My Long List of Amplifiers and My Personal Review of Each!
So I have been in a long journey looking to find the best amplifiers for my martin logan montis. As you know, the match between an amplifier and speakers has to be a good "marriage" and needs to be blend exquisitely. Right now, I think I might have found the best sounding amplifier for martin logan. I have gone through approximately 34-36 amplifiers in the past 12 months. Some of these are:
Bryston ST, SST, SST2 series NAD M25 PARASOUND HALO PARASOUND CLASSIC KRELL TAS KRELL KAV 500 KRELL CHORUS ROTEL RMB 1095 CLASSE CT 5300 CLASSE CA 2200 CLASSE CA 5200 MCINTOSH MC 205 CARY AUDIO CINEMA 7 OUTLAW AUDIO 755 LEXICON RX7 PASS LABS XA 30.8 BUTLER AUDIO 5150 ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005
With all that said, the amplifiers I mentioned above are the ones that in my opinion are worth mentioning. To make a long story short, there is NO 5 CHANNEL POWER AMP that sounds as good as a 3ch and 2ch amplifier combination. i have done both experiments and the truth is that YOU DO lose details and more channel separation,etc when you select a 5 channel power amplifier of any manufacturer. My recollection of what each amp sounded like is as follows:
ATI SIGNATURE SERIES 6005 (great power and amazing soundstage. Very low noise floor, BUT this amplifiers NEEDS TO BE cranked up in order to fully enjoy it. If you like listening at low volume levels or somewhat moderate, you are wasting your time here. This amp won’t sound any different than many other brands out there at this volume. The bass is great, good highs although they are a bit bright for my taste)
NAD M25 (very smooth, powerful, but somewhat thin sounding as far as bass goes) Bryston sst2(detailed, good soundstage, good power, but can be a little forward with certain speakers which could make them ear fatiguing at loud volumes)
Krell (fast sounding, nice bass attack, nice highs, but some detail does get lost with certain speakers)
rotel (good amp for the money, but too bright in my opinion)
cary audio (good sound overall, very musical, but it didn’t have enough oomph)
parasound halo (good detail, great bass, but it still holds back some background detail that i can hear in others)
lexicon (very laid back and smooth. huge power, but if you like more detail or crisper highs, this amp will disappoint you)
McIntosh mc205 (probably the worst multichannel amp given its price point. it was too thin sounding, had detail but lacked bass.
butler audio (good amplifier. very warm and smooth sweet sounding. i think for the money, this is a better amp than the parasound a51)
pass labs (very VERY musical with excellent bass control. You can listen to this for hours and hours without getting ear fatigue. however, it DOES NOT do well in home theater applications if all you have is a 2 channel set up for movies. The midrange gets somewhat "muddy" or very weak sounding that you find yourself trying to turn it up.
classe audio (best amplifier for multi channel applications. i simply COULDNT FIND a better multi channel amplifier PERIOD. IT has amazing smoothness, amazing power and good bass control although i would say krell has much better bass control)
Update: The reviews above were done in January 2015. Below is my newest update as of October 2016:
PS AUDIO BHK 300 MONOBLOCKS: Amazing amps. Tons of detail and really amazing midrange. the bass is amazing too, but the one thing i will say is that those of you with speakers efficiency of 87db and below you will not have all the "loudness" that you may want from time to time. These amps go into protection mode when using a speaker such as the Salon, but only at very loud levels. Maybe 97db and above. If you don’t listen to extreme crazy levels, these amps will please you in every way.
Plinius Odeon 7 channel amp: This is THE BEST multichannel amp i have ever owned. Far , but FAR SUPERIOR to any other multichannel amp i have owned. In my opinion it destroyed all of the multichannel amps i mentioned above and below. The Odeon is an amp that is in a different tier group and it is in a league of its own. Amazing bass, treble and it made my center channel sound more articulate than ever before. The voices where never scrambled with the action scenes. It just separated everything very nicely.
Theta Dreadnaught D: Good detailed amp. Looks very elegant, has a pleasant sound, but i found it a tad too bright for my taste. I thought it was also somewhat "thin" sounding lacking body to the music. could be that it is because it is class d?
