My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
Yesterday i turned on all 3 power amplifiers (momentum m400s, Mephisto and Boulder 2150s) for about 5 hours and i began to listen for about an hour each. I really REALLY feel like all 3 do some great things: Momentum m400s: -Easy listening -You don’t wonder or look for microdetails while you listen to them -Everything sounds very pleasant -You can leave them on 24/7 and you never feel like your ears need a break -Extreme synergy with Wilson Alexx Mephisto: -Arnold Schwarzenegger’s musculature (his prime days) -Big bold mids -Bass that makes you want to buy critical mass footers to place under your chair to avoid vibration -3d imaging that makes you wonder if speakers are playing independently Boulder: -Your ears now have hearing aids because you can hear what you couldn’t before -Everything is balanced with nothing sticking out -Devastating dynamics -Each song has a different volume so you reach out for your remote all the time -NO song sounds the same through these Each one has such great attributes and it becomes such a painful exercise to select one. I listen to the Boulder and i am blown away and then i switch to the mephisto and whoa this one does a little more of this and that and then i switch to the momentum m400s and now this one does something else that is also appealing. Who can choose what to keep? I STILL CAN’T choose. I am actually surprised how much i like the momentum this time around than the first time i had them. Maybe it is the critical mass footers under them? the audioquest dragon powercords? Not sure, but they are sounding very nice. |
i want to ask you all, and obviously this is hard for you all to probably give an opinion on because you have only heard the amps through Youtube, BUT what would you do if you had to make decision with the 3 amps i have on hand? Do you settle for endless musicality even though you aren't getting a spoon full of what is on the platter for you or do you go after the spoon-full even if it means you get full faster? |
Sell the D’Ag and Mephisto and Gryphon Pre and Rossini and clock. Get the ARC 750 latest version like you talked about on the chat and Ref 10. Then get the best DAC you can - Vivaldi or whatever. Then you will have the best balance. I think that could work out close to an even financial swap maybe?? Top of line Boulder and top of line Audio Research, with top of line dCS. That would be something else Hey, you asked ..... That's what I'd do if money were no object, relatively speaking. |
Good points, and i have access to a fresh pair of 750se, but i have someone who told me to not go after the 750se. They seem to not be a great match for the Alexx. Speaking of Alexx, i was thinking last night WHAT SPEAKER could i buy if i wanted to bring something else in to replace the Alexx that did not cost me an arm and a leg and here are my options: 1. Sonus Faber Aida 2 2. Magico M6 3. nothing follows 4. nothing follows 5. nothing follows That pretty much summarizes my thoughts. At this level it gets HARDER to find options and i am here to admit something to you all: it is a HELL OF ALOT more fun to play at the cheaper price points because more options are readily available. |
Rockport is on my radar, but i need to be patient. That Sonus Faber Aida 2 left a long loooong lasting impression on me when i heard it at Axpona 2018. The soundstage is larger than the Alexx and the bass is also much fuller believe it or not. Some say that is the best speaker under 200k MSRP and some have reported to me that they sold the M6 magico to buy the Aida 2. Either way, in order to replace my Alexx and stay at the same level of performance there will be less options for me. It was more fun when i had the DAW and speakers at that price point ! |
Jay, here is my opinion regarding your amp question. If it is so difficult for you to pick one of them, I would ask myself the following questions: 1) Which amps have the best fit with the Wilson's? 2) Which amps are the best for long listening sessions? 3) Which amps will be the easiest sell, if I need to depart from them? I think you have your answer now :-) |
Here are my answers: 1). All 3 fit quite well. They all sound incredible with Wilson for different reasons 2). Momentum are probably the better one, but i think this is mood dependent too. Some days you might want a long listening session with a ton of speed, dynamics, slam, resolution and some other days you want to listen more relaxed with a glass of wine and not be knit-picking the presentation. 3) Momentum is by far the easiest one to sell anyday of the week. Not even close when it comes to this aspect. If i sit in my room working all day, relaxing, being calm, and not judging anything critically then the momentum wins over both of the other amps. On the other hand, if i want to hear things as truthful as possible without having this sense of "technicolor" , but rather just pure facts then it is either the Boulder or Mephisto. One last thing to remember is to wait and see WHAT the transparent opus powercords will do to the Boulder amplifiers. This will be key in many ways. i also want to mention that something needs to be said about unlimited dynamics, speed, slam, etc. I realize that when you have an amplifier like the Mephisto and Boulder 2150 you get all of those traits, but you also are almost unable to "calm yourself down" when listening. Does this make sense? Think about it like this: How could someone relax when listening if you are in front of level of "thrust" and speed that throws you around all over the cockpit? It is like thinking that astronauts can actually relax when the space shuttle is taking off at 25,000 mph. You are almost forced to decide which kind of tonality you need because no power amplifier has both. Could i turn the Boulder into the softer presentation of the momentum? i think so, but i would have to kiss goodbye to the supersonic speed and dynamics, etc. Trade-offs indeed... |
