I started a separate thread on the subject so as not to hijack a Merlin specific thread.
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1301063837&openmine&zzPubul57&4&5#Pubul57 |
Was listening to Gillian Welch tonight, and it dawned on me
how damn good these speakers are, then I noticed that the
VSMs were "removed" from the the Stereophile
Recommend List, probably not listened to recently or some
such idiocy or other nonsense. I really lost a lot of
respect and interest in the list, though I'm sure it is of
interest to novices. For one of the finest speakers in the
world not be on the list does a lot more damage to the
credibility and usefulness of the list than it can ever do
to the speaker. It is simply ridiculous to
"remove" a speaker that has been on there for so
long, that has only gotten better, unless they are reviewing
the new iteration to place it where it properly belongs next
to a whole bunch of other speakers that cannot hold a candle
to it. If this is the sort of activity that leads a
manufacturer to come out with version 3.1 to get reviewed or
"reconsidered" by the press, then it speaks badly of the
press that is suppose to be serving the interest of the
audiophile looking for the best gear. |
paul, don't let it get you down. the vsm was in class a for 7 years. i think they leave a product on it for 3 years. the vsm m was placed in class a in 2004 and then in 2007, the vsm mx. they kindly extended the mxe version there for a while too. they have been more than fair. i spoke to john about reviewing the vsm mx-r with masters but never heard any more on the topic.
i think i would rather have the master vsm reviewed anyway.
have a great weekend.
bobby |
It does not get me down one bit:) It simply questions the sanity and value of "the list". But if the Master VSM is coming soon! then all the better. |
I recently received an email out of the blue from a dealer who wanted to disagree with my review of the Master VSM's. It's obviously not that he's even heard them, as I believe there are only two or three pair in the world. But he took issue with what he called the planned obsolescence of the design, which makes no sense to me whatsoever.
The notion that the evolution of the VSM's can be classified as "planned obsolescence" is absurd on the face of it. It implies that Bobby was aware in 1994 of the benefit of the non-developed BAM, but withheld that knowledge; that he knew that battery power to the BAM would further improve the sound quality; that he knew that lead-free solder improves the sound quality; that Duelund capacitors that didn't even exist at the time would improve sound quality; that wire that didn't exist at the time (I'm referring to Cardas Clear) would further improve the sound, etc. Nope. In spite of the emailer's rhetorical question, "Where's the R & D?" my guess is that it took substantial R & D to make each of these discoveries. Discoveries, I might add, that clearly and substantially improved the design insofar as SOUND QUALITY goes.
The fact that the remarkable potential of a simple design has been progressively revealed is a sign of patient mastery, as far as Im concerned. Hence, the Master VSM's have earned the title. Just confirms the adage: K.I.S.S.
Personally, I find Merlin's approach far more ethical than the practices of other companies that ride the waves of this year's latest and greatest audiophile trends to boost their bottom lines. The fact that most of the upgrades did NOT render the speakers obsolete, but rather allowed owners to upgrade their current speakers seems to be the opposite of planned obsolescence. |
Vandersteen and Atma-sphere also take a very similar approach to product development, their products are sorted out and refined from an original good idea that stands the test of time. And for the most part, users can move with the changes by upgrading what they already have - no need to throw out the "old" to keep up with imrpovements. I think this is how a world class product comes to be and what it means to own such a product. |
i totally agree t, that is why i do things as i do. but not all agree or see the wisdom. i saw no reason to junk a perfectly good product for a newer one. i think most that "heard" a comparison from early to later product would understand. you cannot make everyone happy that is for sure. and if it is the guy i am thinking of, he was a dealer over 12 to 14 years ago and if he is going by what he heard then, which by the way was liked by most, then he has heard nothing! don't you just love it when fools take sound equipment and music and turn it into a contact sport. to some, their opinion matters and yours does not.
best, b |
02-18-11: Bobbyapalkovic
glory, we are near the end of development of the vsm project. after sixteen years and six new versions of it i have gone through the whole thing numerous times.
Bobby, does this mean you are going to come out with an entirely new model? |
nope, the vsm/tsm mmi, mx-r and master will always be on the price list. why give up on something you have been finessing for 17 years? the exhaustive r+d will be transfered to the sub and 3 way.
when a newer technology comes along that we can incorprate into the vsm and tsm, we will do so. many do this to models that have been in their product lines for decades.
ok?
b |
|
It's funny, I dumped my VPI turntable for the very reason that I felt it was designed obsolescence. After all, platters were acrylic then combination of metal and acrylic, then all metal. There were other things that bugged me about that approach, not just the platters.
At the start I liked it, (options to upgrade at a reduced cost), but eventually it felt like, (and I know it's a personal thing so please don't turn this into a VPI thread as it's just my own personal opinion), it was going in a big loop and designed to just keep you moving through products and spending money.
I've not felt that way with the Merlin speakers. I get what that dealer is implying but I just don't see it here. The improvements are real, and I don't think that it would have been reasonable to expect them all at once. If that were the case nothing would ever be released as we'd all be waiting for it to be "done" before it was available.
Just my two cents.