Krell Duo 300: Good amp. Nice and detailed with enough power to handle most speakers out there. I found that it does have a very nice "3d" sound through my electrostatics. Nothing to fault here on this amp. Mark Levinson 532H: Great 2 channel amp. Lots of detail, amazing midrange which is what Mark Levinson is known for. It sounds very holographic and will please those of you looking for more detail and a better midrange. As far as bass, it is there, but it is not going to give you the slam of a pass labs 350.5 or JC1s for example. It is great for those that appreciate classical music, instrumental, etc, but not those of you who love tons of deep bass.
It is articulate sounding too Krell 7200: Plenty of detail and enough power for most people. i found that my rear speakers contained more information after installed this amp. One thing that i hated is that you must use xlr cables with this amp or else you lose most of its sound performance when using RCA’s.
Krell 402e: Great amp. Very powerful and will handle any speaker you wish. Power is incredible and with great detail. That said, i didn’t get all the bass that most reviewers mentioned. I thought it was "ok" in regards to bass. It was there, but it didn’t slam me to my listening chair.
Bryston 4B3: Good amp with a complete sound. I think this amp is more laid back than the SST2 version. I think those of you who found the SST2 version of this amp a little too forward with your speakers will definitely benefit from this amp’s warmth. Bryston has gone towards the "warm" side in my opinion with their new SST3 series. As always, they are built like tanks. I wouldn’t call this amp tube-like, but rather closer to what the classe audio delta 2 series sound like which is on the warm side of things.
Parasound JC1s: Good powerful amps. Amazing low end punch (far superior bass than the 402e). This amp is the amp that i consider complete from top to bottom in regards to sound. Nothing is lacking other than perhaps a nicer chassis. Parasound needs to rework their external appearance when they introduce new amps. This amp would sell much more if it had a revised external appearance because the sound is a great bang for the money. It made my 800 Nautilus scream and slam. Again, amazing low end punch.
Simaudio W7: Good detailed amp. This amp reminds me a lot of the Mark Levinson 532h. Great detail and very articulate. I think this amp will go well with bookshelves that are ported in order to compensate for what it lacks when it comes to the bass. That doesn’t mean it has no bass, but when it is no Parasound JC1 either. Pass labs 350.5: Wow, where do i begin? maybe my first time around with the xa30.8 wasn’t as special as it was with this monster 350.5. It is just SPECTACULAR sounding with my electrostatics. The bass was THE BEST BASS i have ever heard from ANY amp period. The only amp that comes close would be the jC1s. It made me check my settings to make sure the bass was not boosted and kept making my jaw drop each time i heard it. It totally destroyed the krell 402e in every regard. The krell sounded too "flat" when compared to this amp. This amp had amazing mirange with great detail up top. In my opinion, this amp is the best bang for the money. i loved this amp so much that i ended up buying the amp that follows below.
Pass labs 250.8: What can i say here. This is THE BEST STEREO AMP i have ever heard. This amp destroys all the amps i have listed above today to include the pass labs 350.5. It is a refined 350.5 amp. It has more 3d sound which is something the 350.5 lacked. It has a level of detail that i really have never experienced before and the bass was amazing as well. I really thought it was the most complete power amplifier i have ever heard HANDS DOWN. To me, this is a benchmark of an amplifier. This is the amp that others should be judged by. NOTHING is lacking and right now it is the #1 amplifier that i have ever owned.
My current amps are Mcintosh MC601s: i decided to give these 601s a try and they don’t disappoint. They have great detail, HUGE soundstage, MASSIVE power and great midrange/highs. The bass is great, but it is no pass labs 250.8 or 350.5. As far as looks, these are the best looking amps i have ever owned. No contest there. i gotta be honest with you all, i never bought mcintosh monos before because i wasn’t really "wowed" by the mc452, but it could have been also because at that time i was using a processor as a preamp which i no longer do. Today, i own the Mcintosh C1100 2 chassis tube preamp which sounds unbelievable. All the amps i just described above have been amps that i auditioned with the C1100 as a preamp. The MC601s sound great without a doubt, but i will say that if you are looking for THE BEST sound for the money, these would not be it. However, Mcintosh remains UNMATCHED when it comes to looks and also resale value. Every other amp above depreciates much faster than Mcintosh.
