Micro SX-8000 II or SZ-1

Fm login, agree. That´s why I changed my approach. It makes sense with a bearing of a RX 5000 but not with the air bearing of the SX 8000. I installed a flywheel using a VPI double motor, the SDS fine & precise speed and power controlling and an original Micro Seiki wire. You my have a look at my page.

Thuchan, the mater is not in the bearing’s type but in the self-damping characteristics of platter. The 8000 has fine platter that is good enough itself, particularly if you have white platter. The 5000 has very ringy platter. It might be addressed by many ways (I did it is quite successfully with my 5000s) but the flywheel has absolutely no benefit for elimination of the 5000s problem. The fly wheeling helps with stabilization of speed but it never was Micros problem. The moment of inertia with 5000 relative to the torque (if the belt it properly hangs) is very good with those tables and stability is never an issue. Micro use to make a very own flywheels for 8000 but looking deeper into the subject I recognized that was all BS and it more serves the owner ego then the purpose of sound reproduction. Anyhow, I do not think that flywheels are a fruitful direction to get improvement with Micro tables. If you are looking for improvement then work with your speaker and amplifiers. The Micros are one of the most bass-capable turntables ever made but your bass is severally compromised with your SS amps and with 4th orders band-pass woofer in your speakers. Addressing it will produce more result then attaching Jupiter to your Micron as a flywheel.

No matter if you use the RX-5000 or SX-8000 II- the advantage of a proper aligned flywheel in opposite position to the motor drive is in the fact that the bearing will be free of horizontal force.
This will minimize bearing noise to the lowest possible - in any bearing.
The result in sonic terms will be increase low level detail, ambience and dynamic transient resolution.
Important factor is, to bring the string/belt tension to equal level (as close as possible) on both - flywheel and motor.
So - the advantage has nothing to do with bearing type - its a simple force vector model of two forces eliminating each other.

FM Login, I am very happy with the bass reproduction by the SS-design provided by the Classè Omegas, the Stealth Dream and the Wilson LS (not to mention the 1812). It produces a very warm but stable sound. If you have the chance drop in and you might change your opinion quickly. I mean - if you not preconditioned and belonging to a church of SS-design refusers. Nevertheless there is always room for improvement.

Fm login:

How did you resolve the ringing gunmetal platters? The only solution I know is either a damping mat - which can work well, or applying a damping material inside the platter - which would concern me from a perspective of rotational balance.

Steve

My personal experience reflects Dertonarm's statement: with my HS-80 flywheel in place (and now in a line with equal tension on the threads), ambience and transients--already wonderful--has improved. So, my ears disagree with Fm login's statement that the HS-80 has no benefit on Micro turntables. But, that's just me!

Thuchan, I am not preconditioned by anything and partially by any “church”. I based my judgment upon my experience, it well known.

Dertonarm, I am sorry but you are wrong. There is no such a thing as “proper aligned flywheel in opposite position” and there is not such a thing as “free of horizontal force”. The situation when the horizontal bearing is free from any force is the worse situation as the microscopic bearing beatings become the subject of belt slipping or “wind blowing”. The best configuration in belt drive is the situation what the platter with it’s microscopic horizontal bearing beatings is biased by a small belt force.

Here is no minimization of bearing noise if you remove the “belt bias”. You might accustom to light plastic TT but in case of Micro the belt bias is absolutely negligible coals to the platter momentum. If you once try to hold the 8000 platter then you would not daydream about its impact by a few milligrams of belt tension.

Also, Dertonarm , your comment about the result in sonic terms: “increase low level detail, ambience and dynamic transient resolution” is a celebration of typical audio BS. I can give you $10.000 if you will be able to increase the low level detail, ambience and dynamic transient resolution with any of my Micros by applying the flywheel. Now, how you are you willing to bet? How about to put your actions behind your mouth?

Kipdent, I had HS-80 flywheel a few years back. A friend of my got it and you used it with SZ-1. He also reported an improvement, but he (how ironic it is!) reported absolutely different improvements. So, I got HS-80 and tried to use it with 5000 and 8000 and with all my desire I was not able to recognize any single difference beside making the Micro’s motor to run a bit hotter.

