chazzzy007,
My scorecard is the reverse of yours - I felt DAC #1 lacked emotion. I think it comes down to preferences, rather than absolutes. It's interesting though to see how the voting goes and what the majority prefer.
Dave
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@kren:
I forgot to mention that i have been using the silver tuning bullets on the synergistic research Galileo cables through the entire system. The silver bullets are used to produce more air and extension which is also another reason why Viber calls it "hot" tweeter. I just switched to gold tuning bullets and they bring out more musicality and reduce the excess energy on the high frequencies |
jays_audio_lab
Good to read that you are enjoying SR cabling.
Happy Listening! |
People are entitled to their preferences, but they should agree on objective characteristics of sound. It is interesting that some of the people who prefer demo 2--ron17 (I think), thezaks, golfnutz (I think), dasign--agree with me that demo 1 has more HF with brightness, and less midrange body. They all have good hearing, not only objectively, but they understand what they hear.
But kren0006 is uncertain of what he hears, suggests that the politically correct thread members rebuke me, and needs Jay to hold his hand and act as the Chief Justice of this Supreme Court. |
Jay When will you be posting your thoughts on the shootout?
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@thezaks
Yes I noticed we saw this very differently.
TBH I was expecting both DACs to sound similar to DAC 2 with some subtle but telling differences. Almost every MSB DAC presentaion I’ve heard has a tonal quality similar to DAC #2 with maybe a bit more delicacy and elegance at the edges, and a bit more refinement throughout the entire frequency range. EVERY dCS presentation I’ve heard including my time demoing the Bartok sounds like DAC #2.
This shootout has caught me off guard and taught me a lot.
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sometime later throughout the week. I will also be doing the shootout with another amplifier and the new mic, but i have not decided if i want to do it with the constellation monos or the Gryphon Antileon EVO. I know i had said i was going to use Constellation Audio, but i am not sure just yet. I need to do a few more tests here on my end and see which amp would be best for this next quick turnaround. |
chazzzy,
Although we agree on most aspects of this shootout and prefer demo 1, I am somewhat confused by your assessment that demo 2 is more forward than demo 1. Perhaps when you say, more forward, you are referring to bass instruments. Indeed, I have found that moving closer to the performers DOES give them more body, particularly in bass. The contrabassoon (a large wind instrument) player in the Washington National Symphony, Lewis Lipnick, in TAS many years ago described this phenomenon, and I realized he was correct. Moving closer increases the perceived SPL at all frequencies. HF are more markedly absorbed by distance than lower freq, so I find that closer distances reveal much more HF. So when I describe sound as more forward, I am referring to HF content, but I surmise that you are referring to bass content. Most people seem to agree that demo 2 has more body in midrange/bass. I think we agree, along with most people that demo 1 has more HF. |
Jay although the XLF’s are easy to drive, I think you may hear quite a lower end and midrange improvement as you move back up the ladder towards Mephisto. That extra power just grips the bass and allows for a more effortless overall presentation throughout the frequency range.
I am very much looking forward to your comments video for thisbone.
Thanks dood! 🤙 |
Viber,
When I used the term forward I am not referring to just HF.
On song 1 video #3 I found that everything was placed closer to the front of the soundstage thru DAC #2 while DAC #1 had a bit more depth with everything recessed just a tad further back into the soundstage. To my ears the DAC #1 presentation was a bit more sophisticated and elegantly delicate. I also understand how many could prefer the more forward vivid presentation of DAC #2. The tonal richness it presents is quite inviting.
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My new monoblocks are getting QC'd this week and then hopefully shipping next week. I expect to have a new linestage and a new pair of monoblocks for the 4th of July.
If all goes well, i expect to be at axpona this October. |
Jay,
Interesting about silver vs gold tuning bullets in the SR Galileo cables, but the big picture is the much greater HF content from the XLF compared to the other speakers you have presented in videos. Although I would prefer the sound with the silver bullets, I think your idea of using the gold bullets would let others tolerate the XLF better. As a result, the proportion of votes for dac 1 would probably increase, although the election would probably still be won by dac 2. If you tried a tube amp, then maybe the election upset would be for dac 1. |
chazzzy,
Thanks for your clarification, as I had thought. Dac 1--leaner, more delicate. Dac 2--tonally richer. I agree. |
Viber, as usual you don’t know what you’re talking about. You call the XLR tweeter hot, which is wrong. As to asking WC about the hot comment, that’s because he is only one in room (and YT has limitations). I said if you were right I’d stand corrected, but WC confirmed it was not hot, so you were wrong.
