I’ve read on here much over the past couple years about DACs. Presently, I am using the internal Apple DAC built into the G5 desktop computer. I have read extensively about its limitations and after I get Satellite Room #1 operative, I will experiment with a budget DAC upgrade: maybe a Gary Nixon unit or a Benchmark USB DAC1 has been around for a while and continues to hold up with high resale price. All for a very good reason - it is pretty close to as good as it gets (at any price). I can confirm the older model does a good job with Toslink. It seems to work as claimed - feed it any old crap signal and you get pristine sound out - immune to input source as far as my tin ears can tell (although some "golden ears" will claim differently) |
I'm just going to give you some fast responses based on a quick read of your lengthy post. The cheapest solution would be to run a second set of speaker wires to another pair of speakers. Not sure why you are thinking efficient speakers unless your amp is really low-powered. You could also interface a speaker switching box as made by Bryston (kind of pricey, but no sonic losses in my experience) and turn off and on each set independent of each other. You'll need an Airport Base Station for your G5 if you choose wireless. The Apple accessory antenna(I believe it may be discontinued) for the g5 towers is absolutely worthless in my experience. Do a search online and you may be able to find some amplified alternatives should you need to use your tower as a remote instead of a base. If you connect the g5 directly to the base station by ethernet cable you don't have to be concerned with buying a card and antenna for it (the base station would be all you need to stream music and to network with your card-carrying iBook). You would need an Airport Express as a receiver if you plan on just buying a DAC with optical input (you'd also need a mini-toslink to go from the AE to your DAC and that DAC must have toslink - Apple makes a stereo-kit for the AE which includes a Monster mini-toslink adapter - there may be alternatives as well). Alternatively you can use the much less than desirable analogue output from the AE to go into another amplifier to accessory speakers, or just use amplified speakers and do away with another box. Not recommended as far as the analog signal from the AE is concerned though. Alternatively you could get a music server device such as a Transporter (which has a DAC) or a Squeezebox or other such device. They'd allow you to interface with a remote control and see your selections AT the location of the actual device, rather than just at your computer.
Hope that helps. |
Sorry for the long post, probably should have asked this in stages, but I want to get an overview of the hardware I’ll need. Thanks for the replies.
[no edit feature for forum posts(?), I see crazy typos in my original past].
Thanks for the confirmation on the DAC1; when the times comes it is on the shortlist
Efficient speakers only because I have 4ohm speakers that demand lots of juice…if I upgrade the speakers in my main room and move the 4ohm speakers to a Satellite room, long wire runs (even with heavy gage wire) could demand more juice than the amp can output.
So, the Apple Extreme is NOT recommended for this application?
Simple solution for the getting the first pair of remote speakers up and running:
I just buy an Airport Express base Station and an Ethernet cable.
Connect AE to the G5 with the Ethernet cable (no other hardware/needed?).
Run speaker wire to a Satellite Room #1 with a pair of monitors.
At that point, will I be able to remotely control iTunes playing on the G5 from my iBook (with AE card) in the Satellite Room?
-Lovegasoline |
Efficient speakers only because I have 4ohm speakers that demand lots of juice…if I upgrade the speakers in my main room and move the 4ohm speakers to a Satellite room, long wire runs (even with heavy gage wire) could demand more juice than the amp can output.
Understood. So, the Apple Extreme is NOT recommended for this application? The Airport Extreme is not recommended in using the line output option. That sounds terrible to my ears...unless you have low expectations of the satellite system and are only listening while doing other things I would not go that route personally. If you use the digital output option to an external DAC you'll be getting better results, IMO, depending on the DAC you use. Again, this is only an option via optical/mini-toslink and NOT via other connective routes. Simple solution for the getting the first pair of remote speakers up and running:
I just buy an Airport Express base Station and an Ethernet cable.
Connect AE to the G5 with the Ethernet cable (no other hardware/needed?).
Run speaker wire to a Satellite Room #1 with a pair of monitors. If you run speaker wire from your amp to another room you do not need anything else but a pair of speakers to hook them to. If you are referring to powered speakers (speakers with amplifiers integrated into them) then you would still need a receiving unit in the remote room. This unit could be an Airport Express with line outputs as I suggested sounds just OK, but would not meet with high-end expectations, IMO. It could also be a unit like a Squeezebox, which actually displays the songs at the unit and has a remote control, or better yet, a Transporter, which actually integrates a decent DAC. Otherwise you would need an external DAC to take the optical feed from your Airport Express. At that point, will I be able to remotely control iTunes playing on the G5 from my iBook (with AE card) in the Satellite Room? You could use a remote with a Squeezebox or a Transporter, but with the Airport Express options you would need to be controlling your selections from your base computer, or from your laptop if it is properly networked via the Airport card you indicated it has. I'm not sure about that networking interface since I do not use it myself. Perhaps someone else could advise here. With the Squeezebox or Transporter they have their own remotes and you see the selections on the respective units. They hook up wirelessly to your computer/music library (on your external hard drive you indicated you had). |
jax2- let me correct some of your statements. 1) you don't need a squeezebox or transporter to get remote control capabilities from the mac. actually you are wasting your $$$ if you get the squeezebox and you could do better by getting different equipment for the same $$$ as the transporter. 2) you don't want to use the monster toslink to rca cable since you will not get the quality of the music that you want. 3) you don't need to use only the toslink connection to the dac.