Now, Kipdent, let me to give you some points that you might consider before recognition of impotent of ambience and transients from flywheel. You use threads, I use belt. There is nothing wrong with threads but threads are very sensitive to proper tension. 1 mm different with threads is the same as 10mm difference with belts. The tension is important and to be able to say anything further I need to know what the tension you use. How long your platter will spin after you stop the power on the motor? Another point – you lay records directly on the metal platter. This way of doing the things has A LOT of problem. The “yellow” platter was made by Micro to accommodate the very cheap, bad sounding, SS amp from 70s. The “yellow platter” if it played with no proper TT mat has a LOT of colorations. You might want to review and then reevaluate you feelings about ambience and transients.

Kipdent, i have the same impression when I tested the flywheel on my Micro - the sound improved. But maybe I hear this only because it should serve me as the owner... as FM login states. So what.

Fm_login, sorry, but I am way past that period in my life when I was young and angry enough to react to a comment as sophisticated and throughout displaying deep audiophile and mechanic insight as yours.
Sorry that basic vector geometry is BS to you.
But that is certainly not mine nor Micro Seiki's problem.

Dertonarm, I passed the period in my life when I was trying to educate people. You stopped react because you lost your anger, I stopped to educate when it not worth it because I got wisdom and experience to deal with currently angry or formally angry audio people. I shared the facts, now to interpret them it is totally up you and others who have interest Micros. I would be worth to mention that I shared them not because my desire to argue with you or because my interest to educate you but rather to prevent you and you-like to spread disinformation and urban legends. If you have no sonic or mechanical insight on the subject then you probably shall not make the statements where you put yourself in a position of being a faulty authority on the subject.

Radicalsteve, applying a damping material inside the platter does not work, I have tried it. Using different TT mats do work very fine, try a sorbothane mat atop the Micro with a layer of very hard rubber atop of sorbothane. I can’t give you specific as too many variables involved but even a basic hard rubber later atop 5000 will do very fine. The 5000 is very simple and extremely good performing TT as is. People invent the false differences about turntables presuming that many logical concussion about TT design leads to sonic differences. In reality the methodologically properly to evaluate the differences in sound between two turntables is a quite complicated task… Anyhow, to ask for intellectual honesty and rational sense is mostly too much to ask from audio people.

What is here disputed about the Micro Seiki skeleton TT's was already done so widely and brought to conclusion by the later 1980ies.
Micro Seiki introduced the Hs-20 and HS-80 to further improve the performance of the RX-1500, RX-3000, RX-5000 and SX-8000.
This enhancement in performance was founded on increased inertia and decreased noise and wear in the lateral bearing because - proper applied and aligned (no problem at all - belt or string, you just need balanced distance, equal length or a decent spring-tension-gauge) - the lateral bearing is force free.
This - BTW - works on most if not all (direct TT's are an obvious exclusion and Idler-wheel-drive needs some different treatment) TT's, as it is a simple mechanic principle of force vectors eliminating each other.
Each and every bearing with a shaft - i.e. with a lateral bearing - being addressed by a string pulling towards the motor in order to apply any tension on the medium (string, belt, tape) spinning the platter will benefit from the elimination of that one-side force.
Lesser noise - lesser friction - lesser wear.
Its obvious - a simple sketch on a sheet of paper does illustrate the point and principle very nicely.
The dampening of the "bell-platter" of the big Micro Seki's was addressed by Micro Seiki's copper-mat and in the early 1980ies by several soft and hard platter mats introduced by japanese manufacturers to better or lesser results.
I have too seen Micro platters damped inside (not easy done with good mechanical results, as the coating has to be done very precisely and homogenous so to not ruining the inertia force of the platter) with very good results, but these were all further damped with acrylic-mats (glued to the platter...) on top of the platter.
The improvements with inertia units by Micro Seiki or custom made devices are sonically apparent to all audiophiles who care, whose set-up is capable to show it and whose hearing isn't deafened by dogmatic prejudice.
This - for once in our audiophile world of often nebulous results and experiences - is fully backed up by applied science and simple mechanical laws found in every middle high-school physics book.

And yes, - I have used the RX-5000 too and am currently using a highly modified RX-Micro Seiki ( 4 inch double platter with isolated spindle (no contact to bearing) and 38 lbs highly dampened platter - gun-metal and PVC) and will soon incorporate an inertia unit similar to the HS-80.

We all seem to be aligned then on our experiences of using a mat to dampen the ringing. I tried a variety of mats and materials on my previous RX-5000, from heavy gunmetal mats, passive vacuum platter from Audio Technica, other metal mats, ceramic, etc. and found by far the best comination to be a light but hard vinyl/acrylic mat from a source in Germany, along with the ST-10 stabilizer. This gave a dynamic, detailed and controlled presentation, holding the famous Micro characteristic accuracy of timbre and the ADSR envelope.

