As mentioned earlier in the thread, I have a FPB-300C (the 400cx predecessor). Keep in mind, even from stand-by status, this amp seems to take about 30 minutes of playing to truly sound it best. As you have found, you can tell its working by the heat. You play quietly and it stays coolish-warm. When you turn it up, it gets downright hot
dont touch your forearm to it when playing loud (from my experience).
Also, I began with the 8TC speaker cables (pre-Krell in my case), and I can tell you from my own experience that there is more "life" in other cables. The 8TC is decent, but your system has surpassed them for sure.
Regarding glare - to be honest, changes in my source have had the most profound effect on anything that could be considered glare. I have an Esoteric DV-50, and I didn't realize how much glare there was until The Upgrade Company worked it over. It is very strange to me how the music can become more extended at the top-end while at the same time having less glare and being easier to listen to, but that is what happened in my case. My description seems contradictory...I know. FWIW, only after the Upgrade Company did the work on my player did I ever notice significant changes with ICs and PCs as well. Before then, changes in those cables were nearly impossible to detect.
As far as speaker cabling; I have heard big changes in different speaker cables, and surprisingly, I have ended up with an all silver cable. I can hear it now from those reading this
eeesh...Krell AND silver...sounds bad right...not at all. These no-longer-available silver speaker cables give the music more body and "roundness/realness" than anything else I tried, and it is the only silver speaker cable I ever tried
I think.
As a suggestion, you might want to try Reality speaker cables. I tried them a few months back and I felt my existing cables were better (and should be for the price); nevertheless, the Reality cables gave a nice warmth and musicality to my system. They are not at all expensive and have a good return policy. Actually, Id call them a bargain for the money.
Just my 2 cents
maybe it worth less than that. |
Dbld-thanks so much for your write up, helps to hear you had a similar experience.
I am getting a set of Aud 23's just to listen to in a week or so. I will start my search with those as far as speaker cables goes, then move along if they don't work to my liking. Synergistic Research? They make a cable specifically for B&W.
Although the culprit could be my interconnects in the end...Nordost from source to pre, from pre to amp. Possible. |
I would also suggest looking into the Cable Company's demo library. You pay in very little (5%) but get to try all kinds of stuff (PCs, ICs, and speaker cables). They also have a database of experience from other users and their specific gear that might also help speed up the process for you.
I am doing this with PCs. Buying and selling on AudiogoN is a valuable resource for sure...if done right, but this way you know exactly what youre getting into ahead of time. Plus, that 5% goes towards any purchase you might make.
I havent actually done this yet myself, so maybe I am missing something. I have reserved some cables that should become available in the next week or two. You are also limited to their predetermined lengths. I think it is 1.5 meters for PCs and ICs, and 10 feet for speaker cables. |
So at the moment, I am doing an A/B test between two single ended IC's in my system from source to Pre. One is my current Nordost Tyr and the other a lesser IC in the Nordost line up...Interesting differences. When I pull the Tyr out I loose a fairly noticable amount of sharp detail, and the other cable seems to round off the edge a little still providing acceptable detail, but overall I lose something. Not sure how to identify it completely, maybe channel seperation, detail, quietness, definately a smidge of emotion. I love the detail I get from the Tyr, but things are becoming clearer to me as I do tests like this. How much I can accompish with cable changes..Interesting learning process.
In the end it is probably just these speakers are limited with my new set up at moderate to high volume levels. Pisses me off, but I have only me to blame on that front. Personally I don't want to lose the detail from the Tyr to get the slight reduction of glare from the lesser IC. One thing is for sure, in doing this I am reminded that Tyr is a very impressive IC. And like you guys have said, contributing to revealing system weaknesses. |
Jc51373, I would suggest trying something different than Nordost altogether. I am not sure if it is revealing system weaknesses or could it be that it is just plain wrong in that mix of components? |
Could be...My experience in the past with Nordost was too bright. |
This amp is getting easier and easier to listen to...I underestimated how unbroken in it really was. It was only used for rear channels and only used twice...Maybe it actually wasn't an exaggeration. More and more I listen, more and more I get easier, sibilance fades.
Either way, I am getting 803D's within the next month or two..I freakin love em, and they are perfect for my set up. |
Jc51373, great!