That said, my future purchase (when i can find a steal of a deal) will be the Pass labs 350.8. I am tempted to make a preliminary statement which is that i feel this amp could be THE BEST stereo amp under 30k dollars. Again, i will be able to say more and confirm once i own it. I hope this update can help you all in your buying decisions!
@viber6 Thanks for your take dear, and it makes a lot of sense. However, using my ML390S straight into my X350.5 Pass is a PITA - re-plugging the XLRs and setting the the ML390S from Fixed to Variable (output), and all back again for vinyl listening. Most of my classic music is on old vinyl, as here in SA there's next to no interest in this kind of music by the Black majority of customers i.e. no CDs. 'Broadband' is "narrowband" at the best of times. Therefore streaming is useless in most areas.
The difference of bypassing the pre, however is most noticeable, as I'd mentioned, so now I'm stuck with a conundrum - to change or not to change, this is the question? 🤔 💐 Michélle 🇿🇦
Looks similar to what I went through years ago with antique fishing reels. Had the largest collection in the world at one point until the crash in 2008 put an end to the fun. after getting married shortly after that, doubt she would have agreed with my hobby costs, lol. Having a passion and the things you learn along the way are so much fun.
Thanks so much for taking the time to recreate and share this WC. Moving to watch your journey via pics that even pre date this thread. Enjoyed the introductory comments as well, which resonated. rest well.
Ok guys I hope you all enjoy this video. I spent hours trying to organize my pictures and putting them in order for continuity plus adding captions etc. I hope you all enjoy it and hopefully YouTube doesn't take it down.
Vinyl is often soft sounding, especially with many cartridges like Koetsu and soft sounding phono stages like Pass, examples of which I have owned. If it is already soft, then bypassing the line stage will bring out more clarity. Digital is often hard and harsh by comparison, so I understand why many people who listen to those harsh processed recordings do prefer softer preamps like Lux, Pass, etc. With my digital classical recordings which may be slightly harsh at times, I want all the clarity I can get, so I don't use a line stage preamp.
I look forward to seeing WC's baby pictures of his past equipment.
Speedbump6, the DCS Vivaldi is a clear, detailed component, so keep the whipped cream away. But pecan adds more authentic flavor which is like getting more details of that flavor. Pecan is pure, brownies are pure, but whipped cream by its nature, dilutes and softens all the pecan and brownie flavor. The tea connoisseur takes it pure, without whipped cream or sugar.
Forget the d’aganstino, I’m looking for a sweet deal on a Vilvadi. And I’d be happy to share some brownies with whipped cream on top while we watch the video.
Forget the d’aganstino, I’m looking for a sweet deal on a Vilvadi. And I’d be happy to share some brownies with whipped cream on top while we watch the video.
Hi All, Tonights video will be about my journey from the very beginning of this thread. I know i have written so much about everything i have owned, but you all have not really had visuals of all this equipment and well i have put together a collage with over 200 pictures of all the different set ups i have owned and the different rooms i have been in (i have moved 4 times). The point of this video is to share a little more with you all and not be criticized about me having one amplifier on top of the other or cables being on the floor, etc, etc. I want to simply show you and open my door a little more to you all. It took me almost 3 hours to put it together so i hope some of you can appreciate this. Stay tuned for the video later tonight and while you are at it, just grab a beer, vodka, tea, etc. Sit back, relax, enjoy and i think this will also will make some of you go: " oh there is the simaudio 860 he talked about, ohh i remember about him talking about that Plinius Odeon in the beginning; ohh that is the boulder 2060 that he rated as the worse amp he has owned", that is the amp i bought from him, etc, etc. That is what i am hoping you all can take away from this and obviously i hope you can find it entertaining because i will also add a little commentary about me.
Hard for me to believe, what I'd said on the subject, going straight into my amp, turns out somethings have changed, - I was WRONG. 😣
IT DOES SOUND BETTER WITHOUT PREAMP - now at least.
I hadn't tried this for ages because I'm also playing vinyl. But somehow, some things like: bias reset, DC offset reset, differt XLR to amp ICs (Transparent Ultra), must have done it?