here is a recommendation that i have setup for many people (my self included) that preferred this setup to a sooloos or qsonix setup (sounds better and saves thousands of $$$).
* mac computer - any mac will do - it can be your workhorse mac if needed
* airport express - wired or wireless
* good quality toslink cable with toslink adapter with a longer stem
* good quality jitter reduction device (toslink from computer or AE)
* good quality digital coax cable (or aes if equipped)
* good quality external dac with input connections that match the jitter device
* good quality cables from the dac into the preamp
by using a jitter device, you will be cleaning up the signal before it reaches the dac. also, by using this setup, you can go out and buy the best dac that you can afford. you are not limited to only toslink or usb connections. your best dacs don't use usb right now anyway and coax is a preferred connection.
for remote control, don't limit yourself to a couple lines on a squeezebox or transporter. if you use the above setup, all you need is an iphone or ipod touch to connect to the mac and pick the playlists/songs/albums/internet radio stations that are linked on your mac. these devices give you a graphical user interface with coverflow/album artwork/etc... all for free. apple has the remote app you can download. |
jax2- let me correct some of your statements. 1) you don't need a squeezebox or transporter to get remote control capabilities from the mac. actually you are wasting your $$$ if you get the squeezebox and you could do better by getting different equipment for the same $$$ as the transporter. 2) you don't want to use the monster toslink to rca cable since you will not get the quality of the music that you want. 3) you don't need to use only the toslink connection to the dac. I'm a bit confused by some of your post. I think you may be misunderstanding my responses. Since you said you are "correcting" me, I'd like to respond: 1.)I made it clear my response was quick, brief and off the top of my head. Basic advice. I don't think I said that a Squeezebox or TP were the ONLY solutions. If anything I said actually could be interpreted that way, it was not my intention to suggest that 2.) I also suggested that there were alternatives to the mini-toslink that Apple provides in their kit (Monster). 3.) This is news to me, so I'd like to learn something here - If you don't use the optical connection from the AE, what other way can you feed the digital stream to an external DAC? As far as I know the only way to stream digital with an AE is via Toslink. As far as your recommendation for a setup - It looks like a fine way to go and I use something similar in my office system (though I go wired via USB there). Again, since the poster stated he already has a G5 tower he intends to use I did not suggest other computers, and I'd reiterate my warning that the antenna used for wireless for that computer is utterly worthless in my experience (which is why I use an Airport Base Station). The reason I suggested what I did is that I use a Modwright Transporter and the sound from that via wireless or via a wired feed from a transport is better than any digital source I've heard before and surpasses anything I've owned. I believe the DAC in the stock TP is the same one use in some of the very expensive Esoteric players. There are surely many other solutions, some cheaper, some more expensive. Mine is probably not what most consider a "budget" solution. Pick your poison. There are many ways to make it work. Depending on what standards/expectations you have, you may or may not be disappointed in any given approach. In my limited experience using the AE modules via a toslink connection to external DAC's I've consistently been disappointed with the sound. That's not to say that it is not possible that someone else might get better results, or may be happy with the results I was getting. Different strokes and all that. |
jax2- the only reason i said what i said is because your initial reply indicated that the poster "needed" to do certain things. IMO, there are much better alternatives to what you stated. let me clarify:
to get wireless, there are many options: wireless card in a tower, wireless built in the new macs, airport extreme or any other wireless router, or even a WAP (wireless access point). i use the wap myself. on craigslist or ebay, you can pick them up for around $10. the wap ties into your network (if you don't have 1, you can create 1 using a small 5 port 10/100/1000 hub). you can get these for the cheap, i can even sell you 1 for $10.
as for the squeezebox or transporter, the screen interface is terrible. i have a friend who sells them. the squeezebox doesn't do anything more than the AE but costs $200 more. the transporter is much better than the squeezebox but for the $$$, you can do better. (also, i don't think this unit uses the same dac as in the esorteric units).