WC, Quick thought on the Transparent Opus - this won’t be able to be a comparison of Transparent vs Dragons vs Nordost. It will be more of just how an upgraded power cord does with the Boulder vs. the stock cord. Too bad you could not try the Opus out before you had it converted to a Boulder type of cord. That way you would know what it does vs the Dragons and/or the Nordost. For the Momentum, perhaps just having different cabling on hand - depending upon your mood. Nordost cabling will give you one presentation, and Audioquest will give you another. Do the Pass Labs Xs300’s give you the best of both worlds? Of course, i realize they’re a bit more of a pain with heat and with time to warmup. Dave |
I’m still all over Boulder as my favorite combo. Boulder is Boulder, it’s the absolute reference for me. Not a fan of the D’Agostino momentum in general as I much prefer the Luxmans in that kind of sound categorie ( much less expensive also). Although, I admit the Momentums look is the best of the 3. I can understand why they are popular...beautiful jewels. (To admin, please delete my upper post, doublon error. ) |
Jay, you kinda confirm that the Momentum fitted the bill regarding those three questions. However, you also indicated that depending on your mood, you may pick the Boulder’s or the Mephisto for the dynamics/details. I think that you start looking into the d’Agostino Relentless! Probably they would fill up all of your requirements 😉. |
@larry: I have more than enough bass to be honest. My wilsons have never lacked bass in my room. This wasn't the case in my living room though. Im also not into trying to mess with crossovers and dialing things in, etc. I've always loved the full-range speaker sound and if I find the speaker lacks bass then it means it's not the right speaker for my room. |
@whitecamaross jay i disagree with you on this. its neither about you room nor its about lack of bass or SPL. no audio system is complete without a subwoofer. subwoofer is not added to compensate lack of bass. it improves both the definition and spatiality of the bass.and subwoofer helps and augments the main speaker there is a reason 350k xvx and 850k wamm come with add on sub woofer. there is no main full range speaker in the world that can render sub 20hz frequency faithfully and it’s simply is neither possible nor desirable or should be expected from the main full range speakers for example in REL 6 pack. each of the 3 pairs are crossed over at different frequencies.and once you hear the rel 6 pack or wilson thor or subsonic, its hard to go back to being without them. |
Wilson has the wamm with subs because they are always in huge rooms... And because as I have mentioned many many times, wilson is very VERY room dependent. More so than other speakers that I know. The bass is a hit or miss. If it’s a miss then you need subs... 5 pairs of wilson speakers so far and I am more than convinced that this is why they do subs with the big boys. I heard the chronosonic locally and it had no bass and guess what? Neither did my Alex in that same room... |
| Post removed |
Your system has plenty of bass but probably not sub bass. I’ve heard the Alexx with D’Agostino gear along with a Six Pack of Rel subs. The difference is pretty amazing when they are tuned right. At first the differences seems subtle but after while you don’t want to be without it. Soundstage explodes in size and depth. Even instrument tones take to a whole new level. These were crossed between 16-20 Hz. The room was only about 16x18. Very nice effect and not overpowering as it may seem. |
To echo and reinforce accurate points by both goodsource and carey, the main benefit to adding subs (properly, electronically with high and low pass filters in my experienced opinion) is not to add bass (but can be as well), but to relieve the main speakers and amplifiers of low bass responsibilities. The quality of low bass improves with subs and their dedicated amplifiers as well as the quality of mid bass and midrange in your main speakers. Not at all about quantity of bass, it is about the quality of bass........in your specific case. |
If I felt I needed to relieve the monster boulders from bass duties, they’d be sold right now...this is WHY you buy a monster amp like boulder. It needs no mercy from anyone. It doesn’t need your help or a lending hand. If anything your ears will need help in the form of ear plugs or hearing aids down the road. You could throw house parties or block parties with these things. I was guilty of thinking maybe I shouldn’t push my previous amps hard all the time or maybe turn them off when not in use because the capacitors might wear out faster. Believe me, I don’t have any mercy of any kind of these beasts. I go balls to the wall every single day and they just wink back at me 😉 I can't baby something that is built like this. If they fail me then I probably was the one who did something stupid. |
