My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
Came across this thread by happenstance and I’m so glad I did. Whitecamaro, please keep up the good work. My limited experience with some of the gear you’ve evaluated convinces me you know what you’re talking about. Had a Simaudio Aurora in my HT system, loved it, but sold it when the babies came along. Will be back in the market soon for a good multichannel amp and prepro. Heard Pass Labs XA amps at a DC dealer some years ago, and my life’s never been the same since.
Please keep writing, I’ll keep reading. Interested to see how your experience with the Ref 10 goes. Also interesting that you’ve never mentioned Spectral. I’ve never heard more detail than when I heard them hooked up to Avalon Eidolons at Overture Audio in Delaware. Too lean for me, but blew my mind.
Yes I also hope that you are enjoying this ride! Otherwise...
For 25 years I've used 3 integrated amplifiers from NAD, Magnum, and currently the remote controllable Creek.
I also tried a pre-power combination from Naim for a few years. The main difference between all of them seemed to be the power on hand. The amount depends largely on how difficult your speakers are to drive and 100 wpc is more than enough for me currently.
I wouldn't bother changing amps again unless I needed more useful features such as tone controls. As far as I'm concerned the only remaining amplifier frontier is the world of valves, if for nothing else than the looks!
Is the Ref 10 new or used? If new, it is going to go through some swings between now and the next 200-300 hours. Also, I am just a tad skeptical that before you ever got close to your listening position you jaw dropped-it just smacks of audio-hyperbole. But I am happy for you and as an ARC fan I can only applaud your good taste in pre-amps, And I agree that you ought to try about five or six top level IC's between the Ref 10 and whichever amp you end up with because as set forth in the "Balanced Cable" thread currently running in which Ralph Karst of Atma-Sphere has posted much valuable information, with ARC preamps the choice of cabling will significantly change the presentation.
@thyname, I don’t think there is one now. But when I lived in DC some years ago, Pass had a dealer named Lucious. He had Pass, Simaudio, Theatermaster, and a few other lines. His main speaker line was the VMPS, which is what I heard the Pass with (the Rm40s to be precise). I’ve tried to locate Lucious since I left, but no luck. Great guy.
Hi guys, thank you for all your feedback. I do believe I have to start looking into cabling but I’d like to first get acquainted with the sound of this beast of a preamp. Once I’ve gotten used then I’ll begin to evaluate cabling. That said, I’m just in heaven with the presentation of this preamp. Again, it’s just different than what I’m used to. It doesn’t make me want to try more preamps which is why I sold my arc ref6. I think of the ref 6 as a speed boat with quickness, detail, dynamic and great soundstage. The ref 10 is a yatch in the ocean just cruising in the ocean. Big, wide, smooth and a lot of real state in terms of sound. That’s the most accurate description I can think of. anyhow, next week I will be receiving the pass labs 350.8 and 160.8. The goal will be to try and see which of the 2 amps will be a better match with my speakers and preamp. I want to really like the 160.8s but something is telling me the 350.8 will be a better match. Revel salon 2s according to pass labs are a better match for the 350.8 or 600.8. The 160.8s May sound too lean with the salon 2 in terms of bass.
Mikepaul, my system is no-doubt an outlier, but back in July I bought a brand new Ref 6 and Ref 150 SE and then two months later bought a new pair of DeVore 0/93's. I only bring up the "new" nature, because I have gone through the swings of break-in for all three. I was happy but not floored with the match until I tried Cardas Clear Beyond XLR between my preamp and amp and Cardas Clear SC's, I also got a significant bump up on SQ by jettisoning my cheap mdf and re-bar equipment rack and investing in a Symposium Osirus Ultimate on which I have my Ref 6, Manley Steelhead, and AMR DP777 DAC. My amp sits on a 5" thick slab of maple butcher block right now, in front of my rack, but I am planning on investing in Symposium's top amp stand before long.