But I still think you should check out sp cables and ICs. |
Audphile...I think I am going to tackle that as a last step. I have always done things out of order and it seems to make things more difficult. What do you think about Kimber Select with this mix? Smooth and detailed. |
haven't heard these cables. I think if you're getting the 803Ds then wait with cables. What will work now with your current speakers may not be what you want with the 803Ds. So if you are going for the 803Ds, change the cables then. IMO |
Cool thanks for all the help...the fact you have played with all this stuff and have experience has been a tremendous help to me. And you are spot-on with all your comments. thank you!
I sold my 804Ns today, so they are on their way out, and I am going to save on the side for the 803Ds instead of using plastic-you get a better deal with cash anyway. Should have the remaining amount in about a month! Not bad right? Please, tell me it's not bad, cause I feel like I am going to go certifiably crazy without my music. Will definately be a withdrawal period.
PS-listened to the Aerial 9s today. Very nice speaker, nothing like a B&W. Very neutral, very unexciting looking and sounding-which is not necessarily a bad thing t be neutral. They did sound very nice though, but something about B&W has me hook line and sinker-no matter what I listen to. Also, I was all but done with this dealer when they told me a 803D has the same sound as an 802D, except less bass. They sound very different to me, and most others agree. They said they didn't even feel it was necessary to show the 803D. I almost laughed out loud, and I bet B&W would love to hear that. : ) |
I think you made the right choice. You obviously liked the speakers a lot, so....
It's also a good thing to take a break from this for a while. Usually works for me. I get to appreciate the capabilities of the system once everything is back in place. I had no amplifier for almost 2 months at one point. It's tough, but it's not bad.
803Ds should be lots of fun!
Keep us posted. |
Good point. I will let you know once I get em. |
In response to the McIntosh producing power into impedance. The 400 WPC into 8,4,or 2 ohms is a manufacturer published MINIMUM. Dynamic specs are not published and I verified this with a McIntosh Rep who assured me the 402 was capable of far more than it's faceplate nomenclature, especially when driving into descending impedances. All other comparisons aside between the Krell and The Mac, this particular point of contention is completely false. Although they may have different outputs into those impedances, stop at 400 the MC402 does not... |
10-01-07: Mhelming
... Although they may have different outputs into those impedances, stop at 400 the MC402 does not...
Mhelming Oh yeah? Where does it stop then? At 402? Based on what I heard from this amplifier and its capabilities of driving a difficult load, I even doubt it makes 300w/ch so whatever that McIntosh rep said, I'd divide by 2(into 4) and by 4(into 2 ohms). |
What were these difficult loads (specifically) low impedance speakers, large speakers? And what are you quantifying this with? Wattage? Current? Is this literally a by ear measure? I ask because I'm curious and as a relatively new-comer to the hobby (a year and a half in) I'm fascinated at the difference between ratings in power and actual sound. According to Mc there is greater than 100 amps current output per channel which would equate to a lot of watts, correct? I came from a Bryston 14b sst and like the sound of the Mac much more. It's much easier to listen to. |
Mhelming, yes, by ear measure. If it fails this test, it doesn't really matter how it looks like on paper.
I auditioned the MC402 with B&W 803S. Did not like the way it handled the B&Ws, which are not an easy speaker to drive as the impedence goes into a 3ohm category.
Sound was good on normal listening levels but once pushed harder, it really didn't stay together that good.
Very much possible that you prefer Mac sound over Bryston...depends on a system context. I can see that.
Enjoy your MAC! |
As I mentioned above, with below 2ohm dips, my speakers at the time were very current demanding. The Mac had absolutely no problem at all handling this.
Neither did the Krell for that matter. |
How hard were you pushing it to hear that? I am wondering what the next steps will be as I want to eventually move toward 802d's. I talked with McIntosh (Chuck as listed on the support site). He did speak a lot to the fact that the 803 is really a 4 or 5 ohm speaker with a few 64 ohm spikes that lead B&W to list it as an 8ohm speaker. The 802d is only harder to drive spending most of its time around 3-4 ohms. Is this information correct?