@whitecamaross its not about your amps whether boulder or for that matter even a dan relentless.its about your speakers or for that matter any full range mains speaker.no matter what u do to drive them or how many kilo watts of power you pump them with ,they cannot do what a subwoofer does. again i just mean quality,definition and spatiality of the bass and not its power or SPL. and needless to say ,although your system is very good and you may be satisfied with what you hear, as you would know in audio , you would not be able to imagine or know what is better than this, until you experience an array of correctly tuned subwoofers, whether its array of 6 rel no.25 or four drivers of a wilson thor hammer. |
You are making it difficult to have an intelligent discussion about the topic if you start talking about "feelings". We all know the quality and power of the Boulder. No one said it needs any relief. It is just a fact that if you ask your main speakers and the amps that power them to do less, they will perform what is asked of them better. The concept and reality are quite simple. Please take your balls off the wall, you will ruin the acoustics of your room (unless you have one on one wall and the other symmetrically placed on an opposing wall, perhaps acting like a SR HFT). :) |
I agree with the subwoofer recommenders. It is undeniable that if even two (let alone four) top RELs were added that WC’s system would sound better. But if he doesn’t want to go there that’s his prerogative. For example, WC’s main deal is reviewing amplifiers. If he were to add subs, he is in some sense losing some transparency into amplifier performance because the subs’ class D amplifiers kick in. So there are valid reasons for either approach. If it were me, hell yeah I’d add the subs! Amplifier review purity be damned I just want the best sound! |
@kren006 you are mostly right and i agree with you . talk of prerogative is irrelevant as these are ofcourse suggestions in general context whether jay goes this path or not. But class D IMO works better and suited for subs and its not bad as its for mains speakers.class D amps are fast and efficient being well suited for subs. and i disagree about loss of transparency. addition of a class D amp of REL will not cause any loss of transparency of the mains amp and speakers. ofcourse the best and more costly approach would be to use passive subs like wilson thors or subsonic and run 4 power amps of same type ( 2 pairs of monoblocks).this would match the timber and tone of subs and mains to greater extent. |
Let me clarify. I don’t mean loss of transparency in the overall sound. That will likely be enhanced because the mids and highs will actually sound better with subwoofers. So there is that, and that’s why I myself would do it. Also, I am not knocking class D or especially subwoofer class D. Just stating a fact that REL subs use class D. But what will be lost to a degree if subs are added is the ability to entirely focus on the full range performance of the amps ( Boulder, Mephisto, Dag, etc) because there are now more amplifier cooks in the kitchen, rather than just one. That’s what I meant. If one’s primary purpose is to rate amplifiers even at the expense of the best possible sound, then I can understand why WC doesn’t want subs |
You all are 200% correct by the way. Yes I know subs would enhance the presentation to a whole new level. I’m aware a sub would do things a speaker can’t completely do. My issue is that it involves more tweaking, crossovers, moving subs around the room to get them dialed in properly, and knowing me I’d want an expert to do such feat. There is also the point that Kren just brought up which is me not able to fully taste the control of an amplifier. Another point I wanted to bring up is that i haven’t heard a system with subs that blows me away yet...I’ve been at shows and I don’t think I remember a sub making the difference and I also have been at a local stores where subs were used and I felt and still feel that my bass here in my room goes much lower and it is more impactful. I also dont have anyone near me (that i know of) with a system that would properly display the advantages of using sub. |
Gentlemen - earlier in this forum (when the Monte's were Jay's main speakers I believe?) the discussion of sub's came up. I shared my experience when I listened to a pair of lower tier Martin Login speakers with and without a single well setup / integrated Rel sub-woofer. I was floored by the difference. The entire spectrum of music became fuller, the imagining went from thin to full and lifelike, the entire dimension of the music transitioned from portrait to fully dimensional! I know this sounds extreme - I'd never have thought this could happen with the addition of a sub-woofer but it was an experience I'll never forget. I also read about a similar experience (Stereophile or Absolute Sound?) with a super tweeter (a smaller square box - Mylar film if I remember correctly, placed on top of a speaker) that added the same type of completeness to the music spectrum. This experience demonstrates the over and undertone harmonics are a critical part of musical spectrum. |