Mike, the duo 300 is a good amp but I can’t see the arc ref6 and Krell duo be a smooth match. It may be a bit too bright sounding depending on the speakers of course. I highly HIGHLY suggest a simaudio 860a. The match is amazing between both
Whitecamaross....yes I have to seriously consider the simaudio 860A...the krell is excellent..but the synergy might be a little better with the sim...the krell is a little high strung in my setup. Still good...but could be better ( more refined)
Does anybody know how the new simaudio 860A amp compares to the old W8 or W& amp? similarly, how does the old P8 dual chassis preamp compare to the new 740p preamp? Thanks!
Here Krell mono power and ARC pre are not at all bright sounding with my Monitor Audio PL500, so as said before everything is system dependent.
Nevertheless I am going to listen next weekend to the Simaudio Moon 860A power and 740P pre with the PL500’s together with a front end also from Simaudio. That will be fun!
About the Martin Logan Neolith, I am still surprised that a lot of people liked the smaller speakers from ML, the Renaissance and/or CLX Art, far better than the Neolith! This including some well-known audiophiles with extensive experience with these models. I hope to hear some of the latest offerings from Martin Logan also next weekend.
Soo, let’s put it out there, the simaudio 860a is sounding incredible with the arc 10 preamp. Amazing synergy. Here is my question, will the pass labs 350.8 or the 160.8s sound even better that i will want to sell the simaudio or will the simaudio just hold its own and not allow me to let go of it ? are those pass labs amps just that far superior than the simaudio 860a? or will the pure 160 watts class a watts from the monos will be sufficient to squash the simaudio? i have people over at pass labs waiting for my findings since they have been told by other users that the salon 2s sound incredible with the 350.8, but they want to see if the 160.8s can do an even better job. My only concern is that i feel the 160.8s may lack the massive bass attack that the 350.8 has. That said, if this was the case then WHY did i hear such amazing bottom end from the 200.5s? they have HUGE bass control and i gotta believe the 160.8s have bass control as well....
ok guys, here are my top picks based on things that left a lasting impression on me. Here you go, but not in a particular order: AMPS: Pass labs xs150 Pass labs xa200.5 Luxman 900u Audio Research gs150 Simaudio 860a
PREAMPS: Audio Research Ref 10 Audio Research Ref 6 Luxman 900u
Speakers: Monitor Audio PL500s Martin Logan CLX Martin Logan 15a Dynaudio C4 Platinums
I can chime in since someone mentioned simaudio 740p preamp. My experience with this preamp is ... dont waste time. I bought one to replace my 25yr old aragon 28k. The aragon trashed the 740p in every department... transparency, soundstage, clarity, neutrality, dynamics, bass, mids, highs. The 740p sounded smooth, rounded and low fi. I just could not understand why stereophile and soundstage highly recommended it and even use it as reference preamp. Whitecamaross is right, reviewers are a bunch of bullshit. High end gears need to a/b on the spot to hear the diff, not by itself. Fantastic thread! Worthy of an audiophile book.
hi there, remember that this hobby is subjective so you will always find a person who loves a certain product. Also, not everyone here on audiogon follows my threads so it really does not matter. There is always a buyer, but it is just a matter of waiting.
Anyhow, the pass labs 350.8 and 160.8s have been playing for the last hour. Here are my initial impressions versus the simaudio 860a:
Simaudio 860a: holding its own here with great depth and detail. It has no issues controlling the salon 2s except if i decide to crank things up to high decibels.
pass labs 350.8: excellent bottom and detail. Can sound a bit "shouty" if i crank it up too hard.
pass labs 160.8: outstanding finesse and detail. Bottom end is just a tad less than the 350.8, but the highs and mids are above the rest.
anyhow, with that said, it is still way too early to begin conclusions. the amps have been traveling for the past week so i don’t expect them to be quite there yet. Overall, i am impressed with the simaudio 860a up to this point. I don’t know what will happen once i keep playing the pass labs over the next days.