As some know here, I am shortly moving to the SXC-8000 Mk1 with vacuum platter, and so it will be interesting to hear the differences.

...by far the best comination to be a light but hard vinyl/acrylic mat from a source in Germany

Probably from DeltaDevice

**** As some know here, I am shortly moving to the SXC-8000 Mk1 with vacuum platter, and so it will be interesting to hear the differences.

Radicalsteve, so you were apparently the person who got the 8000 MK1 from this site a few days back. Congratulations, it was very good setup and it was not overly expensive price. You will need to re-service it and then pretty much forget about TT to the rest of your life. That TT will easily succeed over many today’s TT that are being sold for 7 times more then what you paid. The MK1 is considered less desirable then MK2 and cost less but I like MK1 more – it more flexible with organization of space. You got the best deal of all as you have the white platter. Most of the MK1 come with yellow platter and most of the MK2 comes with white. The only thing that you would need to decide for yourself is if you willing to use the vacuum hold down. The vacuum hold down is tricky you might play with it. If you decide to use then you can make a very-very thin but hard cut of leather that you would place between the Micro’s levees. It will not screw up the vacuum but it will create a decupling layer between record and metal platter.

*** What is here disputed about the Micro Seiki skeleton TT's was already done so widely and brought to conclusion by the later 1980ies. Micro Seiki introduced the Hs-20 and HS-80 to further improve the performance of the RX-1500, RX-3000, RX-5000 and SX-8000.

There is no such a thing as conclusion was reached in later 1980ies. Do you remember your setup in the later 1980? Would you go beak to that sonic result? Leaving aside on psychological moments of being younger… Besides whatever Micro Seiki or any other manufacture produces it is just what they produce. Micro Seiki is just a machine shop and they will cut anything they want you to buy. To make a final judgment about sonic benefits is not Micro Seiki responsibility by my responsibility, and yours… I made my experiment and I concluded that there is a certain patter mass after which any further increase of inertia moment becomes irrelevant in practical terms. The conversations about the minimization of wearing I juts discard as completely off the wall.

**** The improvements with inertia units by Micro Seiki or custom made devices are sonically apparent to all audiophiles who care, whose set-up is capable to show it and whose hearing isn't deafened by dogmatic prejudice.

I do not know. I do not hear well after my surgery a few years back and I do not have the capable set-up. After my wife and I had 6 childrens she does not allow me to pay music loud. But I have my amplified Radio Shake headphones that I think make me able to hear a lot. I did not hear any inertia improvements with 8000, but might be my hearing aid had weak butteries that day….

*** This - for once in our audiophile world of often nebulous results and experiences - is fully backed up by applied science and simple mechanical laws found in every middle high-school physics book.

It you care about the applied science, not the lever that people like to demesne at those internet forums then look for papers that represent of belt simulation as filtering devises, what the horizontal force on the palter acts the modification of the filter’s Q. The free-standing, or the latitude-neutral platter acts as the second ordered but the properly belt-biased palter more move the filter to the Bessel Q. You need to get a proper relationship between the patter mass and bias from belt and if you hit it then there is not father improvement, you might have twice more mass and inertia but it will just reset the need for different tension, nothing else. Sure it works staring from a certain mass of the platter. The 8000 is in the Zone of the right mass…. It is possible to do the same with lover mass but then you will need to make the shaft longer, the way how it is done in EMT 927 but this is a whole another story….

Its not about using a belt at all.
I would never use a belt - not on a Micro Seiki nor on any other "belt drive" TT.
A belt is always a source of instability and in worst case much more than a filter.
The RX-5000 and SX-8000 were designed by Micro Seiki to be used with string for best results.
With a string, fairly low tension and symmetrical positioned inertia unit we are looking at a kind of slip regulated drive.
In other words - the inertia providing the speed stability and the low tension string applied without horizontal force is just preventing the platter to get slower.
Its a tricky idea and it only works with fairly heavy platter (= high inertia) and force free low tension string drive.
No belt - no tape - no high tension and no horizontal force vector.
There were papers in japanese magazines floating around by Micro Seiki engineers in the early 1980ies addressing this principle.
And yes, - there were top-class set-ups with SX-8000 and RX-5000 w/inertia units and mats dead quite already in the early 1980ies - this is nothing the US-audiophiles discovered.
Some of the japanese audiophiles were already enjoying this when the majority in the western hemisphere still thought a scottish TT would be the very pinnacle of analog set-up.
Setting up precisely a RX-3000, 5000 or SX-8000 that way will provide you with the utmost speed stability and an extremely low noise floor and outstanding low level dynamics.
I know it - I've done it a few times.
Despite what some people may say otherwise, anyone in the position to try should do so and find out for himself.
I know that some here have already done so and know that there is much truth in what I've said.