Weak and bad bass...so you're saying that unless there are subs with a REFERENCE speaker, the bass is weak and bad...interesting... These are news to me now. .. Reference speakers are aren't really reference unless subs are added. So then getting a pair of wilson daw and adding subs would end up being a far better speaker than the alexx because the bass from the subs is of more importance than the time alignment, extra drivers and size of the alexx. |
Really good full range speakers have a coherence in the mid-bass to deep bass that is hard to achieve with added subs. Difference in driver material and amp speed/topology can be quite apparent in truly high end systems, crossovers are rarely totally transparent if used between pre and amps. And i find most aftermarket subs, including REL lacking in phase adjustability, something that becomes apparent if you want to use a high crossover point, like 100 HZ. |
| Post removed |
Actually subs do more then just add bass why do you think Wilson makes 3 different model of subs like the Thor which are displayed with your speaker WC. Many ultra 6 & 7 figure system have big subs added there not spending that kind of money for just bass and if really good full range speaker have a coherence in the mid base then again why is Wilson making subs for there reference speaker as well has other manufacturers. |
I own Alexx speakers. Do they need subwoofers? No, they sound great without them. Do I run them with subwoofers? Yes, in my room IMO they sound "greater" with them. I'm running a 4 REL distributed bass array. This is a preference hobby. Whomever owns the gear should set it up how they want. Jay, I like what you do; please keep doing it. |
@astewart8944 even i own alexx speakers and yes they also need subwoofers. and nobody is talking about yours or jay’s somebody’s right or preference or prerogative or personal hobby to spend their money and create the systems they way the want.these points are utterly irrelevant.we already respect and understand jays choices at a specific point of time in his audio journey and these are just suggestions. we are talking about general principles of architecturing and designing systems. any audio system is incomplete without a subwoofer and this is a proven & tested concept. period. |
A well designed speaker system- should be designed to allow the woofers to operate separately but integrate seamlessly with the midrange and tweeters. Most full range speakers that incorporate the woofers in the same cabinet as the midrange drivers and tweeters have to deal with the fact that this causes issues relating to the asymmetrical waveform of the lower frequencies smearing the purity of the midrange and high frequencies. Trust me if you heard this track in our showroom you would have your jaw drop in your lap. YouTube does not really do it justice - but you still get a glimpse of what to expect in person. Headphones please and it takes off around 2 minute 20 second mark. https://youtu.be/ewIfQUKyIcc |
It would be useful to know how low the Wilson's actually measure in Jays room, and if there are any room modes that need to be addressed, then one would know how flat the response is because more than likely it could be enhanced with a bit of dsp. I believe that Chris at Computer Audiophile or whatever that sites called now had that done with his Wilsons and said the improvement was profound. As an aside, I own 4 stacks of OB's as well, but my drivers are opposed which I think maybe a bit better for loading the room. Don |
The Dag vid is tasty yummy like soft butter on a warm fluffy biscuit.........but the whole time listening has me missing that spectacular Boulder juicy prime steak and '90 Latour sound. Auxeses well deserved even considering the sub optimal SQ from y tube. Techno.... you have made some fine observations/comments in the past, but a bit more research, understanding, and experience will have you reconsidering the accuracy of your last post. Faxer.....Nice speakers (new version), heard the old version at the last AXPONA (when was that, 1958?). Enjoyed a conversation with the designer. The vids sound fine enough.....but difficult to compare/contrast their sound with Jay's (if that is the intent) because obviously everything is different- room, amps, etc...Can never tell anything about absolute SQ on y tube, only relative SQ....so it is imperative to have the speakers you represent in Jay's system or vice versa. Likelihood of either happening is probably low. Often wonder if it does more harm than good presenting a y tube video to the masses when the intent is to impress them ( to assist in sales) with the SQ of said product....so many variables, not the least of which is......we are listening through our stuff (audiophile technical term). The best any vid of any piece of equipment is going to sound is the ceiling our own system imposes, even if we could watch a vid that has 24/96 and up resolution. Hope sales are better than expected! |