This is going to be a very hard exercise to follow. i just started listening to the pass amps and i have the a bit of a confusion going on. My ears might also be tired so i will have to leave them on the rest of the day and will come back tonight to revisit and see how they have changed. Hard as hell right now!
I think Pass Labs gear always needs a couple of days to settle in and sound its best. Too bad you don't have other speakers to try with these amps for the comparison.
i have tried plinius amps... You need to go back and read the many pages of amplifiers i have had :)
Ok guys, i have had the pass labs amps on for about 7 hours now. I am just starting to play music through the 160.8s. Here is what i am hearing so far:
Cristal clear detail, sense of space, gorgeous mids, zero fatigue, deep bottom end without bloating. These monos are indeed a different animal from what i heard earlier. Up next, the 350.8 will go through the paces and i will finish the night with the simaudio. All amps are using wireworld silver 7 power cords and xlr. Preamp is the audio research ref 10.
pass labs 350.8: excellent bottom end which edges out the 160.8. The highs and mids are all there, but they seem to come more at you when compared to the 160.8. They seem very "in your face" which can give the illusion that the sound is better. However, if you sit down long enough then you will discover that it is just an illusion.
Simaudio 860a: Holding its own and refuses to be taken out of my home. It is putting one hell of a fight that honestly makes me question HOW IS THIS AMP NOT WORTH 25K ? It has amazing detail, smoothness, musicality, it does not run hot, it has pretty much everything other than huge decibels when called for.
That said, let's keep in mind this is the synergy i find with my salon 2s. I don't know how everything would be if i had electrostatics. I suspect the 160.8s might have the edge with that kind of speaker. One thing that i must admit is that from only listening today (tomorrow things could change since i will leave the pass amps on all night long) is just how good this simaudio amp is or the synergy it has with my ref 10 preamp.
Whitecamaross, I hope u can review more of those gears which an average audiophile can afford. 3k to 20k range gears. Your audience narrows as u go too hi end. Some gryphon, Accuphase, dynaudio and especially stereophile reviewer's recommended gears. See how accurate their reviews are. Highly reviewed gears are easier to sell as well and thats good for u also. Cheers!
Hi Whitecamaross, Given your thoughts on sim's 860a, if you get the opportunity to try out the 870a, you may really enjoy. Has all the characteristics of the 860a that you described and may give you those added decibels and headroom that your ears crave and your speakers may demand. Improved performance at lower volumes as well. Of course, would be very curious to hear your impressions/evaluation. Thanks again for all that you have shared. Invaluable info.
Follow your thread for a long long time, thank you so much for all your kindly sharings. Will you consider trying Vivid’s and Wilson Audio’s speakers in the future?
i can consider Wilson speakers and i almost did, but i have not had good luck with my connections since most of them are not wilson dealers and i have not found great local deals either. I would love to try Wilson, but it has to be bought at the right price or else i run the risk of losing too much since Wilson changes their models relatively fast. That said, today i had my preliminary conversation in regards to the martin logan neoliths. i have spoken to my connection about them and we are putting something together. It may be ALL OF MY CURRENT gear to be traded in plus money on top in order to swing these speakers. I just need to think about WHICH AMP i need to keep for those speakers since the rest have to go. Big investment and i just need to evaluate everything and think about the how much enjoyment they will give me in relation to the massive amount of money needed to make this happen. I heard those speakers and they did surprise me, but i need to see the room where they will go once i move in a few weeks and if it is feasible to have them in there with enough room to perform correctly. I have also heard mixed opinions from some dealers and audiophiles about the Neoliths. Some say they are not that good and that they prefer the clx speakers which i have owned for a short time and others say they are a massive improvement over anything else they've heard.
whitecamaross as much as i would love to see you follow through on the neolith i can’t help but feel that they might not live up to your expectations. (considering the $$$$$) that is a lot of time and expense and trouble to set this whole thing up . selfishly i want to see it through ,but i would hate to see your efforts and visions go unfulfilled.
i have the m-logan 13a..and i have listened to 11a,15a..they all have the similar martin logan "sound".