"...by far the best comination to be a light but hard vinyl/acrylic mat from a source in Germany Probably from DeltaDevice" ........

Syntax, not only are you correct, but if memory serves me well, you were the person kind enough to give me that lead a few months ago?! The store on ebay is acryteller.

If anyone is interested the link is: http://stores.shop.ebay.ca/acrylteller-de-shop__W0QQ_armrsZ1

Steve

*** I would never use a belt - not on a Micro Seiki nor on any other "belt drive" TT. A belt is always a source of instability and in worst case much more than a filter.

Come on, it acts as filter equivalent no matter what you do and an no matter what coupling topology you use between two axis. Also, I disagree with your comments about belt. Starting with some palter mass it become irrelevant what you use if the tension of your drive is properly applied with respect to marital of the belt/string. I used what imaginable to drive heavy Micros: magnetic tapes, all possible string, many different types of belts… you name it. If methodologically properly each of them used then with the proper mass of palters there is no difference what drives the platter. I might talk about some VERY negligible differences but it is so minor that absolutely discard it as contrived differences and I have a firm believe that no one would recognize them in practical trims.

*** The RX-5000 and SX-8000 were designed by Micro Seiki to be used with string for best results.

It was not what Micro Seiki designer told me….

**** With a string, fairly low tension and symmetrical positioned inertia unit we are looking at a kind of slip regulated drive. In other words - the inertia providing the speed stability and the low tension string applied without horizontal force is just preventing the platter to get slower. Its a tricky idea and it only works with fairly heavy platter (= high inertia) and force free low tension string drive. No belt - no tape - no high tension and no horizontal force vector.
There were papers in japanese magazines floating around by Micro Seiki engineers in the early 1980ies addressing this principle.

And there was zillion pares advocating opposite as well. All those people who write those papers know very little about sound. If you so love the Japanese magazines then go to Japan and listen their funny rice-paper sound. I hate the Japanese sound, it derives from non-morphemic tone of Asian language and I do not value it too much in my reference scale. I wrote about it a lot in past. The Japanese magazines write the same as the US magazines do. Our writers say that on their tonearms they can clearly hear sound of tide on Atlantic Ocean but they have their paper-made TT sitting atop of TV or hoods of working car. Do I need to pay attention to the “writers” or to my own experience and my own definition of success?

Radicalsteve--thanks for the acrylic mat link. Since none on their website seem specifically made for Micro Seiki platters, which model did you choose?

Kip

this the right one for the Micro: Plattentellerauflage aus PLEXIGLAS® 5mm stark D=293mm

Steve

Ho, crash, clang, this no funny non-morphemic sound pepa-tt on top of ah TV, and caan listen to ocean...

It is an interesting point you make, and a Mr. Steen Duelund (bless his souls) had noted the different Asian physic --- shoulders closer to the ears and that as far as he found, attributed to a different sound appreciation.

If you once had the opportunity to listen to Chinese Opera (and in deed survived the occasion) you will absolutely appreciate that there must be a difference here. Head splitting crash cymbals and lots of nasal ha's and ho's is mostly outside of the western ears' idea of 'music' in deed :-)

Well, - on the other hand (chinese doesn't have that much in common with japanese as it might seem from the western point of view....) there was true audiophile high-end in Nippon VERY different from what we think/thought by looking and listening to Technics and Sansui low-fi ss amplifiers in the late 1970ies.
And western Jazz and romantic european symphonic Classical music was - and is - big in Japan.

There were sophisticated SET-amplifiers, complex super high efficiency horn loudspeakers and big analog turntables widely common in Japan by the late 1970ies.
But - I admit - not in late maoistic China.......

We just didn't noticed back then.
We thought the low-fi components they exported and sold to us were all they knew and could do.
Big mistake.
Most - if not all - what we "discovered" in the 1990ies was imported via France from Japan with a solid 20 year delay.