PS: Now when will the damned sub be ready! :-) |
I agree, but I also think that owners of the original Vandersteen 3, or Atma-sphere M60, or Merlin VSM from years ago still have first-rate gear with no real need to upgrade, unless they have the desire to take the original up to the nth degree, but they were all well thought out and engineered from the start, why the launched products destined to be classics - oh, the CAT SL1 is also like that. No drastic changes needed when the designer knew what they were doing from the start. Don't want to "upgrade" one of these classics, you don't need to, but you won't regret it if you do. |
Will Beryllium be in the three-way? Will it Clear Beyond as the internall wiring?:) |
And can it ever be as coherent as a two-way with bass augmentation to make up for the "missing" third driver? |
i know you will both like the direction it takes.
no beryllium and very coherent but for bigger volume rooms.
b |
Hi all,
I would like to correct my statement on Mar 24 about using TAD Hibachi II with my VSM-MXe
Currently, it's ...stupid good :-)
I made 2 mistakes when post comment on 3/24:
1- These Hibachi need more than 50 hrs break-in
2- I "insert" my SBAM in wrong position: should be between CDP and SLP05 (it was between SLP05 and Hibachi)
After 100 hrs break-in and correctly position of SBAM - the whole system is sound darn good, stupid good for $500 monoblocks :-) |
We look forward to your VVSM! |
Bobby, I don't profess to understand the specifics around making a speaker that's easy to drive, (I mean I know what implies easy to drive but not how you manufacture one that's easy to drive). That being said, is that something you factor into the design of a speaker or is it just a happy coincidence and do you expect new speaker to be as easy to drive as the current models?
or is that getting too detailed and/or too soon to tell? |
Will a BAM be required for the new speaker? Premium/Studio finish? Z-feet or something better than the Z-F that's easier to assemble? No wooden dowel needed(the monkey on back/squirell in my pants...take your pick)? |
too soon to tell howard.
b |
Bobby,
I now playing ARS Sonum Filarmonia SE with Merlin VSM-Mxe with Super Bam and thinking to buy a new Ayon Spirit 3 to replace the ARS . I heard that the Ayon tube integrated better than the ARS ? Any advice.
Regards,
Sean |
Don't know the Ayon too well, heard it RMAF, but the Ars is voiced with the Merlins in mind, and given how important the amp/speaker interface is,hard to imagine why they Ayon would be any better matched to the Merlins. The Ayon uses KT-88s? If so, also important to know the Merlins seem to play particularly well with EL-34s. Would be interesting to hear what Bobby thinks of the Ayon, if he has ever heard them (with his speakers). |
crt, i have not heard it so i cannot say.
who said it is better than the fila and why? what speaker was used?
what paul said is very well put.
i am not a fan of 88's as a rule.
i prefer e34l's and the fila was tuned to sound right with the merlins. |
Paul/Bobby
How about VSM-MXe with 845 SET ? :-)
My new/used pair of CAD805C will be here next week
My guess is the Merlins better match with 845 than 211
? (Yes, my pair has 845/211 switch mods)
My pre is Cary SLP05
Thanks
Thuan |
Bobby has usually steered me away from SET, but I'm sure he will pipe in:) |
I had the VSM-mme with a Art Audio 845 SET and a deHavilland UltraVerve pre. All I will say is that I wish I had that set-up back.
Tjuan98, if your system and room are set-up with some care, I believe your are in for a treat.
Cheers,
Scott |
I had the ASL 1009's(845) for a spell. |
Great SETs, but I would discuss with Bobby before goinf for an SET with his speakers, not that they won't sound very good, but he does seem to have the opinion that it is not an optimal choice for his speakers - one man's opinion, but a pretty good one coming from him..... |
Not that you should not trust your own ears and taste:) |
Hi all,
So far, CAD805C sound great with my Merlin
My first time hearing SET sound - awesome
These 805C are "serious" amps - HUGE
Filar looks like toy when sit next to these monos
I know it's not fair when compare Filar with $16K pre/amp combo. I enjoy tube roll with 805C (can only afford Shuguang Black Treasure/TJ/Full Music 845/211/6SL7) - not those WE300B which cost a small fortune
My Filar is up for sale soon |
Thuan98, I am sure the CAD805C is a wonderful amplifier. The Fila looking like a toy? That I'm not so sure about, a small jewel perhaps:) As Daniel Webster said about Dartmouth College, "it is small, but there are those that love it." Glad you like your new amp, I'm sure your Fila will sell quickly. |
Wasn't the 805c reviewed as "chocolately sounding" by one magazine? Before Bobby told me about the Fila, I was leaning towards the Art Audio Jota(high current version)or the monoblocks. |
I have heard the Cary 805C's several different times in different systems over the years. I have not heard the Fila but sure like what I read. Than98 I would keep that Fila around awhile before selling it, you might reconsider but then again your initial love affair with the beguiling richness of the 805's may last forever, in any case enjoy! |
Tab, I used the lower output Jota monos before I got my Fila. The Jota's are beautiful and lush, but ultimately not as realistic and resolving. Midrange is rich and warm, but they lack the frequency extension, at least with the VSM's. I'm very happy with the Fila and feel no need to spend another 10K for OTL's, which is probably what it would cost to get to a significantly new level. |
"and feel no need to spend another 10K for OTL's, which is probably what it would cost to get to a significantly new level."
Totally agree. You would need to go the OTL route to really get better, but I do think you could do so for a bit less than 10K for an MP3/M60 used.
For the "sane", the Fila should keep you smiling a long time. |
My "dream" amps aside from the Jota were:
Wavac 833
Wytech 211
Any Lamm
Top Shindo.
BAT VK-75(had one, but Bobby said it wasn't a proper fit-I'm sure Dave Garret disgrees), VK-75(almost got one).
Preamps:
Blowtorch
CJ Art(any version)
Two-chassis Lamm
Calypso
Hovland HP100(which I had)
Any top BAT. |