none disappoint ( if m-logan sound is what someone is drawn to)
i don’t think the 15a is worth 10 grand more than the 13a imho. i guess it would/might be required only if the listening room is extra large. mine is 15’ by 16’.
will the neoliths be two or three times better than your 15a's? that's the million dollar question.
these beasts will need room to breath. i realize you do not need to be advised of all of this.
but i think as individuals ,we all have imagined at some point where our individual musical chairs would have ended somewhere in the past 25 pages of this thread.
if i stepped in your shoes,my system,comprised of your gear,lol, would be:
the martin logan 15a’s , audio research ref10, pass labs 350.8
i already have a nice meridian 808.2 cd player and pro-ject 12 xtension tt with palo santos cartridge.
at that point i would call it a day and talk to ya in 10 years!! lol
hi Mike, i owned the 15a and 13a speakers and the 13a lasted 12 hours in my rooms before i sold them. They were far inferior to the 15a in my room. I love the 15a speakers but the clx were much better than the 15a. As far as the set up you recommend above, i agree with you with your combination. I have A TREMENDOUS level of respect for the ref 10 preamp. It took this preamp to make me sell the reference 6 and now i am going to sell the luxman 900u. No other preamp is in my radar at this time because to be sincere honest, i am beyond impressed here and don’t care to try another preamp. I will keep going with my amp journey and use my ref 10 as my preamp for all future reviews. I will say it again, there is no better improvement EVER that is bigger than the ref 10 IN MY SYSTEM. I wish i had bought this unit years ago. I am pretty mad i didn’t try it before and enjoyed what i have been hearing now. However, it is better late than never. I am BLOWN AWAY, STUNNED, SHOCKED with the ref 10. One last thing, those of you who believe a dac can do an REAL PREAMPLIFIER's job are really crazy. That is like asking a boy to do a man's job.
Ok guys, here are my listening impressions on day 2 of doing a shootout between the pass labs 350.8 and the xa160.8:
Pass labs xa160.8: Outrageous, cristal clear sound that sounds as if someone went inside my ears and cleaned out my ear canal and left me listening to pure sound with zero distortion.
Pass labs 350.8: Outstanding bottom end, good mids, but not as focused or articulate as the 160.8s. Great highs with good extension. Nothing really missing and if i did not have the 160.8s on hand, i would not know any better.
With that said, NOTICE MY SHOOTOUTS ARE WITH EQUIPMENT ON HAND. My goal going forward will be to sell the component that gets beat by another one here in my home while owning both at the same time. Right now, i feel like the 160.8 has began to distance itself from the 350.8 being more liquid, clean, detailed at lower volumes, etc. Think of the pass 160.8s are just being superior at normal to moderate levels which is were most of us listen at. There is far greater engagement in the sound quality, BUT I can see where the 350.8 would be useful. For example, for movies the 350.8 may have the edge because it has more oomph and better at "swinging". The perfect way to describe both amps is like comparing the exhaust note of a mustang versus the exhaust of a corvette. The vette sounds more refined, more like an "exotic" if that makes sense?
The x350.8 seems to go deeper when called for. It seems to give you a couple of more decibels in the lower registers. It has all the slam needed while the 160.8 goes about its business in a smoother kind of way. The 350.8 goes from 0 to 100mph faster but the sound is somewhat different.
I guess for speakers like your Revel or Dynaudio's , the XA 160.8 may be better and with more reticent speakers like the older Sonus Faber designs, the X350.8 may be better.
pass labs xa160.8: Excellent detail with perhaps some of the best clarity i have ever heard in any amplifier. Amazing coherent sound with ZERO fatigue.
pass labs x350.8: Outstanding soundstage width and depth. Very deep low registers with clean tight bass. Everything is here in my opinion. It can drive just about anything you want. I don’t see any reason to want anything with more power.
