My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Jay, Agree about beryllium. I recall the video with the Focal Scala being better and even cheaper than Sasha DAW, probably largely due to the Be tweeter. I would think you would be curious about the all-Be tweeters in Tekton Moab/Encore/Ulf covering down to 270 Hz. The prices are modest (cheap by your standards) due to the direct sales model. There is a facebook group where you can search for local owners who love to demo them. You could at least hear the versions with stock tweeters, which are commonplace. although it might be difficult to find an all-Be version.
Still, the only way you know anything is by having them in your room with your equipment. Moab is the outstanding value for $4500 stock, $14K for all-Be. The 145 lb Moab is child's play for you, since you are used to much heavier items. There is a high probability that you will want to keep them as a cheap reference to replace the 20.7, but you are protected by the money back guarantee. Certainly I respect your integrity about not wanting to take advantage of manufacturers. However, my guess is that the worst that will happen is that you will say that a Tekton is superb value for every sonic criterion, and that it challenges almost any speaker much more expensive. The designer, Eric Alexander says that, so he would probably appreciate your endorsement like that. And a possible outcome is that you find it to be the best and not just at its price point.
viber6, It’s been mentioned many times already for WC to buy a Tekton, but he mentioned that he’s not interested in buying one at this point. I myself would love to have WC try a pair (especially with the Focal tweeters) and compare to the speakers that he’s had recently. However, it’s not happening, so no reason to continue to repeat. Dave
I remember Jay having the Magico M3's with their beryllium tweeter. I believe he thought it was very hard on the ears and quickly let that speaker go. Is there that much of a difference between Be tweeters? Jay if you can remember having the M3's, how does their presentation compare to that of the Focal Scala or the Stella's? Could it be that your cables and components you had at the time you had the Magico's were not an ideal match for the Magico's?
Let’s not extrapolate. WC has said the $140k Focal has a better top end than the $60k Alexia 2. Why is that surprising?
When WC had the Sasha DAW and the Focal Scala of about the same price in his room at the same time, he virtually never listened to the Focal (except for a brief period right before it was sold), and the Focal was gone before we knew it, while the Sasha DAW remained for a longer time than any speaker in the last year.
Stick to the facts of the thread everyone. Don't project or attempt to rewrite history.
i think i had nordost odin cables when i had the m3s in here for a brief moment. There was an enormous amount of detail but i am also a firm believer that too much of a good thing isn’t always a good thing. For instance, i listened yesterday for about 3 hours and i was glued to the chair and next thing you know i was listening at louder volumes than i usually do because the sound was "delicious" so i wanted more and more, but of course my ears gave me a reality check that LOUD IS LOUD regardless of whether the sound is smooth/relaxed or fatiguing. I have to keep that in perspective doing forward.
I believe the Magico tweeter is awesome, but it is not built by Magico. It is built by Scanspeak with Magico’s specs. I am not sure if this really matters or not, but what i can tell you is that each Magico M3 tweeter is $2,400 dollars. I have seen invoices of what Magico charges for each M3 tweeter and let’s not forget that you have to ship the entire speaker to Magico if you blow any driver. Take a look at the Magico M3 and you will see there are no nuts/screws/bolts around the drivers because they have to be removed from the bottom with special tools that Magico has. They pretty much have to perform "surgery" on the speaker to fix it.
There are many ways to slicing the pie: For one, no Wilson Audio owner has to ever worry about blowing a driver because the resistor tends to below first and not the driver. Each resistor is only $60 dollars and you can replace them yourself with tools that Wilson sends you. In addition to that, i believe that each Wilson tweeter is about $200-$400 on average so it is not absurdly expensive. Of course, people can criticize that Wilson uses crappy tweeters or drivers, but these people WILL NOT complain when they blow a driver because the cost to replace them is very little. On the other hand, they love to hype the extremely sophisticated drivers that Magico, Focals, etc have UNTIL they have to pay for one of these drivers then they begin to complain. So in essence, damn if you do, damn if you don’t. Any Magico M series owner will tell you: It ain’t cheap to fix if you break it. Be prepared to pay approximately $4800 for 2 tweeters plus $1600 in shipping charges (roundtrip) plus labor. You are talking about $7,000 dollars when it is all said and done. If you want some of the best stuff, don’t complain when it is time to pay for maintenance/repairs. If anyone here is considering any Magico M series speaker, be sure you are aware that the whole speaker needs to be shipped back to them if you break it and drivers cost money. Oh, yes, you have to cover shipping both ways AND you have to be the one to arrange the logistics for them to get shipped back to you. Magico WILL NOT set up return shipping to you. You have to call carriers and get them to go to Magico to pick up the speakers from their loading dock.