FM_login,
I am not sure I understand the "non-morphemic tone of Asian language" bit, and I am certainly unaware of how such might relate to "Japanese sound". Japanese language is structurally morphemic, and is not tonal in the way that Asian languages are generally labelled tonal. If "tone" refers to intonation, Japanese is not structurally dissimilar from American English - the intonation is different but the structure of intonation patterns is not.

I think talking about the shape of physique is cute but almost meaningless; in terms of physique the more important aspect might be seating height, as affected by ratio of upper body height vs lower body height combined with average height - the average ear-tuchus span as I think it is technically called :^)...

As for what the Japanese sound is.... some of the favorite tables out there are Linns. For those who play with heavy platter Micros, the most popular arm/cart combos seem to be SME long arms with SPU carts attached. And usually all this is played through a class A amp, in many cases SET.... is that "Japanese sound?"

MUCH more important would be average difference of listening room environment.

FM_login
This is a funny understanding of the Japanese audiophiles you have. Having lived in Japan I have seen listening environments which do match your description (TT on TV etc.). But I have also seen very sophisticated environments, carefully planned and executed - also in big rooms, believe it or not.
And to be honest how many of the listening rooms in the western world are carefully planned and executed?
Maybe it is always the same with our preconceptions we carry around with us. Maybe you think of me as a German going every weekend to a Volksfest in Bavaria, returning home and playing Marschmusik all the time...

Thuchan, I could not agree more...
Preconceptions and "experiences" long gone and the result of different conditions no longer apparent, do sometimes cloud the sight and most often do serious block new paths which could lead to much better results.

SET amplifiers, LCR RIAA triode SRPP-preamplifiers, big string driven TTs, complex super sophisticated horn speaker systems were all there in Nippon as far back as the early 1970ies.

The low-fi amplifiers exported and sold to the western hemisphere were not the best they had to offer.
We just thought it was.
In fact the japanese high-end audio scene were 20 years "ahead" of us back then.
All what was "discovered" in the early 1990ies was in fact imported from Japan via France.

Thuchan,
>>> Maybe you think of me as a German going every weekend to a Volksfest in Bavaria, returning home and playing Marschmusik all the time...<<<

Ja, ja, ja, but you will! Weil se Marschmusic is se best, 1,2,3, Gleichschritt, jawohl...

Or are you by any chance into Chinese Opera then?! Badenweiler- und Radezky-March definitely be easier on the ear. (and all from se 12 inch Tonarm - heaven :-)

I guess not having been there leaves one to certain pre-conceptions, true.
Number one of them --- horror of horrors, some huge horns never mind with SET's, in very small rooms. (Chinese Opera what else?)

There was a 2 part presentation in Image HiFi some time ago and the presenter tried pretty hard to be all positive - alas kind of caved in at the end of part two.
He was invited to some of the top HiFi collectors and their sundry friends.
Well, I give him 10/10 for going through it all with ~ 'highish' spirits (Like Jeremy Clarkson driving cars in India... on Clarkson's car world).
It is a few year ago, but I'd say not one single system on display in A'gon could look quite as 'whacked out', for loss of a better term.
So, the TT may go right back up on the TV --- because is were we will hear the ocean...

Thuchan, you are talking about “environments” and the system setups, which is very primitive and incorrect way to understand what I said. T_bone the derivation of Japanese listening audio preferences from phonetic structure of Asian language is not a fact but a proposal I made a few years back, when I was arguing this point at my site at that time. There are plenty research done how different culture process sound and reflect with spiritual and ecstatic responses. I have my own views as well but it is not the point that I would like to advance in this thread. I mentioned it in context of Dertonarm proposal that Micro was made by God to use with strings and his bringing the “Japanese magazines” and experience of Japanese crowd to back it up.

I am well familiar with cult that took place at that time around strings, and the zillion techniques ho to soak the different material strings in different marinades in order to get improvement in the strings theory. Yes, there was a fashion to it in at that people, as anything else in audio the fashion was based not upon a lucidity, common since and listening experience but upon a foolish artificial idea. You can even find at that time people traded the “secretive” samurai ways to tight the strings… It is ridicules! I belt from a slow torch motor is too hard drive to a platter but a knot on the strings is invisible! Wonderful theory!