That said, i have found that the x350.8 does a better job at giving a bigger soundstage and pushing out music with dynamics. This is an excellent amp for reggae, electronic, classical, and any other music with slam. It has zero issues sorting out complex passages and pushing those out to you. On the other hand, the pass labs xa160.8 would be a better choice for pop, jazz, vocals, etc. Think Diana Krall, Sarah Mchlachlan, adele, tracy chapman, eric clapton, sam smith, paula abdul, etc. They make instruments linger in the air longer and also sustain them without making them fade out fast. Both amps are pretty much designed for different things. Sometimes i love the 350.8 more and then the 160.8 and what i have realized is that the material matters in order to showcase their strengths. i also noticed that over longer listening sessions i can get a little ear fatigue from the 350.8, but this could also be due to the material i play through it and not necessarily the amp. For the money, the 350.8 is indeed a better buy without a doubt. However, some of you (myself included) tend to value the extra finesse and ounce of detail here and there that the class a design can indeed bring to the table. It does suck that it comes at an expensive price. One last thing i wanted to mention is that both amps DO NOT SOUND THE SAME when in class a. The xa160.8 sounds different than the 350.8 when it is within its class a operating range. The biggest advantage of owning the 160.8s is that you can biwire your speakers (which i have not done) which can give you added detail and cohesiveness.
You may want to try the reference 6 preamp. I think you’ll replace your C1100 unless of course you value looks more than the actual sound. To me, audio research is far ahead of many others when it comes to tube preamps. I really feel I won’t be able to replace this preamp. I think it will take another audio research preamp to replace it. If the reference 10se comes out or the ref 11 then I’ll be right there ready to buy. I am willing to bet money that we can bring the best preamps from many manufacturers and I’ll still walk away with this preamp.
Whitecamaross, Few days late on responding to your revelation on the ARC Ref. 10. I am a current owner and lover of the Ref. 10, recently upgraded from the Ref. 6 which is also a fine preamp and easily bested the Ref 5SE where I started my ARC preamp journey. The Ref 10 has been the most transformative component in my hi-end journey with a twist, more on that later. The Ref 10’s changes to my system includes providing greater transparency, more inner detailing, accurate 3 dimensional specifity, timbral accuracy, superb bass definition and dynamics, and most importantly brings music to life. Its impact can be heard and experienced at low levels and at ear piercing levels - I can’t get enough of the sound. The twist, I recently took my Ref. 10 to another level by changing out the stock Sovtek 6H30PI and Sovtek 6550WE with the Reflector 6H30P-DR’s and Winged C SED 6550C’s. Both tubes hard to find but worthwhile if you can find them. The change in tubes is comparable to going from Ref 5SE to a Ref 10 or even more. The only negative is the cost (4k) to upgrade the tubes and their limited availability.
In your journey, you have provided us with some great insight with not only the amplifiers you have auditioned but also with your speakers and preamp trials. I have owned and listened to some of the items you have reported on. My amplifier journey included McIntosh, Prima Luna, ARC Components Ref. 75 to GS150 and currently the Ref 250SE with the tube upgrades as described above. BTW the Ref 150SE is more musical than the GS150 which is suppose to be the same amp minus the modern facade of the GS150. I opted for the greater power of the Ref 250SE to drive my speakers and it has rewarded me with unbelievable sound paired with Ref 10 preamp. I also owned the ML Renaissance 15A’s for a short stint and agree with you on their sound and your trial with the 13A’s - I was equally disappointed. Thanks again for your insight and continue to keep us intrigued on your discoveries.
The change from the 13a to the 15a is massive. It’s like someone injected steroids to the sound. My curiosity is if the change in sound from the 15a to the neoliths will be massive as well or not. I have heard both but not in the same room. I’m close to striking a deal on the neoliths but I’m not 100% there yet. I need to really think about the move and also how hard it will be for me to move out of them when I am ready to part ways with them. Or will I ever part ways ? Right now the only component that has secured a spot in my home is the audio research 10. Until another preamp can walk through the door and blow it away, it will continue to be my reference component.
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