My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Based on my analytics YouTube app, today's video already has 2600 views and it's only been six hours... This once again proves that the shootouts are less and less important for this channel. Good to know!
Right, too little bass with 725 + G makes no sense. Often power quality is unpredictable, which leads to variable findings. The scientific method requires repeated experiments, so if you come back to things at other times, and get the same results, you know there is incompatibility for sure, which is still unexplainable. Also, with new items, the sound can change markedly in the early stages, again leading to random findings. No doubt you love the 725 in the early stages, but don't be surprised if you come to different conclusions later.
There was no music between both, but rather just sound. Very little bass actually which made no sense (a mismatch somewhere between both). This is why i have incorporated my consultation service. There are tons of combinations that that don’t work and that i have not been vocal about. Granted only a few people want to spend money on advice even though they have the money to spend on expensive components (which makes no sense to me, but whatever). What is interesting to me is that most of the systems i am currently building for others are typically systems that are under $100k total msrp. This demographic tends to value my opinion quite a bit more. Some people rather buy components and gamble and lose THOUSANDS of dollars when they realize that they did not like what they bought or put together rather than allowing me to give them my input in order to minimize the room for error. Trust me, i am not getting rich off of this service, but i do have to charge for my time because that is time that i could be spending with my family. I actually just found out that there is another Youtuber doing consulting after he found out i am doing it, but he is giving advice on components along the likes of $500 dollar streamers, $900 dollar amps, etc, etc. More power to him!
Interesting. What went wrong with the combo of 725 and Gryphon amps? Too much bass? Since you love the 725 clarity for voice, I would think that 725 + Gryphon amp had better clarity than Pandora + Gryphon amp. If you still have the G amps, maybe you can demonstrate 725 + G vs Pandora + G. If the G amps are gone, do the same for 725 + Constellation vs Pandora + Constellation. The soft ARC isn't even in the running. If Pandora is gone, we'll wait for the new battery preamp, which I believe is Block.
kren, Since Jay didn't say "Nope" yet, I'll assume I am correct. He owned the Block amp around 2018 when you weren't yet here. If you were, you probably would have beaten me to the correct answer.
But if it is Block, Jay may not acknowledge it, and prefer that we listen and form our own judgments about the unknown.
I GOT IT--Block Audio monos, plus their battery powered preamp. You loved the Block monos a few years ago for their ballsy power, so you aren't taking much risk on an obscure overseas brand you never heard. After the Block, you found that other amps had more delicacy, like Merrill Audio 118, and the ultimate for that--Boulder. But I bet that you are itching to hear how the ballsy bass of the XLF is further magnified by the Block.
Was my 2nd guess actually but retracted since Stern+Heisenberg doesn’t quite tip the scale right ie.Less than 500lbs combined. Pilium and Audionet are worthy contenders imo, considering their price/performance vs competitors.
I suggest using the Gryphon amps which probably are more revealing of detail than Constellation amps. Still, the Connie will show the same relative ranking of the preamps as with the Gryphon.
DartZeel? Jay, you are a master showman of surprises and suspense. I like alliteration with s's. Let's listen to the sibilants also, lol.
Nobody got it right yet. I don’t want to do any videos just yet because i need a few things that didn’t come in the shipment so i haven’t fired up the amps. I’m only breaking in the linestage right now and it’s going through ups and down. I’m not about to throw something under the fire when it only has one day of use. I don’t think you all will get to hear any of this set up this month. However, I’ll do the introduction of the 725 linestage soon. In the meantime, we will play with the 725, constellation, ref6 se and maybe use the gryphon amps with both preamps to keep you all entertained.
I was going to guess Boulder 3000 series, however, WC has had Boulder in his room this past year, and he seems to be hinting to something different. Dave
Agree--the Naim Statement is a matched combo of the preamp and mono amps weighing what Jay says has arrived. The hifi+ review describes the type of sound that Jay likes--power, not sharp, suiting his concept of synergy with the XLF's. We'll see.
You should stay tuned... The amps and preamp just cleared customs in Miami about 2 hours ago... 500 lbs total weight lol I will go on record and say that I AM going to piss some manufacturers off.. especially those that have been in my room over the past year or so. Once you all hear this stuff, i expect for people to begin to dump A LOT of their amps. These amps have already replaced Dan Agostino Progression monos, Momentum M400s, ARC 160M in homes from people who have trusted my word. Are they as good as Soulution 701s? i cant say because i have never heard 701s in my room, but i will say to you is that i need break this stuff in before i let you all hear it.