The true is that when people use light TT then how you drive of TT affect sound. In case of use heavy platter and proper balance between platter and stator the sensitively of TT to external forced become much negligible and many of fantasies that that people apply to TT logic is not applicable to TT with heavy platter and proper mass distribution. People are accustomed to endlessly tweak the TT searching the differences. The best example of it the Walker’s turntables (and many others) with zillion adjustments and each of them changes the TT sound. That is ridiculously-stupid thing to do and it is more celebrates ignorance people who make and use those TTs. The whole point of Micros that they are insultingly simple, have own “default” sound proper sound and, trust me, it is VERY difficult to change how they sound. This is the whole point – the “default sound” (or better to say the opportunity for the default sound ) is built into the design that illuminate the need to do those endless experiments trying to change the TT sound. Micro-Seiki topmost turntables are an opportunity do not do that entire BS that you guys do, I have no idea why you do not USE this opportunity.

I did look at the playback installations of some of you and I kind of confused what the hell you do in audio. Some of you have 5-6 turntables with 10-15 tonearms, which is a strong induction in my mind that a person can be disqualified to make comment about sound. After all audio is not about accumulation and cataloging the differences, if somebody do not know what they do in audio then they do not know. A good performing turntable, perhaps two, with 3-4 tonearms/cartridges is an absolute maximin that a person needs to address 100% of all tasks of records playing. If a person can’t do it by those means then person is clueless about ether sound or what he does. The heavier Micros are a good platform to render this task. It has good default sound, it allows use multiple arms and it is very difficult to screw up with this sound….

I do not think that I need to advocate the heavier Micros for this people in here as it looks like there are plenty Micro users in this thread but I wonder why the heavier Micro users are not set yet that make them to do further actions with TT. In context of this thread it might be mentioned other changes that people might make with their playback it order to get truly better sound, why to keep pondering that poor Micro, leave your Micro-Seiki alone. Work on other aspects of your playback, it will bring you more true results.

PS: I intentionally did not go into addressing the fantasies about of “SET amplifiers, LCR RIAA triode SRPP-preamplifiers, big string driven TTs, complex super sophisticated horn speakers”. It is not the subject of the thread and the participants apparently too lightweighted to understand the subject less superficial.

Oh Axel, you are a fan of Marschmusic and all prussian accessories, didn´t know that. Are you exercising in the house or in front of the house - I mean are you playing a Marschmusic instrument too?

Hi Thuchan
Jawohl! I have my Schwarzes schtend in se line, by 6 sharp. I take se appel, sen sey can go abgetreten! (Else gets kick in se back-side). Sey love it wenn we sen play the Kaiserwalzer afterwards.
So very beautiful it is always, and wis all de kultscher und alles.
Greetings

Dear Fm login: +++++ " whole point – the “default sound” (or better to say the opportunity for the default sound ) is built into the design that illuminate the need to do those endless experiments trying to change the TT sound. Micro-Seiki .... " +++++

I owned through the years three MS TT's: two 1500 and my current RX 5000.

I like the " intrinsic " performance of the 5000 but as you know it is a unfinished product where we need to add to the unit : footers or some kind of damping platform, a TT mat and a platter damping.
I address all those factors trying to have a better Micro performance and IMHO I have success about.

I think that this kind of " help " ( in the case of the RX 5000 ) is need it and not because I try to change the Micro self sound ( that I agree can't overall change it. ).

The Micro TT's are very good units but not perfect and like almost anything else in audio needs some kind of " help ".

Now, if some of us really can hear tiny changes in the Micro performance due to those " help " is something that you, me or any one can't argue against/favor because the differences in each person perception capacity and of course the differences in the audio sytems/room and system set-up.

About your whole comment: +++++ " Some of you have 5-6 turntables with 10-15 tonearms........" +++++

I can tell you that thank's to all those tonearms that I have on hand I can obtain almost always the best quality performance of any cartridge I try/test that if ( with the vintage and today tonearms designs. ) I owned only two tonearms maybe I can't do it.
This is my approach on the subject, which yours? how do you know ( with 1-2 tonearms. ) that what your cartridges show is the best that can achieve?

+++++ " Work on other aspects of your playback, it will bring you more true results. " ++++, I agree.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

Thuchan
sorry, I forget to say. Se Badenweiler Marsch, you see is ONLY for se inside in se Haus. Se peepl will hav se wrong impreschn if it is on se outside, ja.
But to make it better we are now doing se practice wid de Carmen "Einmarsch of se Gladiatoren" before all is in line and schtaend to attenschn. Und sen the Walz, wenn sey can walz-off after we finischd.
Just to be korrekt, it is not a lafing matter, you see.