The Wilson Audio Sasha Daw did stay with me for approximately 6 months. The Alexia 2 was here for about 2 months. Granted, the reason why the Alexia 2 was here for only 2 months was because i had the Stella Evo available to me and i needed to get some funds back so i sacrificed the Alexia 2 or else they would still be here. Hell, for all we know the Focal Stella Evo might be gone before Christmas and i might have something else here. Sometimes the opportunity that shows up at my door is what dictates my next move and what gets sold. If tomorrow the stars aligned and i had a chance to get the MSB dac i am contemplating then i’d sell the DCS Rossini. The only component RIGHT NOW in my room that i can truthfully say i won’t be selling unless something else dethrones it is the Mephisto. In order for the Mephisto to leave I’d have to have the replacements here and I’d have to be fully convinced that they bested my Mephisto. One other factor that influences my decision is how readily available a component is on the used market. If you look at the Mephisto, you all should know by now that it isn’t on the used market ever within the U.S. This means that if i sold mine, where the hell am i going to get another one? it will cost me a ton of money to replace it. I can always find another Wilson Audio Alexia 2, DAW, etc, etc rather easy. I commend the Gryphon disctributor for keeping tight controls of their current product because this makes the product more desirable and it protects the used market value.
here we go... the dude is bored again... honestly... this is the same guy who i actually messaged privately and told him, lets get on the phone and talk like adults and he declined. i told him that since he does not want to talk to me (man to man) over the phone then to please stay in his lane and i will stay in mine and never cross paths... well here we go again.. the bickering... well, now you see what he is doing... really man? ugh...coming here to attack me when i have COMPLETELY not even mentioned his name at all since him and i last messaged privately. i have COMPLETELY stayed in my lane ... Sad...
words like crap? lol.. that would be mr techno who is insinuating that about wilson audio and the drivers they use...not me... get your facts straight. i just do not UNDERSTAND WHY he is all up in my business? why? what am i doing TO HIM ? why is he so salty with me? Or is it that he is angry that he has tried to initiate threads and they have not lasted long enough because nobody is interested in them? HOW IS THAT MY FAULT?
Jay didn't say the Wilson's tweeters or drivers were crapy...don't think he would ever say that. I believe he has had more Wilsons than any other speaker....he must really like them. What he said was
"Of course, people can criticize that Wilson uses crappy tweeters or drivers, but these people WILL NOT complain when they blow a driver because the cost to replace them is very little."
I think he was trying to make the point that it's difficult and costly to repair Magico blown drivers. You and one other poster seem to be just waiting to jump on anything Jay says....Can't you be happy with your own thread? Why must you continually poke and jab at the OP of this thread?
Alright folks, Let me step away from the computer and go blow some steam off at the gym. I'll catch up with you all some other time. I need to chill and gather my thoughts.
A physical threat to a 66 year old....oh boy...really.?. Why would I do that to myself? The damage is done to me if I laid a pinky on you. I got too much to lose...you clearly don’t.
Manufacturers got more important stuff to do. That’s why. They aren’t afraid of what’s said. You’re the one that is afraid. Tell them to delete my YouTube channel too. Go on. You have the bandwidth and time to do it since you don't much else anyhow.
We are all being deleted, it’s a digital virus called a moderator19 ! Goodbye see you in the digital afterlife !
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Okay Guys, the thread is getting a little combated. If you have a problem with a particular member take the discussion off the forums privately. Any questions/concerns, email support@audiogon.com, Attention: Tammy
whew Back to the journey. I really enjoy the YG tweeter - mix of soft dome and hard metal - but I have never heard it compared to Be. Anyone? https://www.yg-acoustics.com/tech/billet-dome
I find the tweeters in my YG Carmel 2's very fast and detailed. On good source material and with quality components and cabling the sound is wonderful....with not so good material and lesser components (as with most high end equipment) it's not a great listening experience. YG speakers are not very forgiving.
BTW...YG does not use beryllium tweeters. They designed their own drivers. The following is from YG's website.
A tweeter that ends the age-old debate of hard dome versus soft dome, by combining the best of both Our most complex mechanical invention: a resonance-free soft dome is supported by a stiff, light airframe machined from aluminum billet The airframe weighs a mere 30mg, but is 14x thicker than a typical hard dome, so its structural strength is vastly superior even to domes made of the most exotic hard materials This technology was patented by YG Acoustics in April of 2019
zprr and I have similar systems and listening tastes. I'm guessing he would say the same thing about his YG speakers. zprr maybe you could expand on that?