@jg2077: i think i know who you are referring to with regards to the Mephisto monos. I received feedback about them from someone who had the Mephisto stereo and wen to monos. He said it was an improvement, but that the stereo mephisto is going to give you 90-95% of the performance in most applications. I am a believer that if anyone is going to spend big dollars on massive monos like the Mephistos, they need serious speakers like XLF, M6, Lyra, XVX or else you are wasting your money.
Jay, The XVX and Master Chronosonics would be fun to hear live, but they might need a larger room than you have. Personally, I am hooked on the brilliant HF of the XLF, which is the unique achievement of Dave Wilson. I don't see how the XLF could be bettered for what you like. A good bargain to boot, lol.
Some reviews find Nagra euphonic. If this is true, they are a miniaturized version of expensive fine audio jewelry in the manner of D'ag.
I don't have a guess on the components coming next week - kren0006 could be completely right about it. I've heard Nagra components only once in person and was not impressed - I would use Jay's word - "meh". Of course, that was years ago and things can change. After all, the Boulder components definitely improved. Dave
Jay, respected members of Agon and WBF have sold their top end amps to get into the Mephisto Solos. Those who have Solos claim the huge differences between Solos and stereo. Something else to note of the Solo, is their ability to present the decay, timbre and texture within the music. Lastly, the Nagra HD HV preamp is an excellent match with the Stereo and Solos, much better than the Pandora.
You could be right. I'm telling you if you see the xlf in person, it makes the alexx look like a toy. The crossover of the XLf is enormous, the bass is deeper and i think it's probably more revealing than even the mágico M6 was in here (not 100% sure)
The treble with Alexx V will probably be better because it has latest tweeter without the gimmicky rear firing but everything else will likely be worse.
I say “gimmicky” only because I’ve never been a fan of any speaker that used that feature but I’ve never heard Alexandria XLF in person and I wouldn’t doubt it’s great.
Yeah I think it would be unlikely that Alexx V is a major step upwards from what you have. Whether it is any step up at all would be a more interesting question but probably not interesting enough to roll the dice on, given the downside risk
I do not have any reason to sell the XLF even though,I WILL ADMIT IT - I HAVE looked at possible replacements, i feel like most are like "meh" and simply don’t motivate me to begin to crate the XLF. In my personal opinion, anything under 100k MSRP is not going to come close to the level of this speaker. In the event that i replaced it with a speaker under $100k MSRP it would be more to try something "different" than actually something better. There is no "ifs and buts" about that and i am quite CLEAR on this. I have spoken to many of my sources about other speakers and everyone presents the same argument to me which is: " i don’t really know where you go from there Jay...honestly just about everything will be a downward movement UNLESS you spend a boat load of money on top of the XLF to bring something far more expensive".
So there you have it. Those thoughts have actually been put to rest and i expect to still have the XLF when I go to Axpona later this year. Wilson Alexx V might happen, but not this year. I don’t think it can happen until probably summer of 2022. I need to hear it in a better environment because quite frankly i would be MAD AS HELL if i sell my XLF to buy the Alexx V and find out that it was a lateral move at best... Yea, dealers will always sing the same song with mariachis next to them telling you how far better the Alexx V is than any other Wilson speaker, but guys we know what’s up... we have heard that same tune about other stuff and when you are playing with this top end speaker, everything that is presented to you as a possible replacement needs to be evaluated thoroughly.
Although I don’t recall this brand ever being mentioned on this thread or by WC in his videos, I will make a prediction that the secret preamp and monos arriving next week are Nagra HD series
Fair enough. You have learned everything you needed about Gryphon electronics, cables, in combination with different speakers. Time to move on, mainly to have the money for new things. Boulder had qualities such as more refinement and resolution that the Gryphons didn't have. Probably Soulution as well.
However, the XLF is unlikely to be replaced any time soon, because it beats any other speaker you have tried for all the qualities you value. You can use different cabling and amps to get whatever you want. No other speaker so far enables you to satisfy all your desires. You will be disappointed if you trade out of the XLF. You can still keep the journey alive with these ancillary components. The XLF is marriage material, as I said when you introduced it. The other stuff is just good relationships that come and go.
I'll stick my neck out and say that the tonality of the last two videos is similar, so they both are the 725. I won't be surprised if I am wrong, since the recordings are different.
Good clarity on the voice, snap on the opening percussion. It could be either the 725 or ARC which are both new preamps for the XLF. The clarity is primarily due to the XLF. Some euphony comes from the Constellation amps and the ARC preamp combo, and less euphony from Connie + 725. Guessing which preamp is in the last video is meaningless--only an A/B/C/D shootout will reveal the essential nature of each preamp, with everything else the same.
I believe the last preamp to appear is the battery one, which I am looking forward to hearing.
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