i agree with you when using a connection from the AE/squeezebox to the preamp is terrible. and i mentioned in my thread above the option of using a coax or aes cable into an external dac is using a jitter device between a computer and the dac. the optical cable decouples the computer or AE device and the jitter device allows you to use the better cable connections to a dac. also, until they come out with a dac that has comparable quality using a usb connection compared to coax, i would stay away from usb. the new audio research dac7 might be the 1st.
as for remote control of the music, using the iphone or ipod touch blows away using a squeezebox or transporter. you get a full graphical user interface, album art, page of info on all songs/albums/artists with easy scrolling. all for free when using these devices and itunes on a mac.
also, when hooking up a second pair of speakers in a remote room from 1 receiver using an old yamaha, how are you going to control the source, output levels, speaker switching? depending on how old it is, you probably can't. if it has a multi-source and multi-zone capabilities, then it would work. also, when hooking up multiple speakers to 1 receiver that the amp compensates for the impedance that is presented to the receiver. the impedance could drop in half and that could be a bad thing. |
jax2- the only reason i said what i said is because your initial reply indicated that the poster "needed" to do certain things. IMO, there are much better alternatives to what you stated. let me clarify: etc... I believe I've already responded by explaining my initial post. My experience with the AE and Squeezebox have been far less than stellar, and certainly would not lead me to wanting to use either in any kind of critical listening. For a system you listen to while doing other things they'd be just fine, IMHO, YMMV. I completely agree, that the SlimDevices remote interface is not very good, especially in comparison to iTunes. As far as other wireless solutions; the reason I recommend and use an Airport Base Station is the setup interface is easy and intuitive. It does not require multiple calls to someone in a call center in India with a script. The reason I did not recommend using an alternative internal wireless card for the poster's G5 tower is because the issues around signal transmission have something to do with the all-aluminum body of that computer as I understand it. There are some aftermarket companies making antennas for it, and hopefully Mac has addressed the issue by now. I have a g5 2.7 dual-processor model and a working AirPort card and their rare stock antenna. That setup is utterly worthless and will not transmit a signal 20 feet. I don't know if a different internal card would make any difference, and again, you'd be losing Apple's intuitive and simple interface in setup (the same interface you've praised for their iTunes remote abilities). The Slimdevices Transporter uses a AKM AK4396 multi-bit delta-sigma DAC. AKM DACs are used in the Gryphon Mikado and the Esoteric D-05. Again, AFAIK the only source of digital streaming from an AE is optical (toslink). The other connections do not stream digital signals. That is unless the design has changed substantially from the two units I own. Have you used a coax cable into a DAC with an AE? |
the AE hookup is not different than what you get with the transporter. all the AE does is to accept a signal wired or wireless from a central computer. that is exactly what the transporter does. so if you think that the AE device is inferior to the transporter in that function, you need to explain why because they both accept "bits" from the network.
like i said above, the output straight from an AE device into a preamp sounds like crap. also, going from an AE device into an external dac sounds better (no different than the transporter device if the dacs are equal). again, there is no difference on what the 2 setups accomplish, it all matters what type of equipment you are using.
i agree with you on the transporter sounds better than an AE device going straight to a preamp. i don't agree with you on that the transporter is the end all setup for critical listening. i also disagree with you on that you can't use an AE device for critical listening.
you also missed what i said in my thread regarding wireless setups and the AE toslink.
get a good WAP device to send wireless signals throughout your home. if you think the card on a g5 mac is crap, great, use a wap device. i got a motorola wap on craigslist for $10 that all my computers, iphone, and ipod touch communicate thru, 3 story house, and in my backyard.
as for the AE/toslink to a dac, you missed my mention of the jitter device. you go "toslink" from the AE to the jitter device, then use "coax" or "aes" or "glass" to your external dac depending on what inputs and outputs you have on the jitter and dac devices. also, the toslink cable decouples the AE or computer from indicing any noise from these devices to the jitter/dac.