I prefer #2 thru two vids and haven’t had chance to sit down and hear the third vid yet, which I explained clearly.
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Chazzy do you have a prediction on which is dcs and which is msb?
sounds like you’ve experience with both brands and have listened carefully to the videos |
WC you should for sure tell us which is which before switching amps. That’ll increase views.
Here’s why. Once people know the IDs based on 3 vids, when you release the new blind video under different labels (A vs B or whatever), everyone will go back and forth again thru all the first 3 vids to try and match the sound to the fourth, probably watching each one or more times yet again.
But if you just release the fourth now, nobody will go back to 1-3, and will just wait for the reveal |
@kren0006
To my ears DAC #1 presents almost precisely like I’ve heard dCS. Therefore #2 must be MSB which surprises me. Tone wise the MSB that I’ve heard is richer and lusher sounding while sharing the other attributes I’ve described in this thread.
To me dCS has always presented well in demos. Musical, with a tonally "chunky", (not thin sounding) presentation not lacking in detail. It’s quite nice.
Which do you think is which?
Based on your comments and my time with the Bartok, I think you would really enjoy it. To my ears it is just slightly less vivid than DAC #2 with the same type of tonal "chunkiness". The only thing that kept me from purchasing was the headphone amp which isn't up to the capabilities of the DAC. Good but not superb. At the price point the Bartok is quite good if you enjoy an organically denser style presentation vs super airy. As I remember it the streamer to my ears was also quite good and is also a Roon nucleus which many people like. |
Chazzy,
Thanks, I’m really interested to find out.
As for my guess, I don’t have much to base it on, as I haven’t owned or had in system either brand.
My observations of WC lead me to think he prefers dcs, just based on his subtle comments over past two months, and things he has not said (almost complete lack of msb mentions).
That said, the gap in msrp gives me pause. I’m fairly certain WC prefers dcs to msb in general, but less certain that he prefers Rossini to msb reference, which is much more expensive (and thus not necessarily a fair fight). I’d have more confidence in my guess (see below) were this shootout Vivaldi v Reference, or Rossini v Premier.
Through two videos anyway, I preferred #2. Usually WC’s and my sonic preferences align, so based on that flimsy set of assumptions, if I had to guess I’d guess dcs is #2.
But I do not have a high level of confidence in that prediction. Not betting the farm, as they say…….
This isn’t like my prediction of “Big Wilson” before M6 was even gone, or the run of five or six in a row I had awhile back.
I’m just legitimately interested to know which is which, and neither outcome would surprise me too much |
Song #2 Video 3 goes to DAC #1.
I Listen to DAC #2 and like it, but keep noticing little things that DAC #1 does better.
Scoreboard
DAC #1 3 points - DAC #2 0 points |
kren0006,
Some of your replies to me, particularly the last, have a hostile tone. You are eager to rebuke me and loudly call me wrong and that I don't know what I am talking about.
First, you have some nerve disrespecting my musical background and competence as both a musician and audio listener. What are your musical background and objective qualifications to make your statements against me? I give credit to other people's opinions, such as showing how I agree with them on objective qualities of sound even if we have different preferences.
On to the subject of the HF emphasis of the XLF. If you read carefully, I said that this could be due to the tweeter itself, or the overall design factors like crossover network or other proprietary info. Jay agreed with me on this, but it seems your reading comprehension is off because of your vendetta against me. You will probably now spend time selectively choosing certain statements I made, quote them out of context, all to serve your agenda against me.
The most important thing you should learn from Jay is his cool-headed diplomacy allied to honesty. |
Not hostile at all. Simply pointing out areas where you are wrong, IMO and confirmed by WC based on what he hears in the room. Feel free to do the same to me. If you continue to post the misleading things, I’ll continue to call you out for it, like I always have.