In this case BETTER means more clarity, more air, more focus, different (more correct) tonality? And all not quite so subtle either.
The predicament... how to deal with all my vinyl?!?
If I can have some pecans with those brownies, I’m all in. Yes, I’ve heard great products sound less than great in bad matchups. There is no such thing as best, just best in this case. Also I do believe that in some of these cases you tube does no favors and makes it sound worse than it really is in person
Seriously, none of the 3 preamps sounded unpleasant, so I think whipped cream is more apt than sour cream. Whipped cream smooths everything over, as I like my chocolate brownie pure with more intense flavor rather than with whipped cream. But sour cream may not mix well with certain foods. The problem with added electronic stages or ones that have more flavoring, is that some sour cream may be added. That's why I go for unadulterated purity--often not obtainable, but I strive for it.
I enjoy the hearing exercise of WC's videos, especially when he tests us to see which unnamed combo we like and why. No bias, just challenging evaluations, and fun.
WC asks what we all hear and prefer. I do exactly that. Maybe you don't care about accuracy, but WC values it to some extent, so I am sure he values my input. But he doesn't not want any negativity, which you are still exhibiting.
Wow viber6. Don’t pull any punches. Say what really think. Are you sure it was whip cream, maybe it was sour cream because those comments didn’t seem so sweet to me, lol
Techno_dude, If you like whipped cream blurring of sound, then the Lux preamp is closer to that than the Dag Momentum HD preamp. I had guessed that #1 in the last video was no preamp at all, just the DCS + Gryphon, because of its more transparent and detailed sound. So when WC revealed that #1 was the Dag HD, I was impressed. You have to be familiar with live, unamplified sound to realize that the Dag HD accuracy is closer to the truth of natural, unamplified sound, if you sit close where the microphones are. But if you sit further away, the live sound is rolled off in HF and smoothed over, so the Lux gives you that type of sound. But since most recordings are made with the mikes "hearing" the sound close up, it is not a valid assessment to say that the Lux is the more truthful/natural. Most rock/pop recordings are artificial and harsh when played very loud, so I understand how people who mostly listen to these recordings might prefer the smoothing over that the Lux preamp offers.
The Ayre preamp #2 was an overpriced dog drowning in whipped cream. I even preferred #3 the Lux for its greater clarity than the Ayre. WC said that the Ayre had better bass, but I couldn't evaluate that from playback of the video on my computer, and the music had little bass anyway.
You can’t do that Jay, the butter particles from the popcorn would affect the diaelectric value of your cables. Get a grip, lol. On the other hand I heard that the fat molecules from a hotdog machine will help disperse the sound waves more evenly by breaking up the negative diffuse energy found in some conversations.
We are all supposed to be grown people here. My experimentation, trials and journey are separate than what others may go through. I am starting to feel that i am having waaaay more fun with this than some of you. Why? because some people take this hobby with a bit of OCD:
"this cable is curled up too much
the power cord has dust
the outlet is hanging too low so it picks up interference from the floor
My amplifiers are on all the time which means i am creating more wear and tear on the amplifier than i need
The overhead lights shine too much on the speakers which gives me a headache making my listening experience terrible.
The woofers from other speakers in my room damage the sound (not sure how dealers do demos then when they have many speakers in the room often times?)
To me that is going a bit too overboard...My personality is not THAT OCD when it comes to this hobby. If i were to take things to that extreme, i would probably just turn this room back into a full theater by adding another row of chairs, stars in the ceiling, a small popcorn machine and just enjoy watching "frozen" with my daughter.
Jay, Consider me very interested in your Ethernet cable escapades as I just put a Bricasti M3 w/network card in my system and have no USB connections just Ethernet.
"
WC’s last preamplifier shootout may influence a little the audio high
end business. There will surely be more Luxman C-900u demand by serious
buyers, less Dan D’Agostino HD and Ayre KXR Twenty preamps will be sold." If you are a potential buyer looking for a preamp in this price range and if you let whitecamaross's experimentation drive your decision instead of using your own research, that would be pretty unfortunate. I sure hope people are not that gullible.
