My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
My 10 yr. old Lampazator DAC still to me sounds as good as anything i have heard in the 3-10k price range. Every year i try the so called latest and greatest within the price range given and not one DAC has sounded better. I can afford to pay more than 10k but honestly can not justify paying more than 10k for a DAC. |
I’m not buying that stupidity. I told a friend of mine behind closed doors that we are at the mercy of the streaming services. How can you ask a DAC to make you vodka or tequila if all you’re putting in it are grapes? It can’t...all it can do is make you wine that might be a little bitter or sweeter depending on the grapes but it’s STILL WINE. The law of diminishing returns is huge with DACs probably even more than other components. Don't go out spending a zillion dollars on DACs. I own two of the best dacs so my opinion has a ton of weight. Find something balanced for your system and don't look back. Switching dacs is as stupid as trading in your car in each year for the same model over and over. Dumb move. |
I don't believe much of what anyone says......he he. However, there is also a third person on the Whats Best that preferred the Soulution over the MSB......a trend? What I would like is an A/B with the Select, Vivaldi, all out Ares Cerat, all out tweaked Lampy, monster TotalDAC, Soulution, Wadax Reference and whatever else is the "best". Then I would like to see the best of the best A/Bed with the lesser Gods like the Musetec, etc. to see how much most of us could buy. I mean, how many people buy those top tiered DACs? Jay, will you do this for me? The Wadax is a mere pocket change $145K. Robert Harley thinks its the cat's meow. |
Great questions Viber. 👍 As a musician I am listening for many of the same things you are. With live music there are certain subtle harmonics and overtones that when reproduced properly give music life. Spatial ques and the like also help bring you "there". (One also has to have a system capable of reproducing those queues harmonics and overtones as well and that is part of our audiophile journey) Those properties jumped out at me right away on DAC 1 in video 1. As a drummer I like a healthy a middle ground between tight and loose skins. There’s a sense of power you get thru those deep overtones that give a solid foundation to build the rest of the music on. You can engineer some of that back once you edit the tracks but it’s not the same. Bonzo did it so right back in the early days of Zeppelin. His drumming has such a great feel of raw power and yet he is also amazingly elegant in many of the things he does. There have been many outstanding drummers thru the decades but John Bonham is still the GOAT and IMO it’s not even close. |
I wanted to respond to Jay’s question regarding my preference of the Aida II over the Alexx V -- recognizing it is a digression from the thrust of this thread currently. While I am somewhat of an audiophile and do actually get a kick (from time to time) listening to how equipment impacts the sound rather than listening to the music, I primarily listen for personal enjoyment. There are three selections I typically choose to "test" a system: Peggy Lee’s "Is That All There Is", Ludovico Einaudi’s "Life" (from his album "In a Time Lapse"), and Led Zepplin’s "Dazed and Confused". Each was streamed from Tidal. The other equipment was generally [for Aida II] Audio Research preamp and power amps; DCS stack; cabling unknow, but obviously high quality and [for Alexx V] Spectral for preamp and power amps; DCS stack; Transparent Audio cabling. I listened to the Alexx V recently at a high-end audio store. The sound which I heard was a perfect rendition, with extraordinary definition. I marveled at the clarity. My thought was that, if one wanted to perform an autopsy on a performance, this was the speaker (and associated electronics) to utilize. I heard the Aida II at the most recent AXPONA. Dazed and Confused was the last track played. I can say without hesitation, that song/music/performance was the greatest audio experience of my life. Led Zepplin was there, live, and playing their hearts out -- just for me. When the last note played, I was standing there silent and then just exclaimed "Holy crap!!" Now how could it be ever better than that? |
I've gone back and forth a number of times on just song 1. (No song 2 at all) Once again to my ears these are very different presentations. I've listened to each DAC maybe 7 or 8 times in different sections of the Hanne Boel music. My brain now hurts. 😄😄😄 I will have to return to Jay's channel for more listening later today. |
chazzzy, As a drummer, you are more familiar with lower freq sounds than I. Do you also play HF percussion--cymbals, triangles? How about midrange instruments like wood block, vibraphone? You probably favor tight skins on your drums which obviously create tighter, less distorted sound. My former orchestra on a tight budget had an old deep bass drum that was boomy and loosy-doosy. My overall impression of demo 2 is akin to very slightly loose skin, which creates more quantitative dynamics but less tightness and accuracy. Let's see what you find on video 2. On my violin, I am more middle of the road with my shorter bridge. A tall bridge creates too much tightness and tension in the strings, which requires more pressure from both hands to get a free, natural sound. |