You allege "hostile," and I’m certainly not complaining, but your most recent post before this said I don’t know what I hear, something about holding hands, and have to rely on a Supreme Court justice to make a ruling (aside: read up on how the Supreme Court works - hint, it isn’t like that, but I digress), so that’s at least as "hostile" as I was. But again, I’m not complaining. No vendetta at all, other than to call out BS. If I post BS, call me out on it. Enjoy the ride. |
chazzz007,
"To my ears DAC #1 presents almost precisely like I’ve heard dCS.
Therefore #2 must be MSB which surprises me. Tone wise the MSB that I’ve
heard is richer and lusher sounding while sharing the other attributes
I’ve described in this thread."
I'm wondering if the silver tuning bullets in the SR cables might be throwing things off for you a little bit? I am hoping WC does comparisons of the silver bullets vs gold bullets in the SR cables.
Dave
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Well, with regards to shootouts, Youtube analytics just told me that my views have significantly decreased since i posted video 2 of the shootout lol!!! Looks like most people don’t want to see repeated shootouts over and over again. My best performing videos over the last 28 days: - Here it is: meet my new speaker
- Magico M6: What are the cons of owning this speaker?
- Why did i let go of the Magico M6?
- The last dance: Magico m6 and constellation audio
- Magico M6 & Constellation audio
Analytics are like "the boss" on youtube. You either listen to what they are telling you or you are getting a blank check in the mail at the end of the month from Youtube monetization. Over 60% of my best performing videos tend to be those where i speak... Jay has to start listening to algorithms or else he is working for free and i can’t have that... So, going forward, i will have to limit these shootouts because it is a limited amount of people who really care to see this. They rather have me say what i think of each brand and my ownership of each than sit through endless a/b comparisons. Anytime i do shootouts, it seems to "stall" views and it takes a lot of my time to accomplish this because of the editing, connecting, disconnecting gear, level matching, etc, etc. Keep this in mind folks for future reference. i have to get in front of the camera more often and provide insights about this crazy level of gear and minimize the shootouts. |
Oh boy...another M6 coming soon? |
nah - but maybe the Q7 mk2? lol
It is just that those are videos where i disclosed what my thoughts were with the m6. Lots of curious folks out there and since nobody puts it out there like i do then that is a reason why they made it to the top. I am sure if i did the same kind of video with XLF, the same thing would happen. It is really more about ME TALKING that makes videos interesting to people than just showing gear play music too many times. |
Everyone must have made up their mind after the first video, wow. The folks on this thread have been with you longer and probably more passionate about the shootouts than the random YT subscriber, but still surprising to me
Isn’t the video that’s gotten the most views all time the one where you ranked the best amps you’ve ever had for the money? I thought that one was over 20k views last time I looked |
I edited my post above. The videos listed are over the last 28 days.
That's it folks. The general public has spoken. I gotta take the podium more often. Ugh. |
Again I prefer demo # 2, no contest here, so three times demo # 2.
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kren,
It is OK to say, "I differ, hear things differently, I prefer different things, here's why I believe you are incorrect," etc.
However, you have used inflammatory language like "you should be rebuked, corrected, you don't know what you're talking about." That is hostility.
Please post your musical qualifications to show that you have valid background to claim that I don't know what I am talking about. People like ron17 and chazzzy have musical training to stand on an equal footing with me. If I disagree with their preferences, I don't accuse them of not knowing what they are talking about, because I know they do know their stuff.
I have studied with world renowned musicians who were qualified to tell me I don't know what I am talking about. In one case, a famous violinist didn't like what I was doing, and I could see his disapproval of me. But rather than saying I don't know what I am doing, he just demonstrated his better way. He preserved my dignity, and I thanked him for his ideas.
Kren, you have good listening experiences that I can learn from. I asked you how the Bartok sounds, for example. Please keep these discussions objective and dignified, and then we can all learn a lot from each others' experience. |
Let’s stop arguing. I understand why you get so defensive when people like me and many others tell you that your audio listening skills are poor, but we do that based on the ample evidence you have provided over the years to prove that your audio listening skills are poor.
For example, you have contended based on your critical listening evaluations that:
1) lamp cord beats any other speaker cable
2) your "little Bryston" beats almost any amp WC has had in his room
3) Rane equalizer is better than almost all preamps WC has had
4) dac-direct is almost always superior to any preamp
5) and on and on
I and others read these so-called "expert" opinions of yours and roll our eyes.