You all ever wondered if Ethernet cables make a real difference? well.... I want to know what my $1,000 Shunyata Sigma Ethernet has to say about this once i plug it in... Stay tuned...
i said it on the previous page, i have not started to change cables out, add power conditioners, etc on the momentum stuff. That will come so we can gauge things better.
It is absolutely about synergy; everything matters. Components, speakers, cables, etc. Jay knows that and has been saying that. Try not to focus on just one component independent of others. And of course, the only way to know is to try it in your room.
Tahnks Jay for continuing to post your comments. I look forward to the XLR changes you are experimenting with
thanks for the comments above. As i said before, this is system matching and i want to learn as well as share with you all. Last night, i did more testing and swapped the silver eclipse 8 xlr that i was using on the video to go from the dac into the preamps with the cardas clear beyond xlr and that totally changed the synergy of the Gryphon with the Momentum HD for the better. More tests will come with time and i will also be testing some "audience" xlr's soon. i heard great things about this manufacturer so i am being loaned a set to try. i am very excited. More to come !
Hmmm, I’d hold off on that thinking. If nothing else I’d say that what jays experiments have shown is that it definitely, absolutely, depends. It depends on the matchup. I’d bet anything that in the right matchup, the Luxman may not fare so well compared to a different preamp. The question may not be what’s the best x or y, but more like what’s the best combo of x and ys that work together, and achieve the sound I like the best. There’s so many variables. We ourselves are the biggest variable. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I know I have heard so many different sounds that I can pick pieces, or in entirety, that I like. Why force myself into just one? Then you add in the factor, that the next guy likes something different, and I’ve seen some that are 100percent looking for a certain sound and hone in on that. At least for those, the choices are a bit easier. Having read back through much of this thread, I’ve learned that during Jays journey, his tastes have changed. Maybe what he thought about something, isn’t the way he feels about it now. I love Captain Crunch, but I bet I’d get sick of it if I ate it every day
WC’s last preamplifier shootout may influence a little the audio high end business. There will surely be more Luxman C-900u demand by serious buyers, less Dan D’Agostino HD and Ayre KXR Twenty preamps will be sold.
I’ m sure WC is already feeling the pressure by angry readers and dealers... Save your hard earned money guys.
Right, dasign. Also, live processed rock/pop uses crummy PA speakers and amps that are vastly inferior to WC's system. My best live acoustic jazz experience was at Preservation Hall in New Orleans in 2005 before Katrina. It was a small cave with only 3 benches seating a few people. I was up close, 5 feet away. This is comparable to many recording sessions where microphones are that close. There are spot mikes inches away from brass and near drum sets.
I agree with your comments for musical track selection. It is important to minimize usage of heavily processed music (i.e. Pop). Another musical option would be acoustic jazz. Regarding bass, I do not think we should expect too much accurate reproduction due to the limits of the recording gear/YouTube. I’ve listened to some of the tracks selected by WC on my system (London Grammar’s ´Hey Now’ as an exemple) and bass content is not reproduced to its full justice, which is quite normal.
Generally speaking, I really enjoy WC’s musical picks (Fink was a new artist discovery for me).
The guitar and voice recording on the video at 82 dB was a test mainly of mid bass, midrange and HF. I hope you keep using this recording for the upcoming tests which you outlined, since it was all impressive. For bass fullness and control, other recordings would be more useful.
Your recorded music is highly processed, and that amplified processed music in live performance is not a real reference. You don't like such live music, for good reason. Unamplified classical music provides a true reference for the reality of natural sound. I can recommend exciting short classical pieces you would instantly enjoy--the last part of the Rossini William Tell Overture (the Lone Ranger theme), the 1st movement of the Beethoven 5th Symphony, the last movement of the Beethoven Moonlight Piano Sonata (fast and many dynamic outbursts), etc.
Luxman M-900u is all I will ever need for my modest Dynaudio Special 40s. May I just say the synergy is mind blowing here. No need for more power in this case, I simply get more than needed. Where I can have fun is by playing with preamps and dacs, and alter the taste of the final result.
Sure that amp has enough juice to drive a pair of Sasha DAWs and will satisfy most audiophiles, exception made for guys like WC who crave for limit breaking bass and dynamics...
I suppose within the rarified air you are playing in, synergy among components may become more important than the component itself.