Jonathan Valin prefers the Soulution DAC over the MSB Reference.....and just the other day a person posted on What's Best that he had both in his house at the same time and preferred the Soulution. "All I can say is in the context of my system the 760 was much better overall ( better dynamics, better resolution, similar tonality…fuller sound overall). The difference was bigger with lower volumes and I dont use a dedicated preamp, so maybe the output stage explains some part, but even at higher volumes the soulution was better." Of course, using a $30K+ preamp plus another $5K cable in the chain might turn the tide.....and maybe not. It never ends......why spend so much money on something that will be outdated soon? I wonder how good the $3300 Musetec DAC is compared to the $72K Soulution.....hmmmmmm. |
Video 2 is more difficult for me to decide. This AM I listened on my work PC laptop which has a more tinny, bass deficient sound than my home iMac desktop. I just listened to the iMac. For the male voice, I listened at 5:26 and 12:39 for demo 1 and 2, respectively. For the female voice, 1:29 and 9:23. Both voices are on the husky, dark side compared to many other male/female voices. With the lighter PC sound, again I felt that demo 1 was more focused and lean than demo 2. I agree with golfnutz's description that demo 2 has more tonal density, which many reviewers would alternately describe as having more saturated colors, and I describe as warmer. But on my bassier iMac, I had more trouble telling differences. The female I could tell had the same relative difference between demo 1 and 2 as on the PC, but after many back and forth trials, I could barely hear a difference on the male voice. Blinded, I would probably give up in being able to hear a difference on the male voice using the iMac. This confirms how I find it much easier to discern HF differences between components than lower freq. On video 1, the abundant HF content of the music let me more easily zero in on the differences. Jay, if I can't get the system to register my vote, put me down for demo 1 again for video 2. |
@grey9hound If you want to hear good bass guitar, you should try this song out - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfjNpgZ4C5Q Needs to be listen with the CD version to really feel the bass. |
Here’s a little background on the XLF for those of you who might be curious https://youtu.be/AvQlGqzAbf8 |
First time I ever actually listened with decent headphones and my Audioengine D1 Dac/headphone amp. Personally, when D2 started I really liked the sound of the solo drums better, but once the music started I found D2 to sound generally more steely on the vocals and background instruments. So my preference would be D1 in this particular system. |
I played Private Investigations from the YT VEVO video through my MSB DAC to try and get a point of reference. Based on what I heard, DAC #2 seemed to line up more with how my DAC sounded (many generations older than Jay's DAC). I thought both DAC's sounded pretty good, but I felt DAC #2 had more Tonal Density, and better definition on the outer edges of the Soundstage. |
jmeyers, Even though we have different preferences, I find your comments objectively accurate, truthful and useful. Although I have never heard the Alexx V or SF speakers, from what I have read, SF has a warm personality and Wilson goes for clarity/detail. Likewise, I hear demo 2 as analogous to SF, and demo 1 as analogous to Alexx, but with much smaller differences than the two speakers. |
rh67, I agree that since the differences between demo 1 and 2 are small, a change of cables could make demo 2 sound like demo 1 and reverse our preferences. I think Jay is utilizing our comments to help him decide which dac to keep, only because he needs to be prudent, financially. Before he sells one of them, he should experiment with different cables, if he hasn't done so already. |
chazzzy, No, I am still with you about demo 1 being best for me, for its clarity, detail, focus. I merely speculated that the greater bloom and dynamics of demo 2 could also be rephrased by saying demo 1 is a little compressed by comparison. In other areas of audio, I have seen lots of compression in later releases of old Columbia LP's. Bass and dynamics are compressed mainly, so HF are more dominant. The body of trumpets is reduced, making the trumpets "spit" more on those compressed LP's. These are gross effects, and the compression I hear in demo 1 is MUCH less, very subtle. To briefly digress a little, another example is classic tube sound vs solid state. A low powered tube amp often has explosive dynamics and fullness, whereby a SS amp sounds pinched by comparison. I never understood why this is the case, which many people note. Possibly the increased dynamics and fullness of tubes and tubelike SS amps is a manifestation of a particular type of distortion. Often, rolled off HF enables toleration of higher SPL's to give the appearance of greater dynamics. Today's great SS amps are not compressed, or maybe they still are by comparison to great tube amps. Whatever the reasons, I still prefer the clarity, detail of SS amps, but I am honestly bothered by the dichotomy. Very dynamic amps seem to sacrifice delicacy of detail. I liken demo 2 to a very slightly more dynamic component which sacrifices a little delicacy of detail. It took several hearings for me to conclude this. As Jay said, this shootout is quite challenging. |
In the recording industry Demo 2 DAC i believe would be called a little dirty a trait sought after for rock to hard rock. This is not a bad thing. Each DAC with a cable change could have a different personality from what we hear in the videos. Demo 2 could sound like Demo 1 with a cable change and vice versa. With DAC's at these performance levels it's so important that each component is matched to another component to get the desired results one desires. |