Whether you can play a violin or not is irrelevant if these are the conclusions you reach based on what you hear.
I went and listed how I group (by tier groups) the various amps WC tested with M6 a few posts back. If you find those rankings to be junk, that’s fine with me, I won’t get defensive about it. |
WC,
Interesting about the shootouts. Perhaps just one video shootout for the comparison, and then a results video? If that ends up working, then you could do things like the silver vs. gold bullets, followed by a results video.
Perhaps there are folks out there that just want to be told what's best and why, rather than hearing for themselves. I know some guys that don't want to watch full sporting events, just give them the results/highlights and they're happy.
Either way, I will still follow your journey.
Dave
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I don't think viber has poor listening skills. I do think he's very opinionated and feels the need to convince everyone that what he hears and prefers is absolute....there's a difference. High end home audio is very subjective. I still think there's no 'best', only personal preferences and system synergies.
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Most people are just curious and once they heard the DAC's they really could care less moving forward.
People go to YT looking for reviews, unfortunately WC's channel caters to the 1%. |
I suppose you’re right Ron that there is a difference, but at the end of the day Viber shouts from the mountaintop that those bulletpoints I listed are audio truisms.
Judge for yourself what that implies about his claimed “expert” ability to judge hi-end audio gear. Nobody else here professes to be an expert the way he does |
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Perfect. These are the kinds of videos that keep me engaged, now that the primary platform is youtube, and what brought many of us to this thread from the beginning. Looking forward to viewing this afternoon!
I do appreciate the hard work of the shootouts but, for me, Jay’s thoughts are always what I am most interested to hear.
And of course others that have owned whatever gear Jay is evaluating to weigh in as well.
Thanks again Jay for all the effort. Man I don’t know how you do it with all else you have going on. |
thank you - this video is already getting a ton of hits and it is another prime example of WHAT people want to see me do. I kept it as real as possible with regards to dacs. Everything i said on that video should apply to ALL OF YOU. Dont get caught in the damn hype because if you are only streaming as i am, you are burning a boat load of cash for no reason. Dacs are getting STUPID expensive because we are getting caught in it and let’s not even start talking about how often DAC’s are replaced...
How do i do this? most videos are done on Saturdays.. i start shooting, editing, moving components, etc, etc on Saturdays at around 10am and finish at about 3pm... It does take time and effort to try to put out content. |
Actually just scrolled through your whole list, and the most views consistently happen when you:
1) Negatively review something (worst components 50k views, Accuphase 24k views)
2) Rank groups of things (not rate one single thing) (best amps for the money, 20k views, best power amps under $20k, high number of views)
3). Reveal major new components like the Alexandria speakers or M6. Both high views and recent |
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Dacs are no different from other components. You can build speakers (or have them built for you) for way less than $20K that sound better than 200K speakers......so spending more than $20K is stupid (someone else's word). Same with preamps, amps, cables, streamers, etc. It is stupid...he he....to spend more than $5-10K on any component and over $2K for any cable (and you can build your own cables). Diminishing return is what the high price stuff is about. Yes, you possibly get better performance.....but if you seriously tweaked with less expensive stuff you could get the same level of sound. You can use your intelligence and creativity or use your wallet and just buy expensive name brands. |
I’m good. I’m not a tweaker so i gotta pay for it.
Could you imagine my big ass showing you how to turn 20k speakers into 200k Wilson xlf?
I'd be working for David Blaine in no time! |
On the Video #3, I preferred DAC #2. It was a hard choice for me to make, but, overall, I responded better to the more forward presentation DAC#2 offered in addition to its greater (richer?) texture. Good selections! |
For me, again (now referring to Video #2), it was DAC #2. I simply felt it was more real. I loved the earthiness of the vocalist in Demonstration #2. |
Finally, and I am putting my head on the chopping block here, I think in all three videos the same DAC was #1 and #2, respectively. It will be fun to find out tomorrow whether I was right because I still will retain a head on my shoulders even if I am wrong -- which is a really good deal, all considered! |
@Kren0006
I flipped flopped these above...
