it's a small market at best. That means that a.) the prices are going to be disproportionately high due to so few units sold, and b.) manufacturers want to capture the largest number of potential customers in that already small market. Since most of the market (still) owns single ended equipment, the designs being produced are largely single ended. But I see that beginning to change.

As for the ones you mention, I honestly don't remember. I'm pretty sure the Manley does, but what you mainly get for all that extra money is a versatility that you probably won't require, since you're only going to be using one cartridge (I presume?) I'm certain the Audio Research phono preamp offers balanced ins and outs (and don't discount that one, it's supposedly pretty terrific -- but that's just what I read, I haven't heard their latest).

If I didn't have my beloved ML 25S, I might consider a tube unit for my all SS system. In your case, as I mentioned earlier, I think a great SS unit (like the TE Groove+) would compliment your system beautifully. Additionally, it could be left running all the time, which for that kind of device guarantees performance stability. Of course, you could leave a tube phono preamp on 24/7 but you don't need that!

The Whest has gotten great press, but like new computer software, I won't buy an audio component until it's been in the market a couple of years. (No beta-testing for me!) I'm also no fan of the battery powered units. Not because they're battery powered -- that's a great idea -- but rather because the production cost savings gained by the elimination of the power supply have apparently not (yet) gone into making a top notch battery powered phono preamp, if you get my drift . . . . . . . . . . .

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Springbok10 -- I'm glad someone else suggested a Helicon, and I suggest you compare it to the only other (current) cartridge that can match it technologically, the Transfiguration Temper W. In fact you can read an excellent review of those two plus the Audio Techne in the June 2003 Stereophile.

I think adding a phonostage to the MP-1 is a terrific idea, however, can it be a high gain MC phonostage, or will you need a step-up transformer as well?
Springbok, as I think I mentioned earlier, a MC cartridge has an inherently balanced output due to its electro-mechanical design configuration. What a pity to stifle its output (to say nothing about losing the advantage of better noise and hum rejection) by running it through single ended interconnects and phono preamp when you have such a marvelous balanced amp and preamp already.

Especially With a system like yours, the source is truly everything. Skimp on the TT, the TA, and finally (for now anyway) even the cartridge, if you have to, but invest in a great (probably expensive) balanced phono preamp.
Lugnut -- I may not have been clear: I wasn't referring to necessarily less noise/hum in the phono preamp itself. (My single ended unit is as "quiet as a chair.") I was referring to the noise/hum picked up by single ended interconnects vs. balanced interconnects. Particularly the run between the tonearm and the phono preamp; which is where most such problems begin.

Of course, having balanced inputs generally results in a better signal-to-noise ratio within the component as well.

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Spring -- I'm sure your EMM sounds pretty great (for a digital device!) however I wouldn't expect much in the way of good analog sonics until the cartridge has broken in for at least 150 hours; great sonics will take 200-250 hours. If anyone (including the manufacturer) says less, their blowing smoke up your . . . . . . And this assumes correct arm/cartridge set-up and (after break in) your finding the optimum cartridge loading (which based on the 901's 15 ohm coil resistance should be 325 ohms +/_ 50%) Until sufficiently broken in, expect the sound to be bright/thin, maybe a little grainy, with not much bass (even with the above-mentioned proper setting of SRA and load.) So don't do a lot of fiddling around until you know you have enough mileage on it. Premature tweaking is a mistake a lot of folks make. I can't imagine how those magazine people can write cartridges reviews with a straight face!

If you want to speed up the break in period, I suggest you by the Cardas sweep record, which has locked white noise grooves, and just let it run 24 hours a day for a week (when you're not actually playing records that is!) No need to fire up the rest of the system while running the Cardas record, but it's good for it if you want to.

Otherwise, averaging 2.5 hr/day of normal playing time, you're looking at over three months. Personally, I couldn't wait that long! Just as a side note: I bought a Transfiguration Temper W exactly two months ago, and been away two weeks during that period. The specs/instructions say 30 hours break-in. Yeah, right! I figure after 50 days, I've put around 80 hours on it (mostly just playing records) which I calculate by counting the number of records played times 35 minutes. And one can just now begin to hear it starting to go through it's metamorphosis into a really high-end device. I know setup is perfect, and load is set for its calculated optimum of 150 ohms. Recently, over a period of two or three days, the image/soundstage became solid and convincing, bass got tight, lyrics (transient response) became effortlessly intelligible, etc. Now I can only wait and listen before attempting any further refinements.

Have fun!

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Spring -- You needn't worry about becoming anal retentive/compulsive or having to struggle getting something ready to play. Allow me to adjust your attitude slightly:

When holding a record, it's a lot different internal feeling than holding a CD.

With a record, you feel you're touching a fragile, living thing, real music right there in your hands -- I mean you can actually see the loud and soft passages in the grooves, count the cuts, see how long they take -- all without reading anything! Whereas one CD looks pretty much like any other (except for the amount of blank space at the outside edge,) CD's don't hold real music -- just a set of blueprints for making sounds, but they no more contain music than a cookbook contains real food.

You can care about a record in a way you can't about a CD. You might find an LP that's been long neglectied, and just needs a little detergent and Last preservative to clean it up. Then a good turntable to unlock all the wonderful sound you can see inscribed on its black surface -- there's a certain excitement/anticipation you feel just as the diamond hits the lead-in groove -- Is it OK? What'll it sound like? Is it a good recording? etc. etc. I find that records are always begging to be played, while CD's seem to say "whatever".....but maybe that's just me.

Records engender respect/affection in a way CD's don't. Maybe it's that they're vulnerable or hard to replace/duplicate. I never had anyone offer to "burn" me an acetate copy! I think you're about to fall in love, and you just don't know it yet!

Oh, and a great thing about turntables: they don't have "play" buttons, and even better, they don't have "skip" buttons. No tampering with the playlist!
Spring -- Well, I don't know about vinyl being the Holy Grail, I guess I just enjoy the chewing and tasting (the Ritual) of vinyl, rather than the "Wolfing It Down" of digital. And I do enjoy the sound -- which has a kind of delicacy or refinement (even on Rock music) that the best reproduced digital never seems to achieve.

Your comments on photography are not lost on me. In fact, when I was an architecture student at MIT in the 60's, I was a teaching assistant to Minor White in the Creative Photography Dept. where I was groomed to teach the Zone System. Once I owned everything in the Hassleblad catalog. And now I own a single Nikon digital. Sigh!!

I have to go now, Fatparrot is coming by to spin some records.

Neil

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Spring -- I don't own a SOTA, but have heard great things here on AgoN about the folks there. Before you send off your table, you might call and ask what they'd charge for setting up your arm/cartridge while they have it. I've heard they are willing to do that and are very good at it.