I am going to depart from my colleague Viper on Dac #1. He seems to have been swayed by the masses and joined the Dac #2 crowd. On the guitar piece I hear more air around each instrument and voice. Now that could be due to an inferiror clock leading to less information and detail which gives the appearance of a deeper soundstage. I don’t think that’s the case though because I also hear more subtle detail and separation thru Dac #1. During simultaneous parts voice and guitar remain distinct and clear. On Dac #2 during the same section there’s a slight blurring or muffled’ness when voice and guitar play their parts simultaneously. There is much less separation and air around each player in the musical piece as interpreted by Dac #2 as well as less detail. Once again to my ears Dac #1 is a very clear winner in a different section of the video. |
I am embarrassed to state this publicly, but I could not find where I am supposed to cast my vote for the DAC I preferred. Consequently, let me say here that I definitely preferred #2 over #1. That said, now let me rile some feathers by stating that, for me, this experience was similar to when I heard the Wilson Alexx V vs the Sonus Faber Aria II. The Aria II affected me (in a most positive sense) in a way that the Alexx V could not. |
No I haven’t heard either, or the msb discrete. But they’re (discrete and Bartok) in the price range I’ll be looking down the road and are probably the two manufacturers I’m most interested in. That’s why I’m so keen about this shootout. I’ve heard both brands have a house sound that transcends the models, so even tho this shootout has neither of the exact dacs in my range, still incredibly useful and probably the most relevant heas2head I’ll be able to hear. Rossini is above where I’d want to spend for this system. Realistically it will be very difficult for me to compare dcs to msb in my system or even at a dealer bc none near me and dunno if there even are any dealers that sell both brands. Probably there are but I haven’t seen who that might be Edit: in my post above I said “if Rossini beats Bartok” but I meant “if Rossini beats msb reference” (for me in WC’s shootout) |
I don’t think anyone really knows which video is which for sure. I have deduced that WC prefers dcs to msb by stuff he has said on videos or written. And usually our tastes are similar, so since I find #2 so much better than #1, it leads me to think #2 may be dcs. All that said, if #2 is msb that won’t bother me at all. I’ll simply be happy to know which I prefer. I’m actually kinda hoping #2 is msb because the msb discrete dac is less expensive than dcs Bartok. On other hand if msb reference beats the much less expensive Rossini maybe that doesn’t tell me as much as if Rossini beats Bartok (which would be a more definitive statement on preferred house sound given the big msrp difference) - ie if Rossini at half price beats reference that’s a safer leap for me to assume I’ll prefer Bartok to discrete. Will try to compare them directly of course, but this great starting point |
Short excerpts--8:50 on demo 1, 17:50 on demo 2. Small differences, took me several times back and forth to realize. Again, I hear demo 2 as more dynamic, demo 1 compressed by comparison. The greater focus and snap I hear on demo 1 may be an artifact caused by compression. This raises the issue of whether we are hearing just the different conversion technologies, or superimposed internal Rossini/MSB preamp stages. Since I prefer direct without any added preamp stages, I suggest that after this exercise is done, it would be nice to A/B just the dac's direct, using a transparent passive preamp, to really tell what's what. Since Jay doesn't have a passive preamp (mrdecibel, we need to use your Luminous passive preamp, lol), an alternate plan would be to use the fixed outputs of both Rossini and MSB, if they are available, feeding the same outboard preamp stage (Pandora or whatever). Another wild guess--the slight compression of demo 1 is from the cheaper Rossini electronics; the more expensive electronics of the MSB gives greater dynamics in demo 2. Kinda ridiculous to call the Rossini a cheap, budget component with compromises. They are both expensive, and should have any problems solved. I remember Jay said that the Rossini was audibly inferior to the Vivaldi. Maybe the Vivaldi has superior gain stage electronics. A fairer matchup might have been Vivaldi and MSB, but I am still thankful for all the effort Jay has done, since nobody is funding his great R & D. |
Listened again. Bass is muddy in demo #1, song 1. Marimba or vibraphone in song 2 is muddy/jumbled with demo #1, clean and clear with demo #2. Demo #2 sounds like I’m sitting right in the middle of the performance. Demo #1 sounds like the performance is playing around the corner in another room, through an open door. I’ll take demo #2, final answer, as to first video. I'll predict that demo #1 is msb; demo #2 is dcs. |
jays_audio_lab OP4,135 posts06-18-2021 6:16amNow it’s a matter of knowing which is which... Heads might roll on the floor once you find out 😂 Yup. People tend to assume that MSB is known for an organic but softer possibly less detailed presentation of music and that DAC #2 is MSB. MSB is actually DAC #1 and dCS is DAC #2 |
"159 voted so far and 69% are leaning towards demonstration 2. Is the entire world correct for choosing #1 or is the minority of 31% correct?" WC, did you mean to say "...for choosing #2..."? I think there will not be any "correct" at the end of the day, because "correct" for each person is based upon their preferences. I think that, if anything, it shows which presentation the majority of the folks lean towards, and which presentation is in the minority. Dave |