IMO
DAC 1 = MSB
DAC 2 = dCS
I posted about this earlier in the thread. That's why I thought you'd love the Bartok. It sounds just like #2 with a tad less vividness and color. |
Quick off topic post.
Sunday I was surfing YouTube.
One of my channels I follow posts movie soundtracks. It posted amongst others
"Nobody does it better"
By Carly Simon
Wow!
Immediate nostalgia.
I love the Bond movies and no matter what Era you were born in you grew up with one of the Bonds. Carly’s voice sounded so pure I had to search for a great copy and after about 40 minutes found one on Qobuz. The best copy is actually from ’Bridget Jones edge of reason’ soundtrack. 🙌🙌🙌 Her live version is pretty good too. 👍
I listened to both versions at least 10-15 times over 2 days. Carly is such a natural talent.
Her voice is so rich. That song is amazing. Memories... 🙂
That’s what this is all about.
Tapping your foot. 🤙
Let’s cut the bickering.
One member who contributed on this thread, @blumartini was lost to 2020. He’s gone forever. Life is too short.
Let’s enjoy the music together while we can... 🤙
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Blumartini was a good friend. Him and i met over 6 years ago and it was on craigslist believe it or not. I can't remember if i was selling some polk Audio speakers or if he was selling his b&w speakers that he owned at that point in time.
He came to my home several times to listen to the different versions of my system. Great guy. My wife couldn't believe it when i told her he was gone. She said he always had a smile on his face at all times and that she just couldn't believe it.
Sad indeed. |
Kren,
You are correct about a few things but NOT for your criticism of the truth about my assertions. I DID say that--
"1) lamp cord beats any other speaker cable
2) your "little Bryston" beats almost any amp WC has had in his room
3) Rane equalizer is better than almost all preamps WC has had
4) dac-direct is almost always superior to any preamp"
Can you guess WHY I say you are incorrect? Answer--you have never listened to lamp cord, my Bryston 2.5B SST2, Rane EQ. If you have listened to lamp cord, and you didn't like it, that's fine and fair. But an objective ear can judge that typical speaker cable fattens bass and rolls off HF by comparison. I simplified somewhat, as zip cord seems to be more open and less veiled. You are entitled to not like the sound of lamp cord, but Steve of GTA confirmed my findings. He heard it, and maybe you didn't.
I am almost certain that you never heard my Bryston or Rane, so you have no basis for your criticism. Again, Steve heard both pieces, and confirmed my findings compared to his Pass amp and preamp. He still prefers his Pass, which is fine for him.
Jay agrees with me that for detail and clarity, dac-direct is superior than adding a preamp, although he prefers a preamp for other reasons, which I also agree with and understand.
On this interesting shootout, I had very similar objective observations as most of the listeners, even if more favor dac 2 and I favor dac 1. All of this shows that my listening skills are just fine. YOU NEED TO COME CLEAN AND RETRACT YOUR FALSE AND DEMEANING ACCUSATION THAT MY LISTENING SKILLS ARE POOR. If you have any decency, an optional apology is in order. For all the insights I contribute here founded on a lifetime of educated training and listening, I don't need your disrespect. Again, what are your musical qualifications to continue your criticism of me? You won't answer. I suspect you have limited musical training. But if I am wrong on that, you can correct me and I will retract that false statement. You can correct me if I am wrong, but nobody including you is entitled to REBUKE me, which is a moral offense.
Lastly, I have an open mind to the fact that Jay may in the future or have already found speaker cables that I would prefer to lamp cord. The expensive Boulder, Pandora and Christine preamps may have greater clarity than my Rane used just as a line stage, but I suspect that many preamps in your budget would not be superior to the Rane. You can remain close minded and believe what you want to believe, but it is sad that you don't show signs of opening your mind and discovering something excellent and really cheap which would allow you to budget more money for top Wilson speakers or whatever.
BTW, ron17 is mostly correct in what he says about me, but doesn't come on offensively the way you do. Learn from him.
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Chazzy,
interesting. That’s what I think too but for purely instinctual reasons as I laid out.
Viber, we’ll just have to agree to disagree
agree WC and chazzy sad about bluemartini. Didn’t know but respected poster |