*** I like the " intrinsic " performance of the 5000 but as you know it is a unfinished product where we need to add to the unit : footers or some kind of damping platform, a TT mat and a platter damping. I address all those factors trying to have a better Micro performance and IMHO I have success about…. The Micro TT's are very good units but not perfect and like almost anything else in audio needs some kind of "help".

Yes, you are right, but it pretty much it. BTW, Micro did BA-600, a pneumatic platform for 5000 as well as own Micro mat. Still, the isolation platform I do not consider as a basic past of TT, it rather a consideration how a given TT system is installed in a given environment. Also, I do not use 5000 but 8000, so have less “problems”….

*** I can tell you that thank's to all those tonearms that I have on hand I can obtain almost always the best quality performance of any cartridge I try/test that if ( with the vintage and today tonearms designs. ) I owned only two tonearms maybe I can't do it. This is my approach on the subject, which yours? how do you know ( with 1-2 tonearms. ) that what your cartridges show is the best that can achieve?

It is evolutionary thing; I use to run 6 tonearms and now I am removing the tonearm #4, living the 3 tonearms/carriages that I really use: mono, stereo and dirty stereo. I do not look for “best quality performance of any cartridge” – I know what I get, I know what efforts requires to get what might be gotten from sound, I know what kind reimbursement I get for my efforts. We all adults and we all know not mitigate our efforts per amount of gratification we get for the efforts. Knowing what I want to get from audio I do not find that relentless pressure of “best quality performance” interests me. If I want “best quality performance” then I shot doe my phonostage and tune on my FM tuner. Also, let me give you a tip: the “best quality PERFORMANCE” has absolutely nothing to do with a topology of quality of your or my turntable.

Fm_login when you went from two to one TT and 6 to 4 arms was that upgrade or had you decided what arms/carts are best for you? In your opinion do you gain most analog experimentation from step-up/phono?

Dear Fm login: +++++ " I do not look for “best quality performance of any cartridge” – I know what I get, I know what efforts requires to get what might be gotten from sound, I know what kind reimbursement I get for my efforts " +++++

I know too but I'm a little on the near " perfection " path on that cartridge quality performance subject and that's why I go through a different path that you go, IMHO nothing wrong with that: a different approach, that's all.

Yes is evolutionary and my target is to have several/different cartridges mounted at the same time in the same tonearm design.

About your tip I totally agree with, this subject is something that till today I try to " support " and made/make advise on it. Good to hear that there are people that agree on this over-stimated TT subject.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

**** Fm_login when you went from two to one TT and 6 to 4 arms was that upgrade or had you decided what arms/carts are best for you? In your opinion do you gain most analog experimentation from step-up/phono?

My setup is openly-known and my evolution with it publicly narrated. My latest evolutionally position that “an ultimate” turntable must have 3 arms/needles: one reference stereo, one reference mono and one “second type” stereo for dally use. I do comment about the specifics of the arms/carts/step-up/phono. Sure, I perfectly understand that it might be use from more arms/carts but there is celebration of result and there is a self-glorification of means to get the result. I very much know the difference. I have a few 5000, arms and cartridges that are sitting as a dead ballast in my storage – I probably need to get rid all of them. I wish people do not ask pictures when they buy audio as to lift those Micro tables is do dams difficult….

Fm_login, yes long ways to result deserve self-congratulation, Ive read but SU2 cannot be bought and SU1 cannot be found so what else you recommend. Have you tried Shelter phono with 901?

Axel, I see you are a real expert in a very special kind of music. I would never laugh on your great remarks but it fires my imagination and I am trying visualizing how you exercise in front of your bamboo hut shouldering your arms and protecting against wild animals... Am I wrong?

I think, Fm_login speaks lot of truth!

You can't change 'intrinsic' sound of a given TT a whole lot. Agree 100%
Multiple tone-arms/cartridge combos, while it is cool to have, can't necessarily give you best sound that 'you' desire or what your perception of best sound is.
You would have may be one or two combo/sources that meets your mental 'picture' of perfect sound. That you will always go back to when you really want to listen to music. The others are just toys that offer you variety and something to talk about. Sure they helped you arrive at your perfect sound forever, but after that they are useless show/bragging-rights pieces. I, too have some of those.

The comment regarding 'asian' sound is curious and thought provoking for sure. I guess all the components, depending upon where they 'come' from have their signature quality.