Since we are spending all of your money on private bands and singing chipmunks... before all is said and done you probably should throw one of these into the mix:
That’s great that the less expensive Luxman sounded better than the more expensive Dag and Ayre. Awesome result. And also WC very clearly stated that although #1 had more clarity than the Lux #3, that clarity aspect was irrelevant because the Luxman was WC’s overwhelming winner on sound quality. Sound quality wins, not clarity when it doesn’t sound as good.
I want to just hint one thing here without giving too much away: NO OTHER COMBINATION OF AMP/PREAMP has ever ever given me the kind of fullness, muscularity and bottom end control that i get from the momentum combo... I actually now have MORE BASS from my Sasha DAW than what i had from the Alexia 1 i owned. I will expand on this later on this week. For now, that is all you need to know.
As far as live music, i gotta be honest, maybe in my humble opinion too, i have never really enjoyed a live event because to me everything sounds like an echo in the arena. I hear like a bunch of speakers going off and the music being forced into the air and 9/10 we are never in the sweet spot (if there is such thing in an arena). Plus people won’t shut the hell up either so it is kinda hard to appreciate a live event unless you are P. Diddy who can hire the band to play in his house...
As far as the Dag S250 being inferior to the Gryphon, that is still yet to be determined to be honest. It is way too early to deduct that. It is a special power amplifier in so many ways and has beautiful tonality. There will be many shootouts such as:
DCS Vivaldi direct into Gryphon/Momentum S250
Gryphon/DCS Dac Vs Full momentum amp/preamp (dcs dac as source)
DCS/Gryphon/Momentum Preamp Vs Full momentum amp/preamp (dcs dac as source)
Then comes cable swaps on the momentum since i have already nailed what the gryphon and dcs like for cabling and last but not least lets not forget about using my Niagara 5000 on the momentum combo.
I honestly did not expect for this shootout to have so much reaction as it did.
As you say in your excellent video, these tests are always plagued by ambiguity about the true reference. I personally did not care for the emphasized upper mids on the piano for #1, but this might be exactly what the engineer put on the master - like Lyle Lovett recordings.
You have gone this far down the rabbit hole - need to take that last step. Hire a small band to play in your room and record them to analog tape using two microphones placed where the Wilsons stand. Meditate and commit the live sound to memory. I believe the Harbeth designer brings people in to sing in his listening room when tuning the speakers. Crazy hobby!
I started reading this thread from it’s start in 2016 last night. I started looking up and reading reviews on every new best thing that Jay came across. Pretty fun do that really and seeing how the reviews compared to what Jay found. Five hours later I started and the last post and started reading back, as I was intrested in his thinking about how he chose the sashas that I just bought. After three hours I had not yet gotten to that story yet, but I learned that if I wait another couple of weeks, or not much longer, there will indeed be a new next best thing that I need to research. Plus I still have close to three years of history here to read about and discover some more jewels. The journey will never end until or unless the world runs out of products to discover. Then there will be the endless combinations that havnt tried before. Add in our constantly evolving tastes and we find more than enough options to outlast either our energy, money, or time. Should be great fun trying though!
I am impressed that the Dag preamp was the most transparent and detailed with the Gryphon. Since you have small reservations about the Dag, I think the most interesting shootout would be Dag + DCS + Gryphon (or Dag amp) vs DCS alone + Gryphon (or Dag amp). Your preference for the Lux preamp means that you still like some flavoring, and you may not be quite as ready to accept the clarity and naturalness of bypassing any preamp. My proposed shootout should help you resolve this issue. Perhaps the Dag preamp has close to the purity of no preamp, and has the advantage of giving you extra dynamics so you could have total satisfaction at high SPL's as well as low-medium SPL's. Use that wonderful recording of the guitar and voice to do the next shootouts.
The problem with using the Dag amp is that it may be inferior to the Gryphon. I believe your Gryphon is the best amp for purity and most other things, so you would be comparing the softer Lux preamp + accurate Gryphon amp with the accurate Dag preamp + a softer Dag amp, a kind of apple/orange mixed comparison. I think I remember your shootout with Dag Momentum amp against others, and it was softer than the Gryphon and even the best Pass XS300.
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