Dave No, the Carmel 2 uses a tweeter called ForgeCore. From YG "A tweeter’s magnet system serves as both its motor and enclosure. ForgeCore is unique in optimizing both functions, dramatically lowering distortion".
zprr has the Hailey 2.2's that use BilletDome tweeters. He would be the one to comment on the BilletDome tweeters.
I will try to hear them next time I can. I have spent very little time with yg. Can’t really comment on what they do good or bad. I’ve been told they are like magico in terms of construction (aluminum)
Yeah, the second series Hailey & Sonjas use the Billet Dome which trickled down from the Sonja XV. I moved from the Carmel2s to the Haileys 2.2s last year and I do feel the new tweeter added a touch more detail and focus and a slightly smoother presentation. This is particularly true at higher volumes, so not helpful for everyone.
I believe YG felt that metal hard dome tweeters (aluminum, beryllium or diamond) can ring when pushed high enough. They tried to take advantage of both technologies.
But, I have never heard a Be tweeter to compare... and it sounds like WC is finding no trouble at higher volumes...
@zprr: Correct. I’m with zero fatigue here. That said, i don’t own nordost speaker cables anymore. I suspect too much Odin cabling on beryllium might be too much. I think there has to be a balance somewhere else in the chain. Beryllium doesn’t really need the added information from odin. Don’t get me wrong, it still sounds good but if you crank it up then you run into some issues. The UTOPIA EVO speakers aren’t bright. I can vouch for that. If anyone is considering them, you have my word that brightness isn’t a thing with them. I
Rockport speakers have piqued my interest and I suspect I will try them next year. I am doing "my rounds" with different speakers over the next few months. Mágico, Rockport and possibly MBL are on that list. The new Dynaudio confidence didn’t impress me when I heard them locally. For some reason, and it could be my mind, i view Dynaudio as being below in the rankings when comparing them to the magico, Wilson, focal Utopia, Rockport. Again, it might be my mind. I heard from 2 dealers who were not impressed with the new Dynaudio confidence either but you know this is all subjective. Just because others say something it doesn’t mean you will agree to that as well. This is why you need to try things on your own. Do we have any Dynaudio confidence owners here? I mean the new confidence line. I’d love to get some feedback.
Tecno, the bw do sound good, I have the 800s. Not sure I could compare them to the evo though, meaning the tweeters specifically since that’s what you mentioned. There is something I really really like about the 800s. I remember trying their versions from the early 80s and being under whelmed. I ended up with the vandersteens at that time, such a sweet speaker. Wish I still had those, would love to compare them to what I have now. I have a set of the larger book shelf 700 series bw that sound ok, but not impressive in any way. I heard the 802s before I got the 800s, huge difference to me. My thing is that I like different sounds. I’m not married to any one sound. I like variety. Different speakers do different things well, and I appreciate each for what it does. Classical is wonderful on them, Norah Jones, Ann Wilson, etc. great vocalalists are fantastic on them, impactful music is great. Pink Floyd, especially monetary lapse of reason, and the eagles hotel California album. I’m surprised they don’t make an offerings further up the scale like Wilson and others. I’m looking forward to jays future with speakers, since as he said, there’s really no where else he needs to go with the front end. I’m not as familiar with the magicos since they wernt really big when I got the audiophile bug.
I owned Dynaudio C4 platinum, c1 platinum, evidence temptation. Good sound but I can't say it is better than the magicos and wilsons or focal Utopias of the world.
WC should upgrade the fuses in the miraculous Gryphon Mephisto amplifier. It would make it even more miraculous. Add to that a change of dac. dcS was successful in the past with it’s ring dac. Today is a new ball game. Someone does not need to put this much on a dac anymore.
Need isn’t what this hobby is about. No needs a 10k system much less one for hundreds of thousands. Want and need are two different things. No one needs to be a race car driver. No one needs to jump out of perfectly good airplanes. No one needs a 100k car. This forum isn’t really about needs. This specific thread most certainly is not. Some people reach for the stars, while others are afraid to leave the ground.
Jay, The Tekton Sartori Be tweeter retails for almost $500, and the designer charges $500 for it, which includes installation. If you want to swap the regular tweeter for the Be version, or replace tweeters, you can do it yourself without the hassle of shipping. This is fair. Why does Magico charge $2400 for their Be tweeter, which is a Scanspeak product? Add the cost of shipping the whole speaker back and forth, so Magico is much more expensive. Is it worth it? Maybe Magico's way is purer and more structurally sound.
In the end, Be tweeters and implementations with crossovers are all different, so any speaker must be auditioned to draw conclusions. I just like the tweeter array concept of Tektons, so even the cheap stock tweeter array may have more resolution than larger drivers covering the middle/upper midrange.
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