It is indeed stroke of luck if you hit a jackpot when a system just clicks ( to your ideal of perfect sound) without having to do any 'external tweak' of addition. But where is the fun in that?

FM_login,

I did look at the playback installations of some of you and I kind of confused what the hell you do in audio. Some of you have 5-6 turntables with 10-15 tonearms, which is a strong induction in my mind that a person can be disqualified to make comment about sound. After all audio is not about accumulation and cataloging the differences...

Not all of us are blessed with the absolute knowledge of what we like best (and the absolute knowledge that it is indeed, the best) when let loose from the womb. Some of us have to experiment to find out what we like. That said, learning about what else is out there is itself a learning experience about music reproduction. I have acquired a bunch of tables (and a lot more vinyl) because I am learning what I like by listening, not by reading what a self-declared expert tells me I should like. I have started getting rid of tables, and will continue to do so because I have reached a certain set of conclusions.

As to TT tweaking and isolation platforms... In my case, I live in a city in an earthquake-prone zone. There are trucks and cars rolling past my building constantly. The difference between my SX-8000 (or my other non-suspended/non-isolated tables) on an air/magnetic-bearing isolation platform and the table on its own is night-and-day obvious. Despite your suggestion that the SX-8000 does not need isolation, I will go with what my ears in my environment tells me is right (rather than trying to dampen the tectonic plates, the rumbling of magma deep under Mt Fuji, or decouple my apt. building from its foundations). As it happens, I also work on other parts of my system (and I imagine others do too) but I don't feel the need to post that on threads about Micro Seikis.

I am obviously ill-informed because I don't your site or system. I am, however, curious as to why you would have a "daily driver" cartridge which different (and probably lesser) than your "reference" cartridge. If it was really worth listening to your reference cartridge on all kinds of music, would you not use it on a daily basis? I listen to the carts I want to use on the music I want to listen to. That's my reference.

Nilthepill,
I agree that is indeed a stroke of luck when the system clicks. I have found a few table/arm/cart combos where it just clicks, but I am also inclined to say that "it just clicks" is also largely a state of mind.

T_bone, where did you see me said that 8000 does not need isolation? Well, I know that “those” people understand only imperative sentences and do not use own minds….

Anyhow. I have written today a large conclusive post and posted it, withdrawing myself from this thread. For whatever reasons the post disappeared. I saved it and I will rep-post in at my site as I think it does a good conclusion for this whole thread.

Thuchan,
>>>I am trying visualizing how you exercise in front of your bamboo hut shouldering your arms and protecting against wild animals... Am I wrong?<<<

Ah, very well, you have se right sing of wat you see. No, no, you are not wrong. Und senk you for wen you like set schtrong Marschmusik. Very moving, und sen manchmal I get tears in my eye. I sink it is the right one, oh yes - weil in secret, alles is sonst so left, ja.

On the more serious side, I got some other then comic relieve hearing about the function and performance of tt's: >> “best quality PERFORMANCE” has absolutely nothing to do with a topology of quality of your or my turntable. <<

Excellent, now I can rest in peace, and go looking for some more MM carts instead :-)

******On the more serious side, I got some other then comic relieve hearing about the function and performance of tt's: >> “best quality PERFORMANCE” has absolutely nothing to do with a topology of quality of your or my turntable. << ****

Well - having learned this now, we can rest indeed in peace and concentrate on cartridges and tonearms....
Or maybe "best quality performance has absolutely nothing to do with" these parts of the front-end either...?

Dear Fm login: Sorry for my ignorance: which is your site address?, thank you.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.

I thought that statement referred to Performance being better Live that from Playback system?

Anyway, Raul I think you might have an interesting discussion with Fm_login regards step-ups pros and cons.

Herr Tonarm,
aber jetzt, ich darf doch wohl bitten!
Don't you go and close the door on the next most fun item to play with. In any case since I have been switching and swapping carts quite a bit of late - I dare say there is some BIG, MAYOR,...
Well anyway I guess it was a joke of your's after all, else I might be just thinking of a place called Garbersee, ja?! :-)

As the FM man said:
...if someone will bring a good flywheel to me I might put it on use, otherwise it will be as is: with no bass, collapsed soundstage, with no inner-details and a lot of background noise… :-)

I do start to understand what it feels like having no Micro AND no flywheel!
Is why we might again concentrate on carts?

Or as Dr. John has it:
You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with mister in between... :-)
A.

Dear friends: Any one of you know which is the Fm login site?

Thank you.

Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.