In answer to WC, both are correct. Personal preference, whatever one likes better. These are two mainstream components, both of high regard, so no wrong answers. Now if you had a third choice that was bright as hell and sounded like sh**t, that third option would probably only get one very enthusiastic vote (and demo #1 one less vote). |
chazzzy, I also agree with what you said, "it feels like DAC #2 is giving me it's interpretation of live music where DAC #1 is giving helping a look into the actual intended recording." More generally, this is why I favor lack of coloration and advocate clarity/transparency in electronics. Live music is the reality and ultimately the standard by which we judge systems. I don't want the component superimposing its own "musicality" or "interpretation" on the real music. Doing so leads to veiling and loss of real musical information. Some people want to round off the revealing tweeter of the XLF, but I want to hear it in its full glory, such as with Demo #1. |
chazzzy, It is nice that we hear the same things. Your experience as a drummer, and my experience as a violinist show that we both know live music. It doesn't matter that you pay more attention to the quality of bass, and I listen more to HF. I have always said that electrons don't favor either bass or HF. If a component is revealing and truthful, both bass and HF will be clear. Bass will be tight and crisp, and HF the same. Actually, even bass instruments have lots of higher harmonic overtones, so the perception of tight bass may be related to the accurate rendition of the higher freq overtones. So we agree that demo #1 is the truth. Have you compared Rossini to Bartok? People are entitled to their subjective preferences, but the important thing here is that they should agree on objective descriptions of the sound. That makes forums informative if everyone speaks the same language. So I am confused by rh67's preference for #1. At first, he said, "Demo 1 was more natural with a laid back feeling." Then he reversed himself and said, "Demo 1 is clear and articulate, Demo 2 not quite as clear with maybe a touch of distortion which can give the impression of extended highs and crispness." To me, "laid back" is the opposite of "clear and articulate." Since these two demos don't show vast differences, it is understandable that we may change our minds with further listening. Jay may even entertain tricking us by making a 4th video with 3 demos, 2 of which are identical. This would confound the people who boldly say that one blows away the other. What fun. Thanks, Jay. |
@rh67 Some background. At the beginning of the year I bought a pair of Focal Utopia headphones for late night listening. They were so good I started a Jay’like gearhead upgrade path. I considered the Bartok and nearly bought it. I did extended listening on it and thought that as a pure DAC it was quite good. To me it presented a relaxed organic presentation not lacking in detail. The one aspect that fell short though was the headphone amp. Where the DAC might have been an 8.5 or 9 in it’s class, IMO the headamp was merely a competent 6.5ish . I ended up buying a Pathos Inpol Ear headphone amp and upgrading my streamer to an Aurender N20. I really like my system and think I made the right choice, but to me the Bartok as a DAC did not lack. Here we are today. The Rossini, possibly one of the most popular DACs in any class and MSB considered by many the #1 DAC maker. I did not expect a clear winner, just a difference in presentation, but so far to my ears DAC #1 is clearly better. Better at reproducing transients, leading edge attack, spacial queues, air around voices and instruments and to my ears just the less colored more accurate of the 2. Along with everything else DAC #1 also has a beautifully exquisite musical presentation. By itself either DAC would sound quite good, but to my ears when a/b’d the faults of the lesser become quite clear. This is a real surprise to me and a very good lesson. |
chazzzy007 I agree with you and why i mentioned is Demo 2 true to the recording? Demo 1 is clear and articulate, Demo 2 not quite as clear with maybe a touch of distortion which can give the impression of extended highs and crispness. The comparison between these DAC's is very unique the sound is so different between the two. |
@benzman: There is some truth to what you’re saying and i know exactly what you’re referring to. I know what caused some of what you are picking up but that will be a topic for a future video. Let’s just say I’ve already warned you all about this. We are all learning each day and i will share some DOs and DONTs that I've learned with some of my components. One cool fact i can share with you is that the best thing so far about the XLF is that you can easily hear when something resulted in less bass. You can literally plug your ears and the speaker will still tell you if the bass went backwards or forward because you will feel it in your chest. If you don't feel it then you know you lost bass and that is absolutely incredible. |
@chazzy: As of right now, you have articulated things extremely well. I might have to go back to the videos myself and see what you mean. Right now, i am setting up the Antileon Evo with the DCS Rossini. I'm also beginning to move my cables around. The DCS Rossini and Antileon Evo seem to do excellent things together. On a side note, I almost chopped my middle finger in half because i was lazy and didn't want to wear gloves to move the Antileon on the critical mass platform. The damn heatsink got me real good. |