also, looking at the esoteric dacs, they use either burr brown or analog devices dacs in there standalone dacs. i really don't look at internal dacs since external dacs are much better. |
the AE hookup is not different than what you get with the transporter. all the AE does is to accept a signal wired or wireless from a central computer. that is exactly what the transporter does. so if you think that the AE device is inferior to the transporter in that function, you need to explain why because they both accept "bits" from the network. No, I do not necessarily think the AE is inferior in its wireless transmission of bits. My comments regarding the AE are regarding its function in sending a digital stream directly to a DAC. I've tried it with four - a Benchmark, Wavelength a Muse 2+ and a CAL Alpha (the Muse and Wavelength required some kind of adapter as I recall - but it did not address jitter). It is in that regard I found it's performance lackluster. Soundstage was very limited and dynamics were inferior to the same DAC fed by a CD transport via coaxial cable. My results were consistently poor. I have NOT used the AE with a jitter reduction device in between, as you suggested. You are correct, I missed that detail in your post. Sounds like a good idea. I cannot explain why the performance was inferior, I can just try to convey what I heard. To clarify, I use a Modwright (modified) Transporter. I do not have experience with as stock Transporter. I can assure you that, though it may have the same capabilities as an AE, it does not sound like one...at least to my ears. You made some inference that I was making claims to the effect of it being be-all-end-all front end. I made no such claims. I simply said it's the best I've had and experienced. I'm sure there are many others that do a fine job and even excel. I'm just contributing my own personal experiences and, as with anyone else's, it's worth exactly what you paid for it. Take it with a grain of salt as you would any advice. Try this stuff out as you see fit in your own system, your own room, your own music and with your own ears and find out what works for you. I didn't make any comment at all about the DAC in the G5. I have no opinion since I've never tried it. My intuition is to get the signal OUT of the noisy electromagnetic environment of the computer box ASAP doing no conversions at all inside that environment. The Esoteric D-05 that uses an AKM AK4397 DAC is a standalone DAC. The Gryphon I mentioned is a player. Alex Perchev also uses AKM DAC's in his APL players. My comments about the WAP devices and the G5 are strictly aimed at the G5 towers that the poster said he had. They are constructed entirely of aluminum. There are issues around transmission because of this construction. I've found it best to use an external wireless device, and the Airport is excellent, and easy to setup. It will also transmit throughout a house and outside. Internal cards in my g5 will not transmit 20 feet. This is a known issue. I suggest before you try another type of device you do some research on that issue. As I said, there used to be a few companies making external antennas that mount on the back of the G5. I don't know how effective they are. The one Apple produced is useless in my experience and I believe they stopped selling it. Perhaps some other internal card actually does a better job, but I'd suggest you do some research. If you find something that works well please post it here as I'd also like to know. I'd prefer to have an internal device rather than another box on my desk. In that regard I'd agree with that advice. |
something lost in the translation. i never mentioned about a dac in the g5. imo, there is no dac that is worth anything that resides in a computer. jax2, i think you are confused on what a wap device is. it is a device outside of the computer. you go over and over about the crappy g5 wireless card. great, don't use it. i am saying don't use it, use a wap device to create a wireless network in your house. very simple to do. ignore the apple card. ignore the wireless functionality of the g5 tower. create a little network using a 5 port hub and a wap and you can connect all the wireless devices to this network. you can also use a wireless router. there are many different choices. just get over the g5 wireless option.
you missed my point about what the AE, squeezebox, and transporter do. they all receive wired or wireless signals from a transmitting source of some sort. they all have network capabilities that resend data packets if any packet gets corrupted. the ae and squeezebox devices do the same functionality, the transporter adds a dac to the picture. you can't say that the dac in your $2000 transporter sounds the same as a $10k esoteric dac just because you might use the same chip (the esoteric dacs i looked at don't use the akm chipset). There is a big difference. |
Yep, I guess I misunderstood you. We agree on a wireless device outside of the tower.
In over 25 years in this hobby, and now more than ever, I'd opine that a price-point does NOT necessarily determine how good a component will sound. I don't use a stock Transporter. I didn't say a TP sounds like an Esoteric DAC, just that the two shared the same choice in DACs (in the case of the model I pointed out - yes, they make more than one model). Of course the implementation and the rest of the component will have impact on how it actually sounds, as will the rest of the system. I've never compared my TP or any TP to an Esoteric DAC. Have you, or are you just speculating based on their price? Have you ever even heard a TP? Or a Modwright TP? You've kept comparing the AE to a TP and I'm pointing out that one is quite different from the other in the internals, not the least of which is the DAC. As I said, my listening with the AE was consistently inferior as fed through toslink to an external DAC (no jitter device in between). The Modwright TP is one of the best digital front ends I've ever heard. It warrants no comparison to anything I've ever heard from an AE via an external DAC. My experience there is limited to the DACs I listed, and clearly that does not include the way you've suggested implementing a de-jitter device. I would not spend time doing any critical listening to the AE setups I've tried out. YMMV, and your de-jitter solution sounds like a step in the right direction. Bravo. Again, I'm just conveying my experiences here, and I suggest anyone make their own judgments with their own ears. |
i do know dan, been over to his house before to listen to his modified dvp9000es players when i was thinking of modifying mine a few years ago. i have not heard his modified TP, but i have listened to his preamps and cd/sacd modified players. |
Seems that the original poster would be advised to read this:
http://www.stereophile.com/accessoryreviews/505apple/index.html
Addresses the jitter issue, or lack thereof when using the digital output of the AE to a device such as a DAC that will take a digital inputed signal. |