He also told me Mac is about 30% conservative, meaning out of the 4 ohm taps the 402 pushes closer to 600 watts per channel. I tried switiching around to the 8 ohm taps and heard a difference, but liked the 4 ohm tap better. He also told me 501's were the same amplifier circuit with a little more output capability due to power source. He advised the step up to be toward 1201's, not 501's, which would just be a lateral move when compared to the 402.
Interesting as I just want to arrive at an amp that will get the job done!!!! The 402 seems good for now, but we'll see when I arrive at the 802. Any thoughts? |
Get the 802Ds first and see how it goes from there. I would think the Mac's recommendation on the hiogher end monoblocks is a good one....if you want to stay with McIntosh amps. For B&Ws the more power the better. But I heard the 803Ds wtih the MC501 amps and they did sound good.
There are lots of good amps out there, but if you like the Mac, go for the amp with most power if you;re talking B&Ws.
Just my opinion. |
I am wondering what the next steps will be as I want to eventually move toward 802d's. I had the 802D's with the MC402 and didn't like it, I have heard/read that the 501's do much better with them. |
My 402 failed about a month back (a strange erratic static sound when all is quiet without the amp connected to any sources, just speaker cables to speakers and on) and I couldnt get a replacement from Mac so my dealer cut me a deal on new 501's and I got 'em. They are a noticeable improvement and I have my eyes on a D series speaker (most likely 803 as I can't really figure out what I'd do with an 802 in terms of size) because my dealer tells me there is a B&W 800 series price increase scheduled for 2008 (January) to the tune of 15-20%.
But to get back to the thread I heard 501's driving 803D and they were pretty amazing, and only slightly behind the 802D in midrange performance. However, the same rig with a 402 I found much less involving and with a far smaller soundstage and dynamic presentation |
Mhelming, 803Ds are great speakers man! Now you heard what I was talking about when you heard the 402 with 803D. I guess now you know why I'm not much of a 402 fan. |
Again on the power output of the 402: Mhelming is right - 400 watts are only the published minimum. The German magazine Audio reviewed the 402 and measured it and found, depending on the tap and the load, that the 402 was able to deliver up to more than 800 watts. I have Diapasons, which represent a 6 ohm load, and have them connected to the 8 ohm tap. From there, they get more than 600 watts sinewave, as was confirmed by a friend of mine, who works for one of the largest high end-importers here, and who came over with test equipment to check out the 402. He said it was one of the most powerful amps he ever measured.
Regards,
Florian Hassel |
Yeah I have spoken to the dealer and am trading my 803S for the 803D. I really do like the presentation. The tweeter speaks for itself and the added bass output capabilitiy coupled with the sweeter top end seems to breathe a little more life into the midrange. And when switched from the 402, to the 501 (with the caveat that the 402 is a great amplifier and I enjoyed it throroughly) things opened up yet again and really seemed to utilize the greater dynamic capabilities of the D vs S. Although the 402 measures powerfully, you are right Audphile, the 501 sounds more powerful at all volumes, and even at low volumes you can hear the higher current capabilities. I am in love with the 803D/501 combo and I highly recommend a listen to anyone. I have arrived at a happy home for a while after much shuffling in the last year (B&K to Bryston to Mac stereo to Mac Monos) with a very helpful dealer. |
Mhelming, you should not have written that - I,too, think about these 501s, and you only wet my appetite further...
Regards,
Florian Hassel |
Now you heard what I was talking about when you heard the 402 with 803D. I guess now you know why I'm not much of a 402 fan. I see this situation reversed. Having owned 802D's with the MC402, and other amps, I agree that it isn't best case scenario. Numerous people, including those here, have said that the 501's sound much better with the D series. The MC402 is a fine amp, it is too bad the B&W's don't sound good without massive amps. |
Florian,
They are wonderful amps and I really have yet to be disappointed in them, even when demoing them with multiple speaker brands. You can't go wrong and they have plenty of power to handle most any speaker, within reason and room size of course.
Brianmgrarcom, It isn't a situation reversal, just a recognition of gradation. I could have lived with the 402 for many years and been very happy. I ended up in a situation where it was a several month wait after the 402 failure and my dealer eased the pain of stepping into 501's. I think that that is one of this interest's greater aspects. The ability to compare and contrast and recognize difference, is not to swear allegiance or choose a "loser". I love most all of the Mac stuff I've heard when appropriately matched. With the 803D I just love the